3D Printers

[Martin Boekers]

It seems like this has drawn some interest in another thread, so I'll be a "Good Boy" and give it
it's own space.

3D printing is cool, still a ways to go though. You can buy a small set up for about $5000 now.
Not super detailed and the pieces arn't very durable from what I have seen. More geared towards
prototyping

I do imagine a few problems in our industry, Everyone what's something for nothing as is, and
having to develop 3D files at a price we can sell maybe daunting. I have a pretty good imagination,
but I don't see these taking our industry by storm. Another tool for us? Quite possibly. I don't
see them doing much in signage, maybe some add on pieces? You know the trouble we have with
inks now, can you imagine the issues with the nozzles!

I know there are place online now that you can send them a file and they'll "print" a small piece
for $25 or $30 dollars. They also sell some artist pieces from stock.

There probably a few on this forum that have worked with these are maybe even own one that
can give some insight frome experience.

For those adventurous types here is a kit for under $1300. If you look close you'll see that the casing
was laser cut!

http://store.makerbot.com/makerbot-thing-o-matic.html

Rodne whats the "China" word on these?

One problem with technology is that everyone is starting to think anything can be done quickly, easily
and cheaply, Oh and of the highest quality also! I have had the the Wing Commander on Base aready
ask me about these for 3D modeling. So there are those aware of the possiblities.

[Mark Ross]

Anyone thinking about buying a Dimension printer, keep in mind, they hold you hostage (no BIOS or driver updates unless you are on maintenance). Also their cartridges are proprietary and have a special IC in them. You can't use other peoples materials. We have a dimension printer, and it is an older one but it works real well. A BIOS upgrade or driver update should not be allowed to be held hostage when I do all the maintenance myself on the machine (Saves a couple grand a year). So for dimension you have been warned. Maybe it is just that Epilog spoiled me with their excellent support, free BIOS upgrades and driver updates, I dunno...

[Mike Null]

Here's another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboxMsSz5Aw&feature=player_embedded

[Martin Boekers]

Mike that is absolutly AMAZING! They make the scanning and software seem easy, I just can imagine the learning curve!
I want one!

Mark haow about posting some pics of what you have done.
Is your software package as easy as it seems on Mikes video?

[Michael Hunter]

Have a look at thingiverse dot com

A year ago there were some good ideas, but the made parts were terrible.
These days people are showing off some really well designed and finished objects. Makerbots seem to have got much more refined.

HP are now shipping their Designjet 3D at around $17,500 : a similar price to a decent laser system and - it is claimed - easy to use.

I'm not at all sure that 3D belongs in a jobbing laser shop - the original thread was about teaching kids and trying to interest them in manufacturing/making things.
In my case, since nearly all my work is engineering related, I could make a good case for adding 3D to my business. A much stronger case than for a CNC router (which I would like to have) or even a cheap vinyl plotter.

When I decided to "do my own thing" back in 2003, it was a toss-up as to whether I would go for rapid prototyping or for the laser.
At that time, the system I was considering (laser-cured resin layer build-up) was good, but the parts needed a huge amount of cleanup before they were presentable.
I concluded that to get something off the ground in a reasonable timescale and without having to employ a slave to do the time eating cleanup, the laser was the better thing.

[Joe Kace]

I'm speechless, I have never even heard of this before. I want one too, great link Mike.

Joe

[Mike Null]

Back about 20 years ago before I retired we were designing a new dishwasher from the ground up (we did use an Italian sister company's design as an aid) Anyway we leased a stereo lithography machine for prototyping parts which appears to be the predecessor of the current 3d equipment. As I recall, our lease fee on that piece of equipment was in the high 6 figures. But we did introduce the best DW on the market and that forced the rest of the industry to follow suit.

[Douglas J Miller]

When considering a 3D printer, make sure you look at the cost of the consumables. HP's Designjet 3d materials are between $115 and $185 a pound, and you're pretty much locked in to buying from them.

[Dan Hintz]

You can buy a small set up for about $3000 now.
Fixed that for ya :) In the thread posted early last month I pointed to a desktop unit that was just shy of $3k. The price is getting attractive, even for the home hobbyist, but the speed isn't even close yet. When you consider a widget just a few cubic inches in volume can take numerous hours to print, well, it's no speed demon...

[Mike Null]

The high priced version was at least as slow.

[Zvi Grinberg]

Dear Friends,
I am in the 3D printing and 3D scanning business. My company is the distributor for Z Corporation in Israel.

The link above with the wrench shows scanning with ZCorp's ZScanner800 and printing with ZPrinter650 - HD Color printing.

I would put a disclaimer that the 3D Scanning has much more than seen into it, before the resulted cloud of points becomes a CAD solid model. I will elaborate in case people are specifically interested.

3D printing is diversed to several technologies. Most if not all are building models layer by layer.

The Dimension mentioned earlier and those cheap kits, build 3D models by extruding a plastic thread. This technology is called FDM (fused deposition modeling). It also builds a support structure to be able to build overhangs and undercuts.

This is a very slow process, and relatively expensive. You can build more than one part in a single build but it would be a serial process, meaning you will have to wait the summarized tie it would take for each separate model. Combined cost is more than 50 cents per model cubic centimeter. Could be more depending of amount of support required.
FDM models are also relatively coarse in terms of accuracy and smoothness. Horizontal surfaces are also very rough and small features are lost for the thickness of the thread.

Another technology is PolyJet. The head of the printer prints tiny polymer drops layer by layer and builds a model. This technology also requires that a support structure will be build to support overhanges and fill undercuts.

This technology is relatively slow, and expensive. (about 6-8 mm per hour, about 0.5 dollar or more per printed CC).
The models are relatively smooth, but tend to be sensitive to temerature and humidity.

The first technology for 3D modeling was SLA (Stereo Lithography Aperture). In this technlogy liquid photo polymer resin resides in a vat and polymers are crossed linked (polymerized) by the intersection of two light sources. There are several techniques, involving laser and UV to avheive this.
In this technology, there is also requirement for support, but of another nature. This is basically retaining structure to secure the model to the Z-Plate which is moving downwards for each layer.

Cost is slightly less than others, pace is slow.
Models are relatively accurate.

ZCorp technology is based on spreading layers of powder and then printing jets of binder with the shape of the section.
This is the only color technology in the market. Bu printing color binder of color on the section, each layer gets its color. You can take rendered models, attach images and textures and get full multiple color models.

With powder technology you do print support structure, as the "dry" powder supports anything built on it. This technology is the fastest and cheapest to build in the industry. It takes 15 to 25 cents per printed CC, and prints 1 inch height (Z) in an hour.

The powder models are porosive and can be infiltrated with selection of resins (epoxies, polyester, CA, WAX) to give it stronger features, withstand higher temp, and fill the pores.

There is SLS (selective laser sintering) which is also powder based. Laser beam melts the powder particles and model grows layer by layer. This is a very expensive equipment though.

There are several other technologies, but I belive you all got the idea.

With all the technologies the materials are propriety and all consumables can only be purchased from the manufacturer.

This was a brief review. I am at your disposal for further info.

Zvi

[Dee Gallo]

The most interesting use for this technology I've seen is they are making body parts for transplants using special DNA based "inks". Amazing.

[Martin Boekers]

The most interesting use for this technology I've seen is they are making body parts for transplants using special DNA based "inks". Amazing.


DNA inks!!!

I can see it now...."good day at the shop, printed 2 Tibias and a Fibula!"
or "How much do you guys charge for Femur?" :D

I hate to say it technology is moving faster then we can keep up with. It's only a
matter of time when someone will figure a way to make usable, non-traceable
weapons with something like this. :(

[Jim Good]

Martin,

My co-worker has an ear in a jar that was made by additive manufacturing, similar to the technologies described in this thread. It's pretty gross!

Some of the work that is being done is incredible. Northrop Grumman has flown some parts on a UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) that were made using an Electron beam Melting (EBM) process, similar to SLS except an electron beam gun is used for the power source. I've been working with this technology for about 6 years and it's pretty awesome.

I've made satellite parts, parts used for dispensing foam onto the external tank for the Space Shuttle program, and working on some missile parts for one of the defense contractors. This technology can make geometries that cannot be made any other way.

I'm about to start building some turbine components that typically take 12 months to go from design to having a prototype. With the EBM, I can have a part in their hands in a week or two. This project is for the Department of Energy (DOE). Hopefully, this will turn into a larger contract.

This technology won't make inexpensive parts, but I've seen titanium wedding bands made! Those were pretty cool.

I've used the Zcorp machine and it's really a nice machine. It does color so there is so much you can do. I did a model of the lunar lander vehicle I just finished integrating for NASA. It's going through it's test flights right now but I got a Zcorp person to build a model of it at one of the conferences I attended last year.

The biggest market is toy figurines for 3-D printers. The War of Witchcraft is a huge market. You design your figurine and place an order to have it made and shipped to you. These are done on a Zcorp machine.

Neat stuff!!!

[Martin Boekers]

Wow, you are into some pretty cool things!

I guess I ought to learn some 3D modeling software so 3-5 years when we can
get one In the shop I'll be ready! ;-)

I could sell a TON of custom action figures on base with just making the custom
heads to put on the action figures. That day is getting closer for a smaller unit.

http://herobuilders.com/customactionfigures/customactionfigures.htm

Post some of your projects if you get a chance. If you ever get in the Saint Louis MO
area look me up Scott AFB is about 30 East of there.

[Martin Boekers]

Jim, here's something you may find interesting. A friend of mine from my corkball days ( a traditional
South St. Louis game ) has been developing this for quite awhile. A friend of ours was born with a congenital
birth defect with a partial arm. For all his life he has used a "hook arm/hand" that opened and closed
by pressure he put on a should strap. Mark has come up with a segmented hand that works off the
same principal, but now can open to catch an object or even hold a bottle. These he hopes to manufacture
at a price all can afford. He's scheduled for an inventors show on PBS this fall in hopes to get funding. Not sure if he used
a 3D printer or not for his prototypes, but this is the type of project that this process would shine.

Check it out, there are videos on YouTube showing its operation too.

http://www.popsci.com/node/54124/

[Chuck Stone]

DNA inks!!!

I can see it now...."good day at the shop, printed 2 Tibias and a Fibula!"
or "How much do you guys charge for Femur?" :D

I can see it now "Hey, this femur is broken. We need to make a new one"
"No can do .. we ran the DNA and it seems that he never finished paying
the co-pay for this one, so his insurance company says to send him home'

[Dan Hintz]

Ever seen the movie Repo Men? ;)

[Anthony Scira]

Yeah if I need any 3d work done I will farm it out. Seems like unless you are a hobbiest it is a race to the bottom.

[David Fairfield]

You can actually use a laser like a 3D printer. Stack layers of material, cut to the proper outlines, to form a 3D shape, then putty or sand smooth. This is nothing new, model ship builders used this to make hulls from planks cut on a jigsaw, they called the technique "bread and butter."

Dave

[David Fairfield]

Here is a link, which illustrates how a bread and butter hull is built. The parts are cut from flat stock, according to topography, then glued together and smoothed. The thinner the cut out parts, the finer the contours. Locator holes, with dowels inserted into them ensures proper alignment.

http://shipmodeling.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8983&size=big

[Mark Ross]

HP's so called "HP 3D printers" are actually nothing more than relabled Dimension printers. And yes...of course they lock you down on materials...they all do unfortunately.

[Mark Ross]

All 3D printers have advantages and disadvantages. Z-corp's stuff is cool for color, but the powder is messy, the processes of cleaning is noisy and in an office environment it tends to put people off. You cannot do any sort of material testing versus real world material because they take powder and add epoxy to it. Dimension printers print ABS and if you want to do some rudimentary stress testing on a part that was going to be injected molded ABS anyhow, then you can.

Dimensions newer printers can print multiple color also. However, I am not being a spokesperson for Dimension because quite frankly I find their policy of holding BIOS upgrade and driver updates hostage because of their outdated maintenance policy of you must be on maintenance or else is ridiculous. It is the one expensive (over 10 grand) piece of equipment we have in our lab that does that. Our XRF system, our laser, and all our other expensive equipment, free lifetime bios upgrades, drivers, and tech support. Becuase of this, we will not be buying another dimension printer.

I have been told to look into the Objet stuff by my boss. We really wish one of the companies could print clear materials. Some print translucent, but nobody does a true clear.

We use our printer when we design injection molded plastic parts. Showing someone something on a computer screen versus the whole 'touchy feely' thing is a plus. Not to mention I have a wicked cool star wars chess set that I printed...lulz...did I mention I make custom lego's too? Am I a cool Dad or wut?

[Jeff Belany]

Just yesterday I was looking at the videos for UP! Personal Portable 3D Printers. (wwwDOTpp3dpDOTcom) They have a model that starts at ~$2600 and uses an additive process instead of the powder. Looks real cool. Have no idea how much the consumables are. Take a look at their videos.

I have 2 questions -- first, on the video of the powder printer making the crescent wrench, when they scan it, how does the system figure out the internal spaces to make it work? I can understand if they used CAD drawings buut how do they do it with a scan?

Second, where do you go to get an original model to be scanned or input into a 3D printer? For example: you might see souvenirs of famous buildings (like the Empire State) for sale as resin casts. But, where would you go to get a model to make a mold from? I have a couple items of local interest that I think would sell as resin casts. I know there are plenty of places that can make them but I'm not sure where to go to get an original made. Do the casting companies do this? What do I need to provide them? Obviosly I have never done this and don't know where to start. Any ideas?

Saw this technology on TV lately with Jay Leno using it to make antique auto parts in plastic to use them to make molds for metal parts. He said it used to cost thousands to have a part made by a tool & die maker that he now does on a 3D printer for a couple hundred.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[Martin Boekers]

Jeff,

I think they left out a couple of steps in the scanning.

Casting companies will either do the modeling for you or outsource it.

I have a few ideas I though about getting custom resins made.
They usually have minimums of anywhere from 25- 300. You give them
a photo or whatever you have and they work on the modeling.
Most manufactures like PDU, Marco etc will provide this service.

As for 3D printers you provide them art work in a 3d file that they support.

Check these guys out. They make the 3d Prints for you and you sell
them through them. Haven't tried them yet, there are a few companies out there like
them.

www.shapeways.com/ (http://www.shapeways.com/)

[Dan Hintz]

on the video of the powder printer making the crescent wrench, when they scan it, how does the system figure out the internal spaces to make it work?
It doesn't. They use some serious creative licensing with those videos and fail to show you the behind-the-scenes CAD work required to clean those files up.

[Jeff Belany]

I figured they had to do some CAD work. No way a scanner can see inside a tool. Makes for a cool video. I guess not the first company to make demos that don't show all the steps involved. I remember years ago when my company bought a laser. I know the boss (who bought it) was impressed by the 3D "capability" of the laser. What they didn't mention was the $2000 upgrade and the steep learning curve to do 3D. And, the extremely long time it took to make even a simple 3D wood item. It was pretty obvious that it was 'cool' but was not very cost effective.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin