Administrative WARNING about Rant Threads

[Keith Outten]

Before You Rant Read This
December 20th, 2010

"It is the intent of SMC to permit the airing of concerns regarding the suitability of a particular product, or the quality or sufficiency of customer service provided by a vendor in any particular instance provided there is not a breach of contract component involved.

However, these rant types of threads often deteriorate into a "piling on" and develop a very negative tone. That doesn't assist other viewers in assessing the overall advisability of whether to buy this particular product, nor to assess the overall customer service provided by that manufacturer/vendor.

In order to be fair to the many vendors that provide woodworking products who are not represented here, the following policies will be in force:
The original poster must have first contacted the manufacturer/vendor and have attempted a solution PRIOR to posting the thread.
The original poster should provide factual details of the problem, and details of efforts that have been made with the manufacturer/vendor to rectify the problem.
Subsequent posts by others must be limited to suggestions to the original poster to assist in rectifying the problem - not to pile on because you had similar problems.

SMC is a woodworking forum. The intended purpose is to provide a community in which useful information may be shared among our members. Threads that do not achieve that purpose will be locked, or removed as necessary." SawMill Creek is not a Court of Law and we are not in a position to judge a breach of contract case here, therefore SawMill Creek will not become a stage or a courtroom for a one sided legal dispute, it just isn't our mission.
.

[Dan Hintz]

Keith,

For clarity, you may want to provide some examples of breach of contract... it would help people decide what is/isn't a rant before they post.

[Mike Null]

Dan

This is the SMC position.


SawMill Creek is not a Court of Law and we are not in a position to judge a breach of contract case here, therefore SawMill Creek will not become a stage or a courtroom for a one sided legal dispute, it just isn't our mission.

[Chuck Wintle]

There should be no reason to malign/slag a company, store or an individual but legitimate gripes should be allowed as it helps consumers make better choices for products ans services. IMO

[Dan Hintz]

Dan

This is the SMC position.
Mike,

That quote still doesn't help people understand what "breach of contract" means, and without a good understanding of the definition (for which examples would help immensely), most people here won't know if what they want to post crosses the line into that territory.

[Keith Outten]

There should be no reason to malign/slag a company, store or an individual but legitimate gripes should be allowed as it helps consumers make better choices for products ans services. IMO

Chuck,

You're absolutely right, but some of the problems we often see here are:

_People who believe they are right and they aren't.
_People who jump to complain and haven't even contacted the company to seek a suitable resolution.
_People who post their rants and when the company contacts me they can't identify the person as a customer. Using an anonymous username here to post a public complaint is totally irresponsible.
.

[Bill Trouard]

I feel for you guys. as someone who owned and operated a very active automotive forum dedicated to SLK Mercedies, it seems no matter how you deal with a post someone will be unhappy. You are walking a fine line. I know from dealing with these issues over the years. The hardest part is trying to be neutral especially when dealing with post that was not putting a sponsor in the best light. You are correct in saying that there are always people that have no knowledge if the situation jump in just to escalate the thread into total chaos, but on the other side of the fence that is why some people join forums. To get help or support information when companies or most if the time the staff deal with issues. I agree it’s hard to make the call between a legitimate issues and a bashing thread.
I do not agree with how it was dealt with, but it’s your forum to do as you wish. I would have edited any offending post and let the poster know why it was moderated and possibly lock the thread. But the way I look at it when entire threads are removed from the forum it sure looks like the forum is protecting a sponsor or possible future sponsor. And I see that no different than editing out any negative reviews of products. It’s just not the best way. I know when my moderators were doing that I was seeing loss of income from supporting members and started seeing post on other sites about us saying that we over moderated the site and did not allow anyone to question sponsors. The public is fickle and will turn on you for the simplest things.

I did read that thread and could see some of the instigators posting, but on the original post complaints I can somewhat agree. I have almost been the owner of a few grizzly items like a band saw, table saw and plainer. Then each time after speaking to sales or support I was disappointed with the “I do not care attitude” I was presented, maybe could have been a bad day for the guy the first time, but over a 6month period and 4 calls I can say I ended up purchasing other brands. Also they always seemed to be out of stock for month on everything I asked about.

Just my thoughts, this was not meant to offend anyone.

Regards
Bill T

[Phil Thien]

I feel for you guys. as someone who owned and operated a very active automotive forum dedicated to SLK Mercedies, it seems no matter how you deal with a post someone will be unhappy.

And not only that, but the threat of lawsuit is pretty frightening. I realize that, in the end, SMC would come out fine even if someone was using the forum to be a raving lunatic. That is, SMC isn't responsible for their posts. But a legal battle could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars nonetheless. Something a big manufacturer can afford. I imagine SMC cannot.

[Jeff Nicol]

For anyone to not understand what is "Right" and "Wrong" with SMC's rules for posting inappropriate reponses they should print out a copy of the rules and read them before they post to a thread. To pile on is a simple thing, that if anyone and everyone puts down or trash talks a product or company, no matter what has happened to you or someone you know is still uncalled for. In response to the original starter of the thread all responses should be based soley on first hand knowledge and not filled with negative adjectives just for the sake of to get others to follow that line of thinking.

If we were allowed to berate and put down each and every company, supplier or individual there would be no useable information on the forum, just negativity whitch leads to a forum disbanding or the barring of all violaters fo the forum rules, then these banned individuals will go to other forums and rant and put down the other forum. Reminds me of why I was so happy to graduate from highschool and get away from the childish actions.

So with my normal long winded rambling, what it comes down to is what Keith says is what goes, and the MODs will keep up in line when we bump up against the boundaries. I know this because I have pushed the boundaries of the rules, but not for being mean spirited but ignorant, and we know that ignorance is not an excuse.

Just my thoughts to keep the peace,

Jeff

[Bill Trouard]

If we were allowed to berate and put down each and every company, supplier or individual there would be no useable information on the forum, just negativity whitch leads to a forum disbanding or the barring of all violaters fo the forum rules, then these banned individuals will go to other forums and rant and put down the other forum. Reminds me of why I was so happy to graduate from highschool and get away from the childish actions

Jeff

Like I said its a fine line. I do not like bashing threads myself. That is why you have a TOS and rules dealing with that subject on your forum. Like you said Jeff they will go to other sites if you ban them, if you continue to delete threads without good justification you will loose the good members also to other sites. Because most members do not know the details of why just that it was deleted. That is why I found that editing the offending post out and if needed a post at the end of the thread and lock it, but to just delete it is bad for the forums image. I deal with websites and forums for a living. As the owner of a Webhosting business (just do not have the time to run forums full time) I deal with lawyers more often than I care to I have many as customers. As far as having some lawyer contact me, most of the time its just dealing with tradmarked logos/images. The occasional supina for weblogs or user information. but as far as the forum owners being liable to a lawsuit for something posted on a forum I have not seen it. They can not even make you remove it without a court order. if its a trademark issue they will provide you the proper registration information in writing and by law you have 30 days from then to remove it. but when it comes to comments posted you have no issues.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

There are several lawyers that are members here. One of them posted earlier this year of a court that found that if a website is moderated, it could be held responsible for what was allowed to be posted there. I

[Bill Trouard]

Bill,

There are several lawyers that are members here. One of them posted earlier this year of a court that found that if a website is moderated, it could be held responsible for what was allowed to be posted there. I

If you were Notified in writing with proper proof that someting was false and you failed to take action, then yes you could also be found partly responsible. In common law jurisdictions and the post contained, slander, malicious, false, and defamatory statements that you knew first hand to be false the "yes again".

Defamatory statements that disparage a company's goods or services are called trade libel. Trade libel protects property rights, not reputations. While you can't damage a company’s "reputation," you can damage the company by disparaging its goods or services. Because a statement must be false to be defamatory, a statement of opinion cannot form the basis of a defamation claim because it cannot be proven true or false. For example, the statement that Bill is a short-tempered jerk, is clearly a statement of opinion because it cannot be proven to be true or false. Again, courts will look at the context of the statement as well as its substance to determine whether it is opinion or a factual assertion. Adding the words "in my opinion" generally will not be sufficient to transform a factual statement to a protected opinion. For example, there is no legal difference between the following two statements, both of which could be defamatory if false:

"Bill stole $100 from the corner store last week."
"In my opinion, Bill stole $100 from the corner store last week."
Since its not SMC making these statments the offended party would have to notify you in writing first to allow the information to be reviewed and action be taken. The offended party could just not slap SMC with a lawsuit. If sites could be held liable for every thing posted on the web we would have no review sites at all or forums.

I will step down from my soap box now.

[Keith Outten]

Over the last nine years I have developed a good idea of what the majority here feel is best for our Community. I receive plenty of feedback via our Private Messaging system that reinforces decisions I make most of the time. I also know that there will always be a small number of people who will disagree with decisions made here but as I have said many times before it is the majority we try to keep happy, never the minority.

Clearly we are protective of our advertisers, if I told you anything else you would immediately know that I was bending the truth. We must be sensitive to concerns that advertisers have here, if we aren't they will leave and this Community will cease to exist. There you have it, this way you don't have to speculate concerning how we feel about advertisers and every one of you who prefers free access knows that this is the way it has to be.

This is where I remind everyone that we used to be a self supported Community without any advertising. It was the majority here that wanted us to convert to the current format.

From my vantage point any Rant that involves a woodworking machine manufacturer is rarely worth reading. The real jewel here is in our threads about woodworking, this is the reason woodworkers gather here. So, we will continue to support woodworking topics as our one and only mission. I realize that when someone is having a problem with a machine or vendor they often feel the need to seek help from others or possibly advice from someone who has had a similar experience. Morale support rarely helps anyone acquire corrective or preventative action, the better tact is to contact the company involved and work with them to solve the problem directly. The secondary problem I have with Rants involves the reputation this Community would earn if we allow runaway rants to steer us away from woodworking and the impact it would have on our ability to connect woodworkers to the companies that build our machines.

I will also admit that I will remove any thread or delete any post when I think it is in the best interests of a Member here, specifically any post that might put someone at risk of a legal challenge. I would rather be accused of censoring than see someone here sitting in a courtroom who may lose their home or life savings because they made a statement they could not prove to be factual. Even though our forums are not at risk of a legal challenge I really don't ever want to see anyone here suffer or go bankrupt trying to defend themselves against a company that can afford the very best legal staff. If you think this hasn't happened here you're wrong, so far my track record as a peace maker is perfect, if I ever fail the word will spread real quick.
.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

Sometime in the recent past...I believe earlier this spring a member here who is a lawyer replied to one of these threads. In it he quoted a recent court decision which basically stated that if a website was moderated, the owner and staff could be held responsible for the material posted there. This member quoted the lawsuit and court where the decision was rendered. I wish I could find the thread so I could quote the information.

[Bill Trouard]

like I said, Its a fine line you have to walk a few times in my post.
what use to bother me more than a rant thread was menbers sharing pdf manuals, instructions or anything other than their own informantion through the pm system. that will put you directly on the hook for providing a file shareing service. I see lots of post for that here, most of the time members do it corectly by providing a link to the manufactures site. other times you see, PM me and I'll send it. I have seen site owners get into lots of legal issues with that. If you operate a website with public post, the possible legal issues just never end. That is one of the main reasons I sold my last forum. the latest case law around tradmarked names like grizzly, Rikon or whoever owns the name requires the ®​ and ™ be after each name. I now do this with word replacments kind of like you do to replace curse words. for the name Rikon to appear legaly it would hav to be Rikon®​ or Rikon™.
Though most legal issues can be taken care of with a good solid set of rules and TOS and when ever its updated force all users agree to it upon entry to the homepage.

I did not mean to offend the Admin or Moderators here, It seems that I have though. Maybe my post should also be deleted since this type of threads is best left for private viewing.


Have a good night guys.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill......you certainly haven't offended me.

You can certainly disagree with Moderators or Administrators here as long as it's civil.

[Peter Scoma]

I am curious as to what the moderators recommend forum members do when they have a repeatedly bad experience with a company, have made multiple attempts to properly work through the situation and have not been able to come to an agreeable resolution. I do think it is certainly ok and within reason for mods to ask that such threads not be posted anywhere on this forum, but I think it is important to decipher if this is or is not the stance of SMC.

[Keith Outten]

Bill,

No offense taken and thanks for your contribution to this thread.

It is my understanding that forum owners are carriers similar to the phone company in that they are not responsible for content that is provided by a Member. We must remove any illegal public content when we are made aware of a problem by a proper authority.

Our Terms of Service (TOS) clearly state the intent of our service and provide the necessary instructions that all members of this Community agree to when they register.

Moderators are not subject to any legal challenge based on their duties here, they are not employees and they are not paid for their service hence they are not allowed to make or enforce any policy that would constitute a legal responsibility on their part.
.

[Keith Outten]

I am curious as to what the moderators recommend forum members do when they have a repeatedly bad experience with a company, have made multiple attempts to properly work through the situation and have not been able to come to an agreeable resolution. I do think it is certainly ok and within reason for mods to ask that such threads not be posted anywhere on this forum, but I think it is important to decipher if this is or is not the stance of SMC.

Peter,

Don't Rant!
You can certainly discuss these types of situations in a responsible manner providing the factual details without mud slinging or making inaccurate accusations against an individual of company. We require that you make an attempt to resolve any conflicts directly with the company involved before you make any public statement here. The reason for this requirement is that it is the courteous thing to do and it follows this Communities standing order of being a friendly environment. Everyone here is expected to be friendly and courteous all the time, to be less than that in regards to a commercial vendor is the same as being disrespectful towards a member of this Community.

People need to also think about their expectations for creating a new thread, if their goal is to harm anyone in any way that just doesn't fit who we are and what this Community is about. These are not rules created by Administrators here it is what the majority of this Community prefers. Finally we are definitely not like any other woodworking forum, I admit that right up front and it is by design. I really dislike being compared to other online communities and to hear someone challenge the way we function based on a situation that might be tolerated elsewhere. If you spend five minutes here reading in any of our forums you should get the idea that something is different about this place.

I don't mean to pick on you directly Peter I am just trying to answer your question so don't take my response personally.
.

[Larry Edgerton]

The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews. I understand why it has to be this way, and I do see some people getting carried away with their venom, but that is just human nature.

The lawyers win again.......

Larry

[Dan Hintz]

Don't Rant!
You can certainly discuss these types of situations in a responsible manner providing the factual details without mud slinging or making inaccurate accusations against an individual of company. We require that you make an attempt to resolve any conflicts directly with the company involved before you make any public statement here.
This raises an interesting conundrum, one which I have struggled to find a meaningful halfway to...

If a person is required to resolve any conflict with the company first before posting here, there's no point in posting here at all to ask for help/suggestions... it either gets resolved or it doesn't, but the forum is not allowed to hear about it until it's over. On the other hand, once that person reaches a point where the conflict is obviously not going to be resolved to their satisfaction, they also can't post because anything they say may disparage the company's products and/or service. It's a no-win situation.

Should they post in a coherent, thoughtful manner about their issues with the company, the first thing everyone wants to know are the details behind what happened. Without those details, we cannot make up our own minds as to who was at fault (and both parties may be). So the details are asked for, and if they are supplied, we're back over the line again... thread gets removed from public consumption (one thing I have never agreed with, locking would be better, IMO).

Catch-22...

[Keith Outten]

Larry, I doubt that the lawyers will win anything in this case because the issue is about how this Community feels things should be done. We are simply extending our Community philosophy of being a friendly place to the companies we purchase tools and equipment from. If this solves a few legal issues for us that is certainly a major benefit as well. In a nutshell we don't want SawMill Creek to be used as a courtroom that tries and convicts anyone (person or business), particulalrly when they are not present to defend their position.

Dan, you have misinterpreted what I said in my last post.
Please read it again.
.

[Peter Scoma]

I think this thread has been successful in clarifying SMC's stance on negative reviews, however, I'm still stuck on what is a "rant/pile on" vs "poor review."

If the original poster in a thread reports an unsatisfactory experience with a product/CS they are oftentimes not alone in their experience. Perhaps this post is followed by half a dozen members reporting a similar experience in accordance with forum rules. If such a thread is no longer allowed it is a true shame. I rely quite a bit on tool reviews and various forums to make decisions on what to purchase. I think most members are savvy enough to know which threads are legitimate and which are BS nonsense.
PJS

[Bill Trouard]

The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews. I understand why it has to be this way, and I do see some people getting carried away with their venom, but that is just human nature.

The lawyers win again.......

Larry

I agree with that statement Larry.

Keith when you say post like the grizzly thread are completely removed from the public view to protect the company the member and forum’s reputation. I just do not understand the majority wanting this type of censorship. Maybe that explains why this forum has so many new tool gloats and very few this new tool stinks threads.
Its actions like that that can hurt a forum or any other company that someone puts trust in for neutral reviews. The BBB even got a big public black-eye by how it was selling its ratings. 20/20 aired a show showing (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/business-bureau-best-ratings-money-buy/story?id=12123843) exactly that. now if you knew that you could buy an A+ rating from the BBB would you still trust them when trying to evaluate a company you may be looking to hire? How is this any different than what the BBB is doing? they remove consumer complaints for their paying accredited members or in the case here sponsors. The ability to complain about a company’s service or product in a public place or place product reviews without fear that they will be deleted because the company or someone disagrees with that review. This is what keeps companies doing the right thing and fixing issues. where would we be if all companies could sweep all issues under the rug from the public view with a few advertising dollars.

I know I would have liked to know that the BBB was doing that. it would have saved me $6k that a contractor ripped me off for that had an A+ rating and no government actions in their report. After the fact found out the opposite, the city had issued summons to the contractor for hiring unlicensed sub-contractors and had a few lawsuits filed in other counties. Even when I filed a complaint with them against the contractor, still no complaints show when you look up that company still has an A+ and no government actions taken against the company even though I provided the public records, the only thing it takes to get a positive listing is a valid credit card.


That is why I suggested that deleting full threads is not always best. if a thread starts to become a rant you weed the abusive post and notify the member why. but do not kill the legitimate post in that thread. becase when you loose the public trust because they are seeing these threads get deleted you loose members, and when you loose members then the advertisers do not care, they will take their $$ and move on

I personally rely on forms and reviews of products by consumers a lot more than shows or magazines that depend on advertisers for their income. Its these forums and review sites that keep companies in check. if these forums did not exist these companies would not be so willing to fix issues if they were not worried about this type of thread.

At the end of the thread its up to you on how you deal with these issues, just like every other business with the choices they make, they have to accept how those choices reflect on that business.

[Harold Burrell]

Just my $.02...

I , for one, appreciate the balance here. It is indeed a valuable resource of information. It is also a place where we can share our likes and even our exuberance over our experiences/purchases from and with tool makers and sellers.

That info (IMHO) is oh so very appreciated.

I know the issue being discussed here is a delicate one. But I think that the administration here handles it well. I personally tire of reading threads of folks bashing companies or even using the forum as a "means to an end" for getting the business' attention.

Do we (as individual consumers) have bad experiences? Sure. But there is a way for us to voice our concerns in an appropriate manner.

It's kind of like this...I can disagree with my wife. Hey, it happens (more often than I care to mention here). I am learning (after 31 years of marriage) that the way I choose to handle that disagreement can either resolve or exacerbate the issue. We can discuss it rationally...or I can "freak out" on her.

Speaking of which...

Have you ever been to someone's house and heard a couple get into a heated "disagreement"? I have. It's awkward.

Well, it can get like that around here sometimes. Except we get to here only one side of the complaints.

I think the mods do a good job keeping that in check.

(Enough of my ramblings...)

[Mike Goetzke]

Keith - Maybe there should be another survey about corporate sponsorship versus an annual fee. I for one would be willing to pay to speak/read freely. Another option may be to have a forum section for ranting - some other forums have this (maybe charge an additional fee for this section).


Mike

[Keith Outten]

Nobody is saying that you cannot write a responsible review (good or bad) of a tool here. In fact if you search our archives you will find that I have been extremely critical of Xenetech many times. I chose my words very carefully and I stuck to the facts when I made comments about their company and a machine we purchased at CNU. Everything I said was true and I can provide proof if necessary to substantiate every comment I made.

Mike, we have a private Forum called the Lumber Yard where you can speak freely. Our Moderators rarely get involved in any of the posts in the Lumber Yard unless someone becomes unfriendly. You already have access to this Forum as a Contributor.

I don't need to open a poll to ask how everyone here feels about The Creek reverting back to a user supported Community again when so few are willing to donate six dollars per year. The vote would once again be an overwhelming approval of advertising providing free access to all of our woodworking forums.
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[Myk Rian]

The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews.
Do you mean reviews by we, the users and members of these forums, reviews in printed media, or on tool based websites?
The first, I would have a tendency to believe. The other two, I hardly ever believe, totally.

[Carl Beckett]

I will chime in here, to say that I appreciate the balance that the moderators/admins are able to maintain on this forum. I find it to be one of the more friendly and useful sites on the internet (at least for the ones I have used).

I have seen and tried to use sites that are very open and loosely moderated (or self moderated). These almost inevitably end up being taken over by a vocal minority, which most times renders the site useless.

There has to be a balance. The chances of everyone agreeing to what the details of the balance looks like - is zero. Im a big believer that someone has to step up and make these decisions, and I am comfortable that the current moderators/admins make thoughtful and considerate judgment on where to draw the line.

I also appreciate that it takes time and effort on their part to make this site what it is - a very valuable and useful forum for sharing of information on a common theme. I have certainly made decisions based on 'poor reviews' of a product by others here. I have also seen people become upset over things that I would not at all consider to warrant the level of passion shown. From what I have seen, its all about HOW the feelings are expressed and shared. I have yet to see a topic where legitimate opinions, expressed in a mature and 'fair' way, were moderated off. Is it 'perfect'? - there is no perfect.

So my rant: I want to express my thanks to the moderators and administration of this site. It continues to be a valuable forum of information (for me). As far as I am concerned, you are doing a great job in balancing the tone of the site and ensuring it stays a positive and fair environment.

[ian maybury]

I've just noticed this thread, and post as the devil's advocate. I should mention that being in ireland and dealing only occasionally with US suppliers the topic is in my case largely academic in any local or specific sense - although it's absolutely relevant in terms of the broad situation and the thrust of the points made. To be clear - my feeling is that there is no place for posts which which are gratuitously abusive, or which are intentionally untrue. It's clear too that the practical bottom line for any forum must be to act in accordance with the realpolitik of the situation - that it would otherwise risk ending up more focused on surviving in the courts than on providing any woodworking related service.

Truth be told though this outcome reflects the balance of power our societies have enabled between the players (primarily forum owners, advertisers/suppliers, posters, purchasers, and the the law) more than it does any fundamentally wise or just balancing of outcomes. The private Joe is always going to lose if a decent sized distributor (a player with financial clout) chooses to take a tilt at him for publicising an issue in circumstances where he can't show that the fault lies clearly, simply and demonstrably with the distributor - while a forum or magazine is going to find it commercially very difficult to stand up to the power wielded by a large advertiser. The other major variable that moderates behaviours is probably the fear of negative publicity.

Most of us by knowing this, by not being legal experts or masters of the weasel word, and by having minimal financial resources and even less time to spare to tilt at legal and cultural windmills tend to keep our heads down. We do our homework and try to stay out of trouble, and if we run into trouble we'll get an issue sorted by the path of least resistance if we reasonably can. We'll very often though heave a sigh of the 'I should have known better' sort, take the hit and move on - or may even have become so used to endemic overselling that we don't fully perceive it as an issue. Our culture is such that it's often not even an option to raise an issue on a forum for fear of being told 'serves you right dope, you should have read the fine print' or something similar.

What I guess I'm saying is that there's likely a far higher level of dissatisfaction with suppliers out there than the level of complaint on any forum I've seen suggests to be the case, and that the realpolitik described above contributes to masking this fact. That forums (presumably) for fear of legal entanglements and loss of sponsors almost inevitably hope to silence dissent - regardless of whether or not the issue has merit.

I've been horrified at the level of dubious business practice I've encountered since getting into woodworking in the late 90s - practices are rampant that in engineering and manufacturing industry are almost unheard of. The difference I suspect is that in industry the client normally has the clout to avail of the law - while the primarily DIY/hobby guy does not, and may not even be protected by the same law e.g. as in the case of dust system performance standards.

My personal and not very expert sense is that the law is the big culprit in this situation - that as ever it creates distortions that favour those with power and financial clout that adhere to its letter but not its spirit.

There are many excellent woodworking suppliers out there (and we can all name some) - from the large to the very small - organisations and individuals that offer great products made to the highest quality standards, excellent service, and operate to the highest standards of integrity. People that do the right thing for the right reasons.

The fact is though that there's a sizeable swathe of unscrupulous operators out there too that routinely make advertising and marketing claims about their product and its quality and performance that don't stand up in practice, and that will roll out the law or other weapons (including those deriving from their commercial clout) to block dissent and/or honest commentary if the going is getting tough. The fact is that many of these guys knowingly and intentionally exploit the gaps created by the realpolitik to stay out of trouble.

While fair play is probably always going to demand moderation on the part of all the players (even if legally possible it seems likely that free for all attacks on suppliers would lead to injustices - although perhaps matters would find there own equilibrium as people came to recognise what was excessive, and what was not) - it seems to me that it's a pity that the law as it stands makes it tough for a forum to truly function as a soapbox for the raising of issues...

ian

[David Cramer]

Wow, well put Mr. Outten, well put indeed. If anyone can't understand your reasoning, they should start their own forum and see what it's like. Keep it up and continued success with the site.

David


Over the last nine years I have developed a good idea of what the majority here feel is best for our Community. I receive plenty of feedback via our Private Messaging system that reinforces decisions I make most of the time. I also know that there will always be a small number of people who will disagree with decisions made here but as I have said many times before it is the majority we try to keep happy, never the minority.

Clearly we are protective of our advertisers, if I told you anything else you would immediately know that I was bending the truth. We must be sensitive to concerns that advertisers have here, if we aren't they will leave and this Community will cease to exist. There you have it, this way you don't have to speculate concerning how we feel about advertisers and every one of you who prefers free access knows that this is the way it has to be.

This is where I remind everyone that we used to be a self supported Community without any advertising. It was the majority here that wanted us to convert to the current format.

From my vantage point any Rant that involves a woodworking machine manufacturer is rarely worth reading. The real jewel here is in our threads about woodworking, this is the reason woodworkers gather here. So, we will continue to support woodworking topics as our one and only mission. I realize that when someone is having a problem with a machine or vendor they often feel the need to seek help from others or possibly advice from someone who has had a similar experience. Morale support rarely helps anyone acquire corrective or preventative action, the better tact is to contact the company involved and work with them to solve the problem directly. The secondary problem I have with Rants involves the reputation this Community would earn if we allow runaway rants to steer us away from woodworking and the impact it would have on our ability to connect woodworkers to the companies that build our machines.

I will also admit that I will remove any thread or delete any post when I think it is in the best interests of a Member here, specifically any post that might put someone at risk of a legal challenge. I would rather be accused of censoring than see someone here sitting in a courtroom who may lose their home or life savings because they made a statement they could not prove to be factual. Even though our forums are not at risk of a legal challenge I really don't ever want to see anyone here suffer or go bankrupt trying to defend themselves against a company that can afford the very best legal staff. If you think this hasn't happened here your wrong, so far my track record as a peace maker is perfect, if I ever fail the word will spread real quick.
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[Don Selke]

That is one of the reasons amung many why I continue to support this forum. This forum and the management have always had the membership at heart. There is enough garbage on the news and on other forums to read and listen too. Please Keep up the wonderful management of this forum.

DS