Sawed, sawed, and still crooked..

[David Nelson1]

I need a bit of friendly advise. I'm trying to cut some tenons that are beyond the capacity of my jig, besides that the stock is 75 inches long so the band saw is out for secondary cuts. I have watched Christopher Schwarz DVD on sawing and did pick of some great tricks/techniques. I have tried 20 or so cuts with varied results.

Nothing I would call close. I think saw I'm using are appropriate for the job. Switching back and forth on the cross cut saws results in the same outcome, so its not the saws pulling to one side. It's me LOL. I really don't have a proper vise as of yet so that may be a small portion of the problem don't know.

I'm not over gripping the saw or do I think I'm forcing the saw through the wood. Using a knife and a large chisel I'm able to start on the line line but not much later I can tell its going adrift.

I'm not out of options I could go get a better blade for my SCMS or go get one of those Stanley Miter Boxes. (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=miter+box&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=602&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16984164638346627536&sa=X&ei=LgksTtWnKcbTgAfMutifCw&ved=0CEIQ8wIwAA) Seems that they get a fair review from HD users. Not sure it's a quality tool.

Anyway I've attached a few pics maybe someone has a suggestion that might help me out.

202855202856202857202858

Thanks for looking

[Archie England]

Greetings. You'll love those angles once cutting dovetails; but for now...

IMO it's your technique, meaning, your stance, arm-eye-saw blade alignment. Make a jig, a notched 1x4, that can slip over the wood--snug up to the line. This vertical support should show you the plumb line to follow. You could drop a short line with a bob on your saw, too; this would allow you to "SEE" when the saw tilted as the thread swings left of the blade. Of course, I wouldn't make that line very long.

Second, I would be using a longer saw than 12" on a cut that appears to be over 4"--that's a lot of saw blade in a cut. But I don't believe that to be the big issue. Of course, I may be totally off.

Practice, practice, practice. I took me a while to handle a true 90* cut without leaning or veering.

Archie

[Ed Looney]

David

A couple of possibilities come to mind. The first is hand grip on the saw. What color are your knuckles while sawing? Too tight of a grip isn't good. Try holding the handle like you were shaking hands with a 10 year old girl. Secondly how his your saw? If all of your cuts lead off in the same direction it could be how the saw was sharpened. However if the saws are still in new sharp condition and come from a reputable saw source I would work on griping the saw in a manner where I could direct the direction of the cut without applying white knuckle force.

Ed

[Harlan Barnhart]

David, I agree with Archie, it looks to be an alignment issue. That saw plate must be kept vertical, then the magic happens. I had one of those mitre boxes and I could make more accurate cuts by hand so I don't see that as a good option. You look to have nice saws, I'm thinking several more of those practice tenons and it will "pop" in place for you.
Good luck and have fun.

[dan grant]

maybe clamp a square on the board to use as a visual guide until you get the muscle memory, the condition of the saw and type would be important factors, also u could cut on the waste side and sneak up on it with chisel plane etc, good way to get rid of scrape

[Jim Matthews]

When you square up to cut, are you standing to the side of the cutline, or directly behind it?

Sidle over to the side, and give your arm room to swing.

Look at the reflection in the side of your blade, it should appear as if the board were continuing "straight through (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=270&BG=1)" the steel in a continuous line. The angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection.

[David Nelson1]

Greetings. You'll love those angles once cutting dovetails; but for now...

IMO it's your technique, meaning, your stance, arm-eye-saw blade alignment. Make a jig, a notched 1x4, that can slip over the wood--snug up to the line. This vertical support should show you the plumb line to follow. You could drop a short line with a bob on your saw, too; this would allow you to "SEE" when the saw tilted as the thread swings left of the blade. Of course, I wouldn't make that line very long.

Second, I would be using a longer saw than 12" on a cut that appears to be over 4"--that's a lot of saw blade in a cut. But I don't believe that to be the big issue. Of course, I may be totally off.

Practice, practice, practice. I took me a while to handle a true 90* cut without leaning or veering.

Archie

Notched 1 x 4 sounds like that great idea. Stance and hand to eye. LOL Stance I can handle, I might need to get a mini Hubble telescope for the hand and eye thing. Practice I didn't expect to take right to it , but neither did I think it was going to be a MAJOR hurdle.


David, I agree with Archie, it looks to be an alignment issue. That saw plate must be kept vertical, then the magic happens. I had one of those mitre boxes and I could make more accurate cuts by hand so I don't see that as a good option. You look to have nice saws, I'm thinking several more of those practice tenons and it will "pop" in place for you.
Good luck and have fun.

I'm hoping a few more will do it but time is of the essence right now. I played with the chop saw and figured a way to get good repeatable results. A small bit of tear out bit I can live with that. I was thinking the same thing about that miter box. For what less than 40.00 you get a cure all. I think not as well.


David

A couple of possibilities come to mind. The first is hand grip on the saw. What color are your knuckles while sawing? Too tight of a grip isn't good. Try holding the handle like you were shaking hands with a 10 year old girl. Secondly how his your saw? If all of your cuts lead off in the same direction it could be how the saw was sharpened. However if the saws are still in new sharp condition and come from a reputable saw source I would work on griping the saw in a manner where I could direct the direction of the cut without applying white knuckle force.

Ed

Hand grip is good. I'm quite good with a hack saw in very think metal. Now the downward pressure might be a problem. I was a bit heavy @ times, realizing this i back off and it went easier. Still crooked but easier. Saws where pre-owned from a another Creeker. Very little use.. I was thinking the same as you stated but I tried a different saw with the same results.


maybe clamp a square on the board to use as a visual guide until you get the muscle memory, the condition of the saw and type would be important factors, also u could cut on the waste side and sneak up on it with chisel plane etc, good way to get rid of scrape

No chisel plane and my planing skills are very poor as well. I bought a set of these along with the holder from Steve. I do plan on using them in the future, but for this job they won't work.

[David Nelson1]

Thanks Jim, C.S. mentioned all of that in his video. I did try all of what you mentioned but its a lot to try and do till you train yourself. Practice, practice.

[lowell holmes]

I suggest you watch this video. It is free. It helped me a lot.

http://handtoolstechniques.blip.tv/rss/flash

Watch episode four.

The link does not seem to work anymore. All you get is a bunch of promotional stuff.

[Tony Shea]

Practise is the key. But I always cut my tenons a small amount fat, very small, and fit them to their exact size after. The best tool for getting it fitting perfectly is a router plane, which insure's parallel surfaces and a perfectly centered tenon. A chisel is another method of cleaning up a slightly fat tenon, just be sure to keep your tenon faces very flat and parallel to the board. Is a little trickier with a chisel but def doable, did this for years.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Sorry to say this in the Neander forum, but..........a circular saw will square cut the shoulders for you. The cheeks can be cut on the BS, but you may want a secondary support as you push the rail into the blade. FYI - as it turns out, I can adjust the height of my Delta DC380 planer [on a mobile base] so the top of its motor is in the same plane as the 14" C-frame BS table - that's the "quick and dirty" outboard support I use for long stuff on the BS. The planer hasn't ever complained, so I'm fine with it, too.

But - the cuts can certainly be made with handsaws......practice, practice, practice - looks to me like your stance might be the culprit - I line it up so I have one eye on each side of the blade [it's kinda like lining up a $25 shot with a pool cue], and I have a vertical line scribed/drawn down the side to make sure I am on target as I get started. Your arm and shoulder movements may need to be refined. The technique I adopted is to keep the section from elbow to hand in a constant position/plane, and only move shoulder and bend elbow as I push. Never move the wrist, never let the blade pitch back-and-forth [up and down?] during the cut. But - that's just what works for me - I think the real deal is to get in the rythym that wokrs for you, and always-always-always use those exact motions every time - develop muscle memory, so autopilot kinda kicks in.

[James Owen]

Another thing to look at is consistency of your grip on the saw. In pistol shooting, a consistent grip helps to eliminate a number of variations that can negatively affect accuracy; it's been my experience that the same kind of thing applies to sawing, especially when using smaller saws like back saws.

A "trick" (actually a very useful technique) that we were taught for gripping consistently: hold your dominant hand up at about shoulder height, palm facing away, with fingers extended (but touching each other) and the index finger and thumb forming a "V". Set the saw into the V so that the area where the horn (on the handle of the saw) starts to curve is in the bottom of the valley formed by the "V" in your hand. Lightly wrap your three bottom fingers around the saw handle and point your index finger straight along the line of the saw's back. Firm contact should be with the crook formed with the little finger (wrapped around the handle), and with the inside of the index finger knuckle (where the index finger meets the body of the hand) through the bottom of the "V". A "soft" relaxed-but-firm grip is what you want; a tense "death" grip will make it very difficult or impossible to get good cuts, and will cause your hand muscles to get tired very quickly.

Reading this makes it seem very complex, but the actions themselves are very simple and quick..... It will take about 1/10th the time to actually do this, as it does to read the description of how to do it.....

If you set the saw in your hand using this method (or something similar that will ensure consistency) each time you use the saw (at least until you have developed the muscle memory for holding the saw the same way every time), you will eliminate at least one of the variation factors that may be making it difficult to get the cuts you want to make.

This may be a really fine point, but I've found that small -- sometimes very small -- adjustments in grip, stance, etc., make a huge difference in the control of the saw and in the quality and accuracy of the cut.

And, as others have already said: practice, Practice, PRACTICE!!

[David Nelson1]

All good advice and I'm doing some it of some of time. LOL

[Tom Vanzant]

James, very well put. I have been told the grip on a Dozuki saw is similar to a relaxed grip on a putter, emphasis on relaxed. A firm grip ruins the cut.

[john harder]

Here's another thought from my very limited experience. :) In the second picture all the kerfs veer to the right, the second picture the kerf veers to the left. Without knowing if these are all from the "front" of the cut or the "back", it could be that part of the issue is that the saw is set more strongly on one side causing it to pull in the cut.

[David Nelson1]

All the kerfs pulled to the left. Your are looking @ the same cuts from the other side. Also I went from the Veritas saw to the PAX Tenon saw. I didn't see the need to saw all of the practice cuts. LOL they all pretty much looked like that.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I can't view flash stuff at work, but I believe Lowell was trying to link the Logan Cabinet Shoppe podcasts; Bob changed how his website is set up a while back, and there's still a lot of dead links floating around to his material. I believe the episode he was trying to link to is here:

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2009/07/episode-4/

Been a long while since I saw that, but I remember it being good.

Another decent, free, helpful video is the recent Woodwright's Shop episode with Chris Schwarz discussing sawing. I don't have a link handy, but it should be from the last season (Season 30 I believe) and is still available on the PBS website for free. (Edit - I just reread the first post and saw that you mention seeing Chris's sawing DVD - I imagine that his appearance on the WWS is largely a retread of that DVD.)

All the advice here is pretty good; it just takes practice. (Trick though, is making sure you're practicing the right way to do it! I learned the hard way with instruments how bad it can be to practice a whole lot with poor technique!)

When I was learning to saw, I made it a point of setting a square, upright, next to, on, or behind my work; it made it really easy to figure out what plumb was. Square I've got a pretty good eye for, and you can follow your line, plumb is a little harder.

The other thing - if the depth is long enough, make sure you're at least starting your cuts going down two lines, viewing on the diagonal - i.e. - set your saw at a 45 degree angle and cut down both lines - your scribe across the board, and your line going down the depth. Your cuts look kind of like what mine would look like if I just set the saw flat across the board and started sawing - it can be done that way (although a mitre box helps) but going down both lines, at least to start, makes staying plumb a lot easier.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

A properly sharpened and set back saw hardly is able to cut a bow like in the 3rd pic shown. Even if you want to saw such a bow you won't succeed. This saw kerv is typical for a wrong set. If the kerv drifts to the left there's probably too much set on the left side (or too little on the right side). It's strange if there is the same issue on two saws. Looking closely on the pics I've the impression that some of the cuts are only wandering to the left side but not like a bow but straight. That's probably an user error.

So it might be that there is an alignment problem while sawing combined with one wrong set saw. I'd propose to try a straight cut on a piece of scrap with the saw which sawed a bow. Don't mark a line, just let the saw go. If the kerv another time is not straight the problem is with high probability one of the saw. To fix the wrong set it's possible to "stone" the saw. Put the saw on the bench with the left side up (if the cut wanders to the left) and go with a bench stone once from the heel to the toe without downforce. Then try the saw again. Take care not to overdo the stoning. Once there is too little set, the saw has to be resharpened and reset.

Klaus

[David Nelson1]

Klaus, I all cases, after watching the video again and everyone impressions my stance and line of sight are dead wrong. In most cases I had the scrap clamped to the edge of the TS and for the rest of the time I was in that vise that is right up on the wall and no way to really correct my mistakes like that.

The set maybe some of the problem but it wandered with both saw. Before I go goofing with all that I want to get a real vise, set to a height that would good for my eyes as well as my stance. For now I devised a way that I can use the chop saw to do the secondary cuts. I'll cut the primaries with the Grizzly Tenon jig. I'm not giving up just need to make these joint before the weekend so I can clean up and go on vacation.

Joshua, I'll review that link. I also have a few other DVDs to glance @ put I'll do that after my vacation and while I'm on a road trip. Reno to see my daughter and son in law then off to Logan Utah for work. be back home around labor day.

[Matthew Hills]

My initial thoughts:
- start your kerf across one face, then extend down the second face, and then cut to finish. This helps keep things straight, as you're only focused on one at a time.
- the grip/stance/swing are really the key to not pulling the saw off the line. I have to practice every time before I do a critical cut.

Joel from TFWW has a blog entry on sawing straight (emphasizes relaxing, practicing, and developing your eye):
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=270&BG=1

Chris Schwarz had a blog entry on sawing:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/how-to-saw

Matt

[harry strasil]

+1 for Klaus's solution, back before I started sharpening my own saws, I had a shop with commercial saw sharpening equipment, all my saws did the curve thing, and flopped around in the too wide kerf, due to too much set and uneven set(More set on one side than the other). Turns out his machine cut teeth and set the teeth all in the same operation and it set one side more than the other.

FWIW, Try this.
Find a smooth jawed machinist type vise and fold a piece of copy paper in half the long way, leave about 1/2 inch sticking up above the vise jaws and fold these over onto the top of the vise jaws and tape in place, then being careful to squeeze the entire length of the saws teeth between the vise jaws by moving the saws blade progressively thru the jaws to even out the set and see what happens. this process will narrow the set, make the set even on both sides and the saw will cut faster as it will be removing less material, and it will be easier to follow the line if you get started straight to start with because of the very narrow kerf.

[Casey Gooding]

Practice, Practice, Practice. It's quite simple, really. Get some scrap and practice cutting straight lines. That's really all there is. Eventually it will become second nature.

[Jim-M Campbell]

I have been plagued by the exact same "symptom" you describe here.

Worse for me, is I cut an amazingly consistent undercut. I've noticed when the saw is held in my right hand, it wants to go right to that undercut angle.

When in my left, dead plumb.

Too bad I'm right handed.......

In studying this situation to no avail, I might have found something (other than that old piece of cheese in the back corner of the fridge.....)

My right hand, I held my thumb down relative to the top of the handle.

My left hand, the thumb is a bit higher and points more up (for the sake of argument, lets call it 1 oclock).

My right hand thumb was really close to 3 o'clock. Almost in line with my index finger.

If I point my right hand thumb up, you can see the saw magically go plumb.

Lower the thumb towards the "middle finger", magically the undercut angle happens.

All this was figured out without the saw on wood (my neighbors have been getting a little worried about me walking around the yard talking to my carcass saw!).

To test without a saw, form a pistol in your hand, thumb pointing up, index pointing forward, curl under the rest of your fingers (at least three). As you move your thumb down to your pinky, your hand contracts.

Well, let me rephrase all this, MY HAND does this. Your hand/mileage may vary :-)

Hope that helps.

Jim

[john brenton]

I have found that what looks straight to my eye isn't straight. My left eye is really lazy...I think I'm somewhere in the realm of 20/200 with that bad eye. It's a good eye as far as what it can see, I just can't focus it right. Anywho, I have had to rely on muscle memory. Whatever looks straight to me, with a slight tip to the right, will give me a pretty straight cut.

My best advise is to mark your tenons all the way around and cut to the line until you find that sweet spot.

This is a short saw, and a good one at that so it's probably not the saw, but in other cases like long rips you may want to check the set and tooth profile. That can cause a consistent pull to one side or the other as well.

I do use my rebate plane as a shoulder plane on occasion though, and do undercut the shoulders on the show side.

[David Nelson1]

Thumb up thats curious!

[Kent A Bathurst]

David - The obvious solution that no one has offered yet.........Your saws are clearly from The Dark Side. If you would get a tenon saw and a dovetail saw from Klaus - those Jedi Knight things he and Yoda make - you would be fine. All you probably need to do with them is set them on the line, and then you let The Force simply drop them straight down, with no motion, effort, no kerf - likely not even any sawdust. I betcha Master Jedi Knights simply wave them over the line.................

At least - when I look at the photos - that's what I see...........:D.......maybe someday I can afford them.

[Matthew Hills]

I also find it important to stand back from my work.

If I crowd the board, my elbow tucks in against my body and my wrist turns out, tilting the saw clockwise, so the cut errs to the left.

so my suggestions recapped:
- mark all the way around the cut
- give yourself space
- loose grip on the saw
- start at top and just get the cut established, then extend the cut down the front, continue cutting on diagonal as long as possible
- check your progress until you're confident of your feel for plumb

BTW, can you feel your saw's balance point?

Matt

[Jim Koepke]

I was thinking the same thing about that miter box. For what less than 40.00 you get a cure all.

I do not think a miter box will be the cure all. I have one that has been used for many cuts, but now days the cut is usually just marked and cut.

A miter box does come in handy when making compound angles or a lot of repeated angles.

For everyday square cutting of small stock, it is easier to just make your own miter box or bench hook with a guide.


I didn't see the need to saw all of the practice cuts.

Then there are those of us who will take practice cuts to start off our day in the shop.

For years I have been making practice cuts. Each cut is checked with a square before the next cut is made. Practice is the only way I know of getting to the point of being able to make good square cuts when they are needed.

jtk

[Klaus Kretschmar]

David - The obvious solution that no one has offered yet.........Your saws are clearly from The Dark Side. If you would get a tenon saw and a dovetail saw from Klaus - those Jedi Knight things he and Yoda make - you would be fine. All you probably need to do with them is set them on the line, and then you let The Force simply drop them straight down, with no motion, effort, no kerf - likely not even any sawdust. I betcha Master Jedi Knights simply wave them over the line.................

At least - when I look at the photos - that's what I see...........:D.......maybe someday I can afford them.

Too much expectation, Kent.

We still need to find the laser sword secret. At least our saws leave saw dust and a kerv, too ;)

Klaus

[John Coloccia]

I can't tell from the pictures. Are the kerfs curved? I can't make a curved kerf with any of my saws, or at least it would require far more work than I'm willing to invest! I can saw inaccurately, and I can even saw too deeply, but by and large my saws either bind (i.e. don't cut at all) if I'm doing something really wrong, or they cut straight, albeit no always on the line.

Do you know the trick of squaring up the saw by looking at the reflection? When you're square, it will look like one continuous piece of wood.

Anyhow, if the kerfs are really curved, I have to think that the set is funky and would benefit from professional sharpening (or do it yourself if you feel like it).

[David Nelson1]

I do not think a miter box will be the cure all. I have one that has been used for many cuts, but now days the cut is usually just marked and cut.

A miter box does come in handy when making compound angles or a lot of repeated angles.

For everyday square cutting of small stock, it is easier to just make your own miter box or bench hook with a guide.



Then there are those of us who will take practice cuts to start off our day in the shop.

For years I have been making practice cuts. Each cut is checked with a square before the next cut is made. Practice is the only way I know of getting to the point of being able to make good square cuts when they are needed.

jtk

LOL my typing sucks so does my proof reading. It was supposed to read " I didn't see the need to saw = show all of the practice cuts. I agree practice.

[David Nelson1]

some of them are curved not just out of plumb.

[David Nelson1]

I thinking I'm starting to getting the hang of this. Now just gotta do about a bizillion more.

203155

[Jim Koepke]

I thinking I'm starting to getting the hang of this. Now just gotta do about a bizillion more.



Are all of those kerfs made with the same saw?

The wider kerfs look like you are either fighting with the saw or the set is too wide.

jtk

[David Nelson1]

Different saws. The wide kerfs are the PAX saw and the others are the LV saws. Yeah I'm still struggling but to me its a great improvement.

[Harlan Barnhart]

I



Then there are those of us who will take practice cuts to start off our day in the shop.

For years I have been making practice cuts. Each cut is checked with a square before the next cut is made. Practice is the only way I know of getting to the point of being able to make good square cuts when they are needed.

jtk

Jim, I make practice cuts as well. The difference between you and me is that I don't take the time to make them on scrap. I make my practice cuts on live stock...

[harry strasil]

One of my old Blacksmith Mentors told me one time. "No matter what procedure you are performing, give it your utmost attention and perform it to the best of your ability, because each and every performance is practice for a similar performance in the future!" And always remember if you perform a procedure just good enough to get by, your brain will just do enough to get by all the time and will not strive to improve. Its all a simple matter of training your brain to work well with your eyes and hands.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, I make practice cuts as well. The difference between you and me is that I don't take the time to make them on scrap. I make my practice cuts on live stock...

I also make a that kind of practice cuts. Just like what Harry Strasil's mentor said, each and every performance is practice for a similar performance in the future!

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

Your thinner saw has too much set, on the left side.
It's the "Traction" of the teeth drawing the blade that way, combined with your natural arm swing.

If you have a fine sharpening stone, lay the blade down on your bench with the "left" side up.
Pass the stone lightly from the back of the saw blade to the front with a little oil or soapy water.

It's a minute correction needed, there so one or two light passes only followed by testing.

Make another cut and see if there's an improvement.

I think you may also be binding against the steel - are your saws taper ground (thinner toward the top, thicker toward the teeth)?

[George Beck]

I have found that most saw cut problems like this are stance and line of sight. You, in my method, want to be standing slightly sideways from the work, one foot behind the other. This is an athletic stance. If on was going to throw a ball straight, you would not stand with feet together face the target. The motion is for your finger, wrist and elbow to move in a straight line. If you are too far to one side, your arm will want to swing toward your body and the saw with it. Then you start bending your wrist to try to get back on line and things go pretty much downhill from there. When I first started, I cheated by clamping a board to follow. I could let the plate of the saw rub against the slave board and keep me on line. pretty soon you will feel where to stand to follow the board. It sounds fanatical, but for one full year I made 50 parallel cuts on a board every morning. I would start the day by marking close lines across a scrap piece and cut the lines close to each other across the end, flip the board and do it again. It is like putting.

Now a word of caution. Once you master this, and you will. You will become a fiend about sharpness and proper set. With all of this to think about you want the saw to cut and flow straight almost effortlessly. You are providing the back and forth motion but not much down force or push. I often see folks at shows sweating through ripping a board and I think that in the days of building houses with hand tools they would not have lasted an hour. You will get tired enough from just the arm motion, you don't want to push steel through wood.

[Georg Zudoff]

Hello David and all replied to this thread.

Almost every day I could have the same problem - the saw walks as lure when you make "walk a dog" style - to the left then to the right....

I can't remember where I read this answer - probably on the japanese tools forums, but of course US woodworkers forum.

At first, I use only handsaws - kataba & ryoba, make a thin kerf on the line or on the side of the line - you will have a thin narrow kerfs from dovetail saw or japanese saws.

Then start to saw from the border towarded to you - your saw will saw altogether two side - the thin kerfs will as guides for your saw.
Try like this, I think these thin kerfs will keep your saw line enough straight.

Regards,

Georg.

[David Nelson1]

getting better!

203427203426

[Peter Cobb]

Well done! Keep going.
Cheers,
Peter