The Stanley #1

[Steve Southwood]

Today, I held my first Stanley #1 hand plane. Went rust hunting/ flea markets and sure enough, I found one. Matter of fact I found a bunch planes. Keen Kutters, Unions, Bedrocks. He wanted $600 for the #1 and I almost pulled the trigger until I noticed it was broken and welded. The whole toe had been broken off at one time and welded back on. Job looked good enough, but not for the price. Every bedrock was $150, which I didn't feel was too bad. I did pick up a 71 1/2 router plane to go with my 71. Oh the #1 was a type 10, from what I could tell from the stamp on the blade.

[george wilson]

I had a #1 which early in its life had been broken right through the mouth. Still had the Stanley decal on its handle. When the Early American Industries tool collectors were coming to Williamsburg,they always visited the Toolmaker's Shop. I had this #1 laying around for 25 years. Finally decided to fix it. I brazed the body together neatly,and re Japanned the body. I showed it as a restoration project to the group. Later,at their "flea market"(my most favorite of flea markets!) I sold it for an OFFERED $700.00. The buyer was fully aware that it had been broken.

[Mel Miller]

Steve: That was a very wise decision to pass on the repaired #1. The only value left on a repaired plane like that is the remaining undamaged parts.
And George: If you truly managed to sell a repaired #1 for $700., that just proves the old adage: "there's a sucker born every minute".

Mel

[Chris Fournier]

I would avoid a welded cast iron plane (because actually welding cast iron is tricky for all but an accomplished welder) but a brazed one would suit me fine if the job was well done. I find that the No. 2 is about as wee as my hands can go. If I need smaller I reach for my standard angle block planes.

George may have cashed in on the No. 1 but I can tell you that he has been very generous with other tool sales! Now about your Hardinge lathe George...

[george wilson]

I did NOT sell to a sucker. The plane was shown to the whole group,and I discussed how it was restored. The purchaser OFFERED $700.00. Others offered a bit less,but still close to that figure. Unbroken #1's,but rather used up looking ones were about $1200.00+ if I recall. No one twisted the guy's arm. These people are ALL pretty advanced tool collectors. They have to pay $$$$ to come to Williamsburg for several days,and get group tours,eat suppers,breakfasts and lunches together,motel rooms,etc..

I don't know what the parts were worth,but the handle was like new,with the original decal,which I haven't seen before on a #1. Of course,I am not a Stanley collector. The handle might have been worth half the price with that decal. Not of my money,but if you are a #1 collector??? I don't know the value of every part on a #1,but they are worth enough that even in the 70's someone was counterfeiting them. I can't understand that,myself! My own planes are worth much more than a #1,and are not as complicated to make!! I'd rather make mine!!

I'll also add that I did a VERY nice job on repairing the break,though a very thin line of brazing could be seen. Let it lay around for 25 years before I finally decided to fix it. Not in a rush to sell it.

If you think I am cheating people,ask David Weaver,Joe Bailey,Chris Fournier,Johnny Kleso,and Joseph Kloseck, who I made an exact replica of a Record cap screw for.

I sold Chris a new condition vertical head for his milling machine for less than 1/4 what banged up ones were selling for.

[Chris Fournier]

Well yes I got a good deal at 25% of the going cost but it was the pink terry cloth towel that the head was wrapped in that made the deal for me. One washing and voila I had a perfectly good towel for my hockey bag. This impressed Sheilah to no end. I believe that the shipping charges were "reasonable" as well!

[george wilson]

That pink towel was a family heirloom,too!!!!!:) I didn't set the shipping costs,of course! At least,the box didn't get caught in some kind of duty through customs,or something.

[David Weaver]

Doesn't sound like a sucker if all of the parts were good except the casting - sounds instead like someone with $$. When I got into this hobby, decent condition #1s were going for $1500. I'm sure you could get a casting and match it to $700 of good plane save the braze and be in good shape. The guy who bought it might've already had the casting and been waiting for an original decal tote and some other good parts.

Of course, I'll understand the mindset of collectors of planes when I understand the mindset of beer can collectors.

[george wilson]

There is a WORLD of things I don't understand why people pay $$$$$$ for. Baseball cards,Barbie dolls,Avon bottles,comic books. The list goes on forever.

David,those guys ALL had to have money just to pay for being here for the event. Transportation,rooms,meals,membership,etc.,etc.,et c.. I LOVE their tool flea market. Bought some of my nicest things at them. They are actually more REASONABLE about their prices than your average flea market,because the collectors KNOW what the stuff is worth,and the dealers know they do.

If I had really tried,I could have darkened the casting and brazing enough that the repair would not have been visible. I darkened it sufficiently that the brazing was not real obvious,but you could see it. If it had been done for my wealthy customer,she would have wanted it invisible.

No,I have tried to build a level of trust in money matters here,and elsewhere. If you don't,it will come back to bite you.

[john davey]

I agree with George, People spend $$$ on all kinds of things. I kind of have a chisel problem. I'm ok with it but I just ordered the Narex set of 10 when I have 30 to 40 oldies I still need to sharpen up. I guess I'm becoming a collector :). Honestly a #1 for 700 is something I would never consider but I don't think George suckered him at all. Collectors will pay that kind of Jing and he clearly stated the condition so I just think a guy with allot of jing got what he wanted. Good for him and George :)...

[Bill Houghton]

As a tool to use, or collect? Considering you can get a brand new Lie-Nielsen No. 1 for $225, with thick iron and improved chipbreaker, why pay more than twice that for a Stanley?

And, mind, I'm asking as someone whose bench planes are all old Stanleys except for the Wards Master, Craftsman, and Millers-Falls examples; and most of whose planes are old planes from one maker or another.

[Jim Koepke]

As a tool to use, or collect? Considering you can get a brand new Lie-Nielsen No. 1 for $225, with thick iron and improved chipbreaker, why pay more than twice that for a Stanley?

Because the Lie-Nielsen isn't a Stanley.

As a user I bought a Lie-Nielsen #1. If a Stanley #1 came my way cheap, I would consider selling the LN. Or if the money was needed, the Stanley might get sold.

It is a rather limited use plane for the money it costs. There aren't too many planes in my shop that get used less.

jtk

[Ray Gardiner]

I did NOT sell to a sucker. <snip>
These people are ALL pretty advanced tool collectors. <snip>
<snip>


Hi George,

Don't sell yourself short, there are probably people who would pay MORE, to have a #1 repaired by you, sometimes it's the story and background of the tool that carries the value rather than the tool itself....

I can hear the buyer now, proudly telling his friends, "This is the #1, I bought from the toolmaker at Colonial Williamsburg, who did the nearly invisible repair...."

Regards
Ray

[Matt Zettl]

Ray,

I couldn't have stated it better. The fact that a Stanley #1 was expertly repaired by George Wilson adds immeasurably to the value, assuming that there is some type of documentation of the provenance of the plane that accompanies it.

Matt

[David Keller NC]

A curiosity note to this thread - As far as I am aware, the highest price paid for one of these, at least recently, was about $7000 (yes, you read that right - 7 grand) acouple of summers ago. It was a near pristine #1 in the original box.

While I personally find the lust for a #1 to be disturbing, that was definitely one nice plane. You don't find many Stanley planes in that condition and of that age (it was a sweetheart, if I recall) period, regardless of the size. A side-note: I don't find the desire for #1s disturbing because of the prices paid, but because of the reason that tool collectors want one - they're cute. And the demographic for most tool collectors are -ahem- "mature" men. One might as well have told me that tool collectors would pay big bucks for a hot-pink crescent wrench.

[george wilson]

Mel,I am wondering if you are aware of the prices commanded by Stanley #1's ?

[Chris Fournier]

I have many vices but thankfully collecting isn't one of them. By collecting I mean purchasing with the intent to collect. I prefer to "amass" things. In the end, my rationale fails me when I look at my collections.

I'd take a LN #1 over a Stanley any day but I really don't care about the Stanley "collector's value". I appreciate the heritage but not enough to shell out for one and as I have pointed out earlier it really is not much more than a gimmick. #2 and up for me.

George, would silver solder not have given you a more colour matched repair? Granted it still has a very slight yellowish cast to it but not like bronze. Except for the cost of the silver solder I prefer to use it for all tight fitting delicate reapir work these days.

[george wilson]

Brazing is best for cast iron. Since the sole was quite dark to begin with,I just aged it back after a very slight re grind of the surface. The brazing hardly deflected the alignment of the sole,but I ground it just a little to get all smooth and perfectly aligned.Some gun blue,steel browning solution,and brass black aged up the sole until it looked as it had before heating it up to braze. I didn't go so far as to rust the sole,or to fully hide the braze line. That,in this case,could have been seen as deceitful. The collectors saw me talk about restoring the plane,but the person who bought the plane AFTER the guy who bought it from me,down the road,might not have seen that the body was repaired. I tried to guard against that happening,at least as it passed from my hands.

In other words,the object was to not completely hide the repair.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Other than the LN #1, there's also the Bedrock #601 authentic reproduction available from Patrick Leach/Superior Works. Looks beautiful. I have no need for a #1......but that one looks terrific, IMO.

http://www.supertool.com/601.htm

[Chris Fournier]

That is a noble objective. Cast Iron has such a toothy break that it is quite nice to fix as far as alignment goes. I have repaired and also replaced necks and bodies on valuable guitars and I attempt to get a real imposter for the customer but at the start of the project I let them know that I will be permanently identifying my work as a restoration or replacement. I don't like to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Lucky for me my skill set would rarely achieve the 100% competent fraud.

[Mel Miller]

Mel,I am wondering if you are aware of the prices commanded by Stanley #1's ?

Well George, lets just say it's likely I'm more familiar with the market value of Stanley #1 planes, past and present than you likely are. Over the past 25 years, I've bought and sold over a dozen #1s in all conditions, 2 within the last year alone. A cast iron plane cannot be invisibly brazed, much less repainted (to match the original japanning) that will fool a knowledgeable collector - it just ain't happening. A knowledgeable collector wouldn't have paid that much for the remaining parts on that plane either. A good body for a #1 is the hardest part to find.
As far as paying a premium for your repair, no disrespect intended, but again no knowledgeable collector would do that.

Mel

[george wilson]

No need for you to accuse me of looking for a sucker,Mel. I have never done that,nor will I. Do you really think you are so familiar with my restoration work that you can tell me what I can and cannot do? I work for one of the fussiest collectors. Other Williamsburg craftsmen stay away from her. You may or may not have seen this picture. One of these bobbins with flyers is original,one is my reproduction. The repro cost much more than a nice #1. I do not need to look for suckers.

Words are cheap. I stand behind my work,and behind the work I have done for member of this forum so far.

[Mel Miller]

George: I never said you "looked" for a sucker, reread my posting. The guy that offered $700. for a known repaired #1 made himself a sucker with his own lack of knowledge.
I stand fully behind my statement that a #1 that has been broken off at the mouth cannot be invisibly brazed. That has nothing to do with your other restoration work.

Mel

[george wilson]

Mel,I never intended to make the repair invisible,as I said. You know hardly anything about my restoration work,because I never took pictures of any until very recently. I suggest you leave it at that. 3 or 4 other collectors offered figures very close to his. I guess EAIA is full of suckers,then. Or maybe they wanted a piece of my work,I don't know. I sold it for the $700 rather than spending more time on it,when I was more interested in looking at the things for sale. I paid my journeyman Jon,a very outstanding craftsman in his own right,and an extraordinary gunsmith about $1400.00 to restore a Winchester 92 that I already paid $900.00 for. I have much more in that gun than it will ever be worth,but I wanted a piece of Jon's work.

Jon is one of the few people in this country who can forge out a gun barrel from a flat piece of wrought iron,bore and rifle it with primitive methods.

[Steve Southwood]

I can't believe that I was just trying to post that a guy can find the plane or planes he is looking for, if he is patient. You guys have totally destroyed the whole concept here. What is wrong with you people?

[george wilson]

Don't quit so easily,Steve. There are just as many undiscovered treasures out there as there were before this thread!!

[Steve Southwood]

Not going to quit George, not by any means. The stuff is out there, that is for sure. I was/ am just amazed how quick this thread turned into what it did.

For the record, if I bought the #1 or even the #2, it would be to resale. I have no use for either of them, too small for what I do. I also hate seeing working tools, sitting in a collection.

[george wilson]

Sorry,I didn't post about my #1 expecting what looked like negative feedback. I am not a Stanley collector,and have/had no idea what the #1 was worth as repaired. I just had it laying around for at least 25 years,and decided to fix it as a demonstration to the EAIA. Up to them if they wanted to buy it. The #1 was not offered for sale while the group was in my shop. Several asked me to bring it to the flea market next day.

Years ago,in the 70's, my director had seen some of the infill planes and other things I was making at home. At that time I was the Master Musical Instrument Maker,not the toolmaker,not till 1986. The EAIA was in town,and he told me to o get my tools and put up a display that the collectors could see on their way out of a meeting. We weren't supposed to offer our wares to visitors(tourists),and I warned him that they would want to buy the tools. He didn't care.

The collectors cleared my table clean off!! And,I got repeat customers that lasted for years that started collecting my work,and ordering things.

I had not offered anything for sale,but they were insistent on buying the tools.

[Steve Southwood]

I have seen the pictures of your work on here. Nicely done.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I had not offered anything for sale,but they were insistent on buying the tools.

Dontcha just love the free market?!?!?! If you were happy to sell a tool for price "x" and the buyer was happy to buy for that price, then all is well in the world. Even better is when you don't even intend to sell, and someone offers you oodles of cash. In that case, you accept the cash, and hand over the tool. Everyone is happy.