Glueing up.

[Derek Cohen]

This may be a little simplistic for some.


It occurred to me to keep a record of glueing up the two Military cabinets. In part, I always look for feedback to improve methods. And in part, it may help someone what to do - or what not to do! http://www.woodcentral.com/webbbs/smileys/smile.gif - as glueing together dovetailed cabinets can be a little unnerving.

I left off last weekend at this stage - a dry fit of the two cabinets ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Session3-Progressreport3.jpg

Here I present the right hand cabinet, which will have three drawers and three shelves ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Session3-Progressreport2.jpg

Glue? I am using Titebond III. It has about 15 minutes of open time, and is required to be clamped for 30 minutes for the initial bond.

The internal "seen" surfaces (around the shelves) have been scraped. All other internal surfaces are planes flat and smoothed but scratches and scrapes are left be. They will never be seen.

The clamps are ready, the glue bottle is clean. I have made up a fresh bunch of spatulas.

I make glue spatulas from an old, broken, cheap tape measure ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue4.jpg

I start with the sides:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Glue1.jpg

I only add glue to one side, not both. I find it easier to place the glue on the pin board as there is a wide area, and it can be plastered on evenly and completely.

First one side ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue5.jpg

Then the other ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue6.jpg

And lastly the centre (even if it is end grain) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue7.jpg

The clamps do double duty. As the boards warp a little and are no longer as straight as they were when first built, the clamps pull the join into alignment. Secondly, by angling the clamps you are able to alter the pressure on the sides and square up the angle.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/Glue2.jpg

Next the centre divider is glued in. Glue runs the full length of the stopped dado, and I add a little more for the undercut edge. I am never sure whether one should leave an unglued section for expansion here?

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue3.jpg

I clean up with tepid water as I go.

Now the top can be added ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue8.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue9.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

I had worked hard on the dados and the runners of the drawer supports and the shelves to fit well. I did not want to be surprised at this stage with sticking parts, drying glue, and panic. Happily the shelves slid in smoothly, the lower one first ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue10.jpg

I only glued the first quarter of the dado. This would allow the solid shelves to expand and contract with changes in the weather.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue11.jpg

I did the same with the drawer supports althogh these will expand differently, probably hardly at all (as they are all mortice-and-tenon joints).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue12.jpg

Clamps ensure that there are no gaps at the front ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue13.jpg

And then diagonal braces are used to fine tune the squareness ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue14.jpg

That came out just fine:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue15.jpg

Next up - smooth planing the outside and building the bun feet.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Kanter]

Thanks Derek,
It is always helpful to see how someone who knows what he is doing does something basic but important.
The diagonal clamps for squaring, for instance, is not something that I had been doing. I will definitely do that when needed in the future.

[matt braun]

Thanks Derek,
It is always helpful to see how someone who knows what he is doing does something basic but important.
...

I'll second that. Thanks for putting in the extra time to document and share this with us.

[glenn bradley]

Great stuff Derek, thanks. I sometimes use epoxy on parts that slide together during glue-up. Not for strength; just because it is slippery and doesn't grab like PVA can. Methods for preventing squeeze-out are a must with the epoxy though ;-)

[Joe Bailey]

I'd like to add my thanks, too - these well written and photo-documented write-ups are more useful than you may realize.

[Tony Shea]

Thanks from over here in Maine. This is the most feared part of any woodworking I do. In fact I am about to glue together a small cabinet I've had in the works for some time now but just have gotten frustrated with it. After the huge swing in humidity from winter to summer I ended up with cupped sides, which really played havoc on the dovetails and all other aspects. But I think I've decided on going with epoxy for the dovetails as I really need the extra open time to fine tune squareness and pound home my gap free dovetails, which are somewhat tight without glue.

Hey Glenn, what is done about the squeez out of epoxy and does it affect the finish even after scraping up the somewhat dried run out?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

I keep wet paper towel at hand for removing excess PVC. I use alcohol (methylated spirits) for expoxy).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Federico Mena Quintero]

Taking pictures while gluing and meticulously documenting the glue-up? Brave man!

Thank you for this; this will be really helpful in the future.

Now let's wait for sales on clamps...

[Bill Moser]

Derek -
Thanks for your exposition -- not too simplistic for me. I'm about to embark on the making of a case piece, my first, and I know just enough about woodworking to know that glue-up gets tricky pretty quickly. In fact, I just ordered a couple of DVD's from one of your countrymen, Scott Horsburgh, which I hope will walk me through the glue-up process (as well as a few other things) in exquisite detail. I'll be referring back to your posts as I go, as well.
- Bill

[Bob Smalser]

Very nice. I like it that you’ve thought through the racking stress this cabinet will undergo as it gets pushed around during its life and have oriented your carcass dovetails accordingly. In campaign furniture originally designed to travel in wagons from camp to camp, this is especially important.

If you’ve posted this for some feedback from those who have done a few dozen carcasses like these over the decades, I can make some contributions:

1) The dados housing your drawer runner assemblies are more fussy than they need to be if you make them full-thickness like you’ve done here. It only takes a 64th of exposure to make them both weak and ugly. T&G is a much better approach….or at least some manner of shoulder on the runner to hide the dado and make for a more-easily achieved, heel-of-the-palm fit. (No tighter, as they are crossgrain joints.)

2) High-end work uses dust panels between drawers. I’d add them even if the original I was copying didn’t. Cheap Meranti doorskin works exceptionally well here, as what’s ugly and non-original about it is all hidden in the grooves.

3) You are using the wrong glue. The level of joinery you’ve reached merits a reversible or repairable glue to match it. White and Yellow aliphatics aren’t reversible, can’t even be repaired, interfere with staining, sand like Tupperware and allow the joints to move around in structural applications, often spoiling the finish in the process. Until the 1930’s nothing but hot hide glue was used on these pieces…an easily repaired, easily sanded and stained glue that’s 100% reversible. Its problem is water resistance, but the development of urea formaldehyde plastic resin glue in the 1930’s (Aerolite in Britain and Weldwood, URAC or Unibond here) solved that problem with an inexpensive urea powder mixed with water. You should switch to one of them.

4) You are using over twice as much glue as required, which combined with a glue that interferes badly with staining, increases you cleanup tasks impossibly. End grain is not a gluing surface. Do a few restorations of original, period furniture and you’ll find that after a few years of normal seasonal movement, none of the glue on end-grain surfaces or tenon shoulders or ends is still holding, and accordingly, it’s a waste of time and materials to apply it there in the first place. If you need a filler for some reason, then there are much better fillers out there than yellow glue.

The same principle applies to T&G or dado joints. All cross-grain glue joints can be expected to eventually break, and don’t need but a fraction of the glue they usually receive. A stopped dado or groove open at the back only requires the front half-inch to an inch glued. A dado or groove stopped at both ends only needs a few drops of glue (or pinned with a brad) at the center of the panel. Gluing those crossgrain drawer runners full-length not only aren’t likely to hold, they may crack the cabinet sides in the few places they do.

[Derek Cohen]

Very nice. I like it that you’ve thought through the racking stress this cabinet will undergo as it gets pushed around during its life and have oriented your carcass dovetails accordingly. In campaign furniture originally designed to travel in wagons from camp to camp, this is especially important.

If you’ve posted this for some feedback from those who have done a few dozen carcasses like these over the decades, I can make some contributions:

1) The dados housing your drawer runner assemblies are more fussy than they need to be if you make them full-thickness like you’ve done here. It only takes a 64th of exposure to make them both weak and ugly. T&G is a much better approach….or at least some manner of shoulder on the runner to hide the dado and make for a more-easily achieved, heel-of-the-palm fit. (No tighter, as they are crossgrain joints.)

2) High-end work uses dust panels between drawers. I’d add them even if the original I was copying didn’t. Cheap Meranti doorskin works exceptionally well here, as what’s ugly and non-original about it is all hidden in the grooves.

3) You are using the wrong glue. The level of joinery you’ve reached merits a reversible or repairable glue to match it. White and Yellow aliphatics aren’t reversible, can’t even be repaired, interfere with staining, sand like Tupperware and allow the joints to move around in structural applications, often spoiling the finish in the process. Until the 1930’s nothing but hot hide glue was used on these pieces…an easily repaired, easily sanded and stained glue that’s 100% reversible. Its problem is water resistance, but the development of urea formaldehyde plastic resin glue in the 1930’s (Aerolite in Britain and Weldwood, URAC or Unibond here) solved that problem with an inexpensive urea powder mixed with water. You should switch to one of them.

4) You are using over twice as much glue as required, which combined with a glue that interferes badly with staining, increases you cleanup tasks impossibly. End grain is not a gluing surface. Do a few restorations of original, period furniture and you’ll find that after a few years of normal seasonal movement, none of the glue on end-grain surfaces or tenon shoulders or ends is still holding, and accordingly, it’s a waste of time and materials to apply it there in the first place. If you need a filler for some reason, then there are much better fillers out there than yellow glue.

The same principle applies to T&G or dado joints. All cross-grain glue joints can be expected to eventually break, and don’t need but a fraction of the glue they usually receive. A stopped dado or groove open at the back only requires the front half-inch to an inch glued. A dado or groove stopped at both ends only needs a few drops of glue (or pinned with a brad) at the center of the panel. Gluing those crossgrain drawer runners full-length not only aren’t likely to hold, they may crack the cabinet sides in the few places they do.

Thanks for your considered reply Bob

A few comments back ..

1. Using a T&G construction where the join may be seen makes sense to me. In the case of these carcases, all the dados - with the exception of three shelves - were for drawers and would be out of sight. I did consider T&G for the shelves, but in the end it was easier to align the heights using the dados, so I took this route. I was extra careful with fitting the shelf dados so that the joins were tight.

2. I will look into dust panels even though they are not a feature of military cabinets (as far as I know). Good idea.

3. I agree about the use of hide glue. The only reason I have not used it is because I have no experience using it. It is time to try it out.

4. While the amount of glue looks a lot in the pictures, don't forget that I am only glueing from one side. The proof of the pudding ... there was very little squeeze out. Below is typical ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Military%20Chests/glue16.jpg

I agree about glueing end grain - it is more of an emotional- than intellectual reaction. The drawer runners are glued at the first couple of inches of the stopped dado only. Only the central divider was glued the full length, and that is not structural so it should not make any difference - we will see. I tell you what, let's compare notes over a couple of beers in a few years time :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[john brenton]

Haha, I didn't even think about that. Derek seems like one of those guys that can do this glue up and go straight to the dinner table afterward...if that were me doing that glue up I'd have yet another "tank top shop rag", another pair of jeans that I can't wear anywhere but the shop, and I'd probably need a hair cut to get the glue out of it. That an I'd probably have to apologize to my wife and kids for yelling at them when they came into the shop to ask me something.


Taking pictures while gluing and meticulously documenting the glue-up? Brave man!

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Frederico and John

I did have some help for a while ... but then she fell asleep ...

.. Aura, the bench dog ....

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench and Workshop/Letsleepingbenchdogsliesmall.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

4) You are using over twice as much glue as required, which combined with a glue that interferes badly with staining, increases you cleanup tasks impossibly. End grain is not a gluing surface. Do a few restorations of original, period furniture and you’ll find that after a few years of normal seasonal movement, none of the glue on end-grain surfaces or tenon shoulders or ends is still holding, and accordingly, it’s a waste of time and materials to apply it there in the first place. If you need a filler for some reason, then there are much better fillers out there than yellow glue.

I agree to an extent about the end grain and lack of adhesion with gluing it. But after reading a bit (including the Anarchist's Tool Chest which is not anything to stake claim to) I have concluded that putting glue on end grain will by no means hurt. The lack of adhesion has to do with end grain's ability to suck all the moisture from the glue. If you were to drop your puddles in the end grain sockets of the tail board and lift all the glue up the side walls then the end grain has esentially been sealed a bit. By brushing on just a tad more in the socket after I think the end grain would adhere much better. But this is there is enough time left by then, which is a huge advantage of using Hide Glue for dovetail glue ups.

[Bob Smalser]

...While the amount of glue looks a lot in the pictures, don't forget that I am only glueing from one side. The proof of the pudding ... there was very little squeeze out.

Except that's also not considered a "best practice".

Generally an acid flux brush is used to coat both faying surfaces with glue....the assembler lets the piece rest for 5 minutes or so, adding more glue if the wood soaks it all up....and with a light but uniform coat of liquid glue on the faying surfaces the assembly is clamped. trued and checked for uniform glue squeeze out.

And with hide or UF resin glues, the amount of squeeze out is of no consequence. Both glues have excellent, matching color and both glues sand easily and don't interfere with subsequent staining.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Bob

You are absolutely correct -you get no argument from me. That is indeed best practice.

On the other hand, if I had attempted it that way I would have had literally half the time I had to glue up the carcase. This was one of the reasons I did it this way. With the glue I used I had 15 minutes in total open time. Glueing both sides would have left me 7 1/2 minutes to do it all! (Then you would have seen me sweat!!). What time would one have with hide glue?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Smalser]

You can extend the open time of hide glue by either thinning the glue or heating the faying surfaces. And if it sets up too fast anyway, you can also remelt it using a heat gun and more hide glue and reset the joint.

For carcass assemblies I prefer UF resin because of its longer open time. I like plenty of time to adjust my diagonals front and back. Resorcinol is even longer, but the glueline is an ugly purple. UF resin has the best-looking glue line of them all.

[Sean Hughto]

Bob, I really appreciate all your insightful thoughts in this thread. I'm facing a chair glue up where I will have the top and bottom joints (mostly through tenons to be wedged either in the bow or the seat - a few blind) of seven spindles to do all at once. I'm afraid I won't be able to move fast enough. Would Urac 185 be a good bet? or is there too little tack for effective wedging?

[Dave Anderson NH]

While I like hot hide glue and use it often, there is also a place for the bottled hide glue that Titebond makes and the Old Brown Glue made and sold by Pat Edwards. The bottled liquid form has a lot longer open time. Of the two, I prefer the Old Brown Glue.

[Tony Shea]

Dave, what about the Old Brown Glue do u like better than Titebond's hide glue? Just have been experimenting a bit with glues, but have never tried Old Brown Glue yet. I did like the Titebond's hide glue so far, the open time is great for tough glue ups. And clean up of squeeze out is of much less consequence than the other Titebond glues i use. I'd be interested to see/hear what the advantage of Old Brown is.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Tony, I keep System III epoxy,Titebond II, Titebond Extend, 192 gram strength hide glue pearls, and the Old Brown Glue in my shop, each for different uses. I've honestly never used the Titebond liquid hide glue, but that is mainly because every place I've seen that stocks it sells so little that half of the shelf life is gone by the day I go into the store. The Old Brown Glue is always fresh when I buy it and I also like to support craftsmen like Pat Edwards as opposed to a major corporation whenever I can. The OBG also has a nicely extended open time compared to hot hide glue. I would never use OBG for hammer veneering however since I want as short an open time as possible in that application.

[Chris Fournier]

Sean Urac 185 will work for you. If you require tack for your glue up just apply the Urac 185 to both components and let them sit for a bit while you go on about getting other pieces ready. The two part Urac is hardcore and I use it for bent laminations where I want the absolute best glue. I have laminated almost 1000 flyfishing nets using the easier tto store and use PPR, the powdered just add water form of this adhesive. It must be used in 70 degree plus conditions!

http://www.veneersystems.com/index.php/action/item/id/36/prevaction/category/previd/3/prevstart/0/

Check out the link for a source on State side. This glue has great properties and more woodworkers would benefit from using it in certain applications in their shops.