AWFS show photos & review

[Damon Stathatos]

I attended the AWFS show on Wednesday and Thursday in Las Vegas and drove back home early this morning. Here are some of my general impressions and comments about the show:

It seemed to be somewhat smaller (square footage) and some of the 'big-boys' greatly reduced their booth spaces, but the show in total is still a big (huge) show and it took me two full days to get through it. Foot traffic seemed to be fairly decent and many of the booths seemed to be doing good business.

It seems as if 'consumer' CNC's continue to be introduced, both 'sign-type' as well as the 'Legacy' or lathe-type. I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years, CNC will at least be available and affordable, on a small scale, in most any shop.

My most interesting wood find was a plantation teak guy bringing it up from Mexico and South America (be advised, I'm 'into' exotics and there were many domestic wood sources who were just as notable). Generally not cheap but much cheaper than the limited Asian teak currently available. Unfortunately, with this type of plantation wood, density and weight suffer and even though visually it is identical to the wood you expect, it feels and most likely works differently.

A decision as to which direction -Festool Domino or Lamello Zeta- was finally had at the show...and now I just need to figure out a way to pay for it. Previously, it was hard for me to decipher exactly what the Lamello Zeta was all about but by finally seeing it and having the benefit of demonstration and discussion, in my opinion, that is one amazing unit. If only they didn't price their stuff almost as a function of the spot-gold price, it'd already be ordered. Note to self: 'it's healthy to deny oneself and develop lust yet once again.'

My album is here:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=646

I've attached some of the photos as well but am not completely confident that they're going to display. Among them are the Laguna, Festool, Powermatic, Delta, and Teknatool booths, pictures of the two products I thought were 'show winners,' the new Bessey hold-down clamp and the Lamello Zeta, and a final picture of my skag-loot (I'm a catalogue and freebie monger...tee shirts and hats, oh yeah, Festool jig saw blades, screw samples, a Bessey knife, DVDs, yada yada yada). The Bessey hold-down clamp is auto-adjust with a manually adjustable pressure setting (hey...hold down clamps are probably not the most critical issues any of us have but this one is definitely notable).

[Dave Lehnert]

Thanks for taking the time to post the photo's

The Laguna lathe looks just like the Grizzly. Is that new for Laguna?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/20-x-43-Heavy-Duty-Variable-Speed-Wood-Lathe/G0694

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Me too, thanks for taking the time to post the photos. I was thinking of going this year maybe next year. It's on my bucket list anyway. Tom

[Scot Ferraro]

Thanks for the photos...I had planned to go, but too much going on this week to get away. Next go around...it really is a great show with lots to see.

Scot

[Damon Stathatos]

I'm not sure if the lathe is new for Laguna but you're correct, it does look very much like the Grizzly. From what I understand, there are a number of factories that make the majority of machines for all of these 'importers' so look-alikes are not that uncommon. It could be that the specifications are different between the two (quality and such) depending upon the importer though.

They hold the show only once every two years so the next show in Vegas will be in 2013. There's an alternating show in Atlanta the other years but I've never been to that one.

Based upon an older recommendation here on the Creek, we ended up finding a great 'old-time' Vegas restaurant, The Golden Steer. It was so good, we went both nights. All prime beef and the prices a bit on the steep side ($30-$50 for a steak), but they also have a $16 steak sandwich in the bar that was almost more than we could finish anyway. Couple that with a $15 martini (about the size of a punch bowl) and we were set.

[Will Blick]

Damon, thx for review...

Is the Lamello system for Break-Down pieces or for permanent pieces?
Of course one difference is the exposed hole on the Lamello, assuming that part of the project is visible...
and what kind of pricing?

[Damon Stathatos]

...get me thinking about the Lamello again.

They have three models, two 'basic' biscuit joiners and their new 'Zeta' model. The Zeta model acts either as a traditional biscuit joiner or, when you engage what they term the 'VMD' (vertical mechanical drive), it adds a P-slot (rounded T-slot) to the cut. So, the head moves to the end of the cut, stops, and then moves up and then down to add a profile to the traditional biscuit cut. With this P-slot cut, you are able to use their two piece (Clamex) P 'biscuits' which are fiberglass reinforced plastic couplers. In order to actually couple the two pieces together, you do need to drill a small hole on one side of the joint (with their drill jig) which gives access to the hex head coupler. Each half is profiled so you feed them into the profiled biscuit cut until they are centered.

The obvious benefit of this is knock-down construction and or ready to assemble installations. You are correct in that there is the visable drill hole but if, as in a remote installation, the unit is to be considered a permanent fixture, you could always fill the hole after coupling. Also, if you use it without the VMD drive and as a traditional biscuit joiner, there's no need for the hole in the first place.

Their two 'basic' biscuit joiners go for $600 or $1100. The Zeta model with the VMD goes for $1400. The Clamex P 'biscuits' are about $2 - $2.50 each, which I consider the real drawback. They have what they term Bisco P aligning elements (basically a plastic, thick biscuit) which you can use in place of the more expensive Clamex P but you're still going to need to use at least one if not two of the P's for each joint. I figure that to get the Zeta and a modest amount of supplies, it would be around $1700 minimum.

The reason I feel this is somewhat revolutionary is that it adds to a traditional biscuit joiner the ability to construct and assemble as a KD and dry fit installation. There are other aspects to it as well such as using it as a hinge mortiser but you need to use their hinges which are crescent shaped and fairly expensive ($7.50 to $10 each) and only applicable for light use applications such as boxes. They also have some self clamping biscuits which would allow for a (permanent) dry fit for hard to glue/clamp panels and such.

I'm still wrestling with the decision as money is really tight right now. I had previously set my sights at a Festool Domino but feel that the added dimension of KD and dry fit capabilities springboards the Lamello.

[Will Blick]

thx for response Damon....

So let me make sure I understand this...in the big scheme of things (as it relates to purchase of Lamello vs. Domino)

If you do NOT make ready-to-assemble pieces, or break-down pieces, the clear winner is Domino, as the cost of the Lamello and the Plastic biscuits seems excessive, with very little gain, and an added hole to cover.

Cause if its just biscuits your after, obviously there is very low cost alternatives, and the Domino with its new 4mm thin biscuit now competes head-to-head with a biscuit jointer. Making it a more versatile joinery tool.

Is this a a fair assessment as you see it ? Or is there other benefits to Lamello I am missing?

thx

[Damon Stathatos]

I think that if there was no interest in the ready-to-assemble or break-down capabilities that the Lamello Zeta offers then the cost comparison would revert back to the Domino vs the two 'basic' Lamello joiners. If you're only looking at basic biscuit joining with the Lamello, the cost would be either $600 or $1100 and the cost of the traditional biscuits are something like $50 per 1000 biscuits.

There are for sure lower cost alternatives for traditional biscuit joiners but (purportedly) the build quality of the Lamellos assures a better and more consistent performance than others. I've spoken to Lamello 'devotees' who claim consistent and hard usage of their tools over many, many years and most seem to have felt that the higher initial cost ($600 - $1100) more than paid off in the long run, both in total cost but more importantly in performance.

Having said all of that, if I were to look at the Domino vs either of the two Lamello 'basic' joiners, I think that it would go back to a toss up again, with maybe a slight nod toward the Domino. That would put me in the same camp that I was in prior to the show and prior to my introduction to the Lamello Zeta, which pretty much blew me away given the added dimension of the ready-to-assemble capability.

[Will Blick]

So I assume you plan to do break-down projects, if so, the decision is much easier.

AS for the build quality of the Lamello, I am sure its superb... I have been using a PC biscuit joinery for 5 years, prob. inserted a 10k or more biscuits, have not even changed the blade yet. For $150, you can go through several PC's for the price of one Lamello. As usual, if this is a tool you use every day, that's a different story.... since biscuits are sort of a sloppy form of joinery, ultra precision is not a key ingredient in most applications. My PC jointer also fits my Festool Vac with no adaptions, and dust collection is nearly 100%.

I too like the break-down aspect of the Lamello... and if I did that type of work, well, I guess ya have to pony-up, as Lamello is the only game in town for such a nice break-down joinery system.

The Domino is a loose M&T joiner, it can be used in many structural type applications, unlike biscuits which are not well suited for structural joints on tables, benches, chairs, etc. If I did not already have an array of joinery options, I would have opted for the Domino in place of them all....

[Jeff Monson]

Damon, I attended on Friday and Saturday, Friday was busy with lots of people, Saturday was slow, very liitle traffic and you could tell the large mfgs. were ready to pull the plug.

I was completely impressed with the new Supermax 19-32 drum sander, the no compete klaus ran out with Jet and the Supermax people took all the weak points of the 16-32 and 22-44 and made some sweet improvements. That will be
the drum sander to own IMO for the small shop.

Blum had a couple new (to me anyways) products also, the new clip top hinge with built in blumotion is really cool, the blumotion is in the cup and can be turned on or off with the flip of a small switch. They have a much cleaner appearance also. The new "bottom mount" undermount for trash bins is also really nice, combined with the power drive makes it a real selling point in higher end kitchens.

Jets new "24" dual drum sander appears to be a nice machine also, will be released this fall.

I liked the look of the PM black anniversary colors, thought they stood out nice.

I was impressed with the show all in all, the "fresh wood" competition was really nice, some very talented young woodworkers out there. I took quite a few photo's of the entries if anyone is interested I can post a few up.

Also got to meet Tommy Mac, he was really cool and took a couple minutes to say hi and bs about woodworking.

[Dave Lehnert]

Was GRIZZLY at the show and were they showing anything new?

[Wes Grass]

Grizzly was not there. Not at Atlanta last year either. What was more surprising to me was, Dewalt/Porter Cable was not there. Hard to believe that big a player would skip out.

All the other big names were there, Laguna, Festool, Fein, Bosch, Delta, General, Steel City, Rikon, Jet/PM.

[Damon Stathatos]

...I was impressed with the show all in all, the "fresh wood" competition was really nice, some very talented young woodworkers out there. I took quite a few photo's of the entries if anyone is interested I can post a few up.

Also got to meet Tommy Mac, he was really cool and took a couple minutes to say hi and bs about woodworking.

The 'fresh wood' competiton did have some interesting pieces. There were a couple of Nakashima-ish pieces that I thought were particularly nice but for whatever reason didn't take any photos at the time. There was also a natural slab coffee table that looked pretty good, if I remember correctly. By all means, if you have some pics, feel free to post them.

I have to say that I've been fairly indifferent on Tommy Mac since I became aware of him and his new series. After sneaking a picture of him (and I guess he noticed) he came over to where I was at, grabbed the camera out of my hand, gave it the guy he was talking to, and told him to take a picture of the both of us. And so, for lack of anything better to say I told him that I really enjoy his shows. We ended up talking for quite a while and it turns out we have a number of mutual friends in the business. I have to say, I walked away with a whole new impression of him. He really has a great personality and now that I've experienced that (his personality) first-hand, I'll probably be able to relate to his shows, see them in a whole different light.

Your observations of the various products at the show (drum sanders, Blum, etc.) made me realize that all of us are most likely in 'our own little worlds' while there and that our eye(s) focus on probable needs or wants. Or...maybe that's just me...as I missed those completely. I did however notice the 'new' PM colors and thought they looked good.

[John Nesmith]

After sneaking a picture of him (and I guess he noticed) he came over to where I was at, grabbed the camera out of my hand, gave it the guy he was talking to, and told him to ...

Funny. I thought you were going to say he told him to remove the SD card and stomp it into oblivion.

[Joe Adams]

Damon,

Thanks for sharing the photos. I really wanted to go and this was the next best thing.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I too attended AWFS and was in vegas for Friday, Saturday at the stratosphere. Saturday was pretty slow... actually very slow.

I didn't see Grizzly at the show.

Man I wish I could have met Tommy Mac, I just got to meet Rob Cosman who was trying to sell woodriver planes by making them sharp by honing with shapton japanese waterstones. It appeared he was using two stones, a 1000 grit and 16,000 grit and a diamond flattening stone. What's discouraging is Rob didn't even look at me and I was pretty much front row center for his demo. Then I sort of got uncomfortable as he asked everyone else to demo his plane, but not me. I can only assume that it's because i'm still in my 20's, don't have a beard, and am wearing west coast surfer apparel. :) Either that, maybe he knows that I've splurged on lie nielsen and stanley SH and probably wouldn't buy a woodriver? heh

Tim from Laguna (SMC laguna rep) recognized my name from this forum and we talked for a bit. He's friendly/knowledgable and it seems like Laguna is stepping up in the customer service department.

I also got to meet Carl Knapp who was too busy to talk much because he was selling so many felder machines. I learned about their new driftmaster fence system that's coming soon from an Austrian rep. I also talked about Felders FB bandsaws and it's going to be a tough time for me to shop between MM, Laguna, and Felder for my next bandsaw.

Perhaps the most interesting conversation I had all day was about the sawstop slider. I really like how the blades will be saved with the braking system and I can only imagine how safe it will be to use. I was there for a demo of their cabinet saw and it gives you quite the scare when that brake fires from the hot dog.

There was Byrd head demo for a planer and man is it quieter than the flat blades... I also got to try out the new Festool T18 which is my dream drill. I also might see a product called the Tigerstop in the near future as an add-on to my kapex. Tigerstop is a well engineered automatic measuring/stop block. Seems like it could really speed up using a mitersaw.

In summary, I was fairly overwhelmed at the show and agree that it will take 2 days to digest both halls. I will definitely go to one of these again.

203026

Lots of CNCs and all sorts of software, controllers, and plenty of people to chat with. Plenty of noise and sawdust to go around.

203027

Felder was the one booth I had to visit first, and then I could look at the other booths. :)

[Jeff Monson]

Your observations of the various products at the show (drum sanders, Blum, etc.) made me realize that all of us are most likely in 'our own little worlds' while there and that our eye(s) focus on probable needs or wants. Or...maybe that's just me...as I missed those completely. I did however notice the 'new' PM colors and thought they looked good.

Damon, I think we are all in our own little worlds at a show of that size. I have a domino so I didnt think twice about looking a the Lamello or a Domino for that matter of fact.

[Jeff Monson]

I too attended AWFS and was in vegas for Friday, Saturday at the stratosphere. Saturday was pretty slow... actually very slow.

I didn't see Grizzly at the show.

Man I wish I could have met Tommy Mac, I just got to meet Rob Cosman who was trying to sell woodriver planes by making them sharp by honing with shapton japanese waterstones. It appeared he was using two stones, a 1000 grit and 16,000 grit and a diamond flattening stone. What's discouraging is Rob didn't even look at me and I was pretty much front row center for his demo. Then I sort of got uncomfortable as he asked everyone else to demo his plane, but not me. I can only assume that it's because i'm still in my 20's, don't have a beard, and am wearing west coast surfer apparel. :) Either that, maybe he knows that I've splurged on lie nielsen and stanley SH and probably wouldn't buy a woodriver? heh

Tim from Laguna (SMC laguna rep) recognized my name from this forum and we talked for a bit. He's friendly/knowledgable and it seems like Laguna is stepping up in the customer service department.

I also got to meet Carl Knapp who was too busy to talk much because he was selling so many felder machines. I learned about their new driftmaster fence system that's coming soon from an Austrian rep. I also talked about Felders FB bandsaws and it's going to be a tough time for me to shop between MM, Laguna, and Felder for my next bandsaw.

Perhaps the most interesting conversation I had all day was about the sawstop slider. I really like how the blades will be saved with the braking system and I can only imagine how safe it will be to use. I was there for a demo of their cabinet saw and it gives you quite the scare when that brake fires from the hot dog.

There was Byrd head demo for a planer and man is it quieter than the flat blades... I also got to try out the new Festool T18 which is my dream drill. I also might see a product called the Tigerstop in the near future as an add-on to my kapex. Tigerstop is a well engineered automatic measuring/stop block. Seems like it could really speed up using a mitersaw.



Chris, It would be nice to have met a couple fellow SMC members, wish I would have known you were there, as its always nice to put a face with a name.

I spent quite a bit of time at the Felder booth also, Ruan is a really nice GM for Felder, alot of people in his position would not take the time to visit with the "weekend warriors". I had Mark demo the FB600 for me, I'd have one in my shop if it were a 20" saw, the 24" is just too much machine for my shop. A reworked FB500 is in the making according to Ruan and Fergus. It was fun to see all the other machines they offer in person also.

I didnt see the byrd head demo?? :mad: Its funny how much a person misses.

I also didnt get a chance to see pricing on the Tiger Stop for the mitre saw, I agree it would be a really nice addition to my Kapex also. Did you happen to get any pricing?

[Jeff Monson]

Here are some photo's of the fresh wood competition, there were a few more that I didnt take pics of. Nice work on all of them, espcecially considering the age of the competitors.

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[Jeff Monson]

A couple of more
203046203045

[Chris Tsutsui]

I was waiting for somebody to start a thread like "Who's attending AWFS", but there was no such thread.

Pricing for the tigerstop was around $2600. (ouch) They are available in lengths 8', 10', 14' etc and only go up in price a couple hundred bucks or so because you're basically just paying for longer railings. They were throwing in a free dewalt miter saw stand. I was told that their distributors sometimes sell on Amazon, and there are deals to be found. The guy demo'd the unit being totally abusive to the system and show how it self corrects and can recalibrate quickly. They had one on a PM tablesaw. Would be interesting to just type in a size (metric or fraction), fence automatically moves there and then you make your cut. The mechanism was a pulley/belt system on a stepped motor.

I have a domino as well but I was curious looking at the Lamello products because the clamex is a biscuit that locks itself into both ends with a "T" type slot and pulls the biscuit together for a tight joint. It just looked very expensive... The downside is you need a hole in the side of a joining piece to fit your torx key to lock the pieces together.

The byrd head quietly planed curly maple and the results were fantastic.

Oneida was there, and a salesman helped me choose a model for my home shop. He suggested Oneida V3000 because I don't use 2 machines at the same time and have 5" ports for slider and jointer/planer. Oneida now has a plasma cutter and makes all the duct work, tapers, and radius fittings in a factory they bought from their previous supplier. I should see how much ductwork will cost from them... The Oneida Smart Pro is very interesting and how it adjusts power based on your needs. It probably saves power in that it won't use up all the horsepower if all you're running is a vacuum attachment on a 2.5" hose. I'm pretty sold on an Oneida cyclone now.

I was a little suprised that Leitz didn't manufacture festool blades for Leitz is a german company and they sell blades for euro saws like felder (and they make blades that fit festool). Their tools looked top quality and seeing their offerings and talking to a rep I am more sold on them. Every single blade has a computer check each individual tooth and their blades are both computer measured AND hand inspected by a technician with a straight edge who fixes any abnormalities.

I hate to say this, but the "General" booth seemed to me like what the Grizzly booth would look like. All sorts of machines from benchtop mortisers to industrial sliders with the same mean green color scheme and rough-like castings. I think General could use an update similar to how grizzly is going for the whole polar bear series. Powermatic's anniversary machines were gorgeous, especially the black and gold flagship PM lathe which had me second guessing about my decision to get a oneway 2436.

I do recall one comical moment when a $100K CNC was failing pretty miserably at just putting labels on a sheet of wood. The labels were getting wrinkled, folded, twisted, etc and the tech kept toying around with the label feeder as sweat dripped down his brow.

[Jeff Monson]

I was waiting for somebody to start a thread like "Who's attending AWFS", but there was no such thread.



http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169631-Who-s-going-to-be-at-the-AWFS

I tried Chris, it didnt go over to well.....:confused:

$2600 for the tigerstop is a bunch! I played with the digital rip fence on the Kappa slider at the Felder booth. Just like a kid at christmas!! I made about 30 different entries and just watched as it zoomed into position.

I did spend alot of time in the General booth too, yes they need a bit of an appearance facelift. I was impressed with alot of their mahines though.

I'd also say my favorite PM machine was the lathe, the PM2000 looked pretty sweet in black also.

[Damon Stathatos]

...I do recall one comical moment when a $100K CNC was failing pretty miserably ...

I spend my day cutting and milling really hard woods like cocobolo, ziricote, and jatoba. Every once-in-a-while I'll put some maple or walnut through the blades just to remember what it was like 'normally.' Anyway, at the show there were a lot of 'consumer' CNC's being demonstrated, set on auto-pilot, and as you walked by you were supposed to be attracted to how efficiently, effortlessly, and precisely they could do the job. However, if you took a closer look, it was all 'white-wood' (read: balsa-ish?) and I couldn't help but ask myself how they all would be performing under more probable and normal conditions.

Although I had dealings with him before, it was at the show that I actually met Tim from Laguna. They had what looked to be a fairly 'sweet' little consumer CNC ($6k) that was doing it's thing (on, what looked to be more normal wood) and I made the observation to him that there must have been a run on balsa wood before the show but that the wood they had in their CNC looked to be more of a normal density. As we chuckled about it for a moment, we both looked closer at the wood in their machine and upon further inspection, it looked to be some sort of contrived laminate panel of sorts (as well). Laughter went up a notch...and then a change of subject. So that was one of my comical moments.

[Joe Adams]

I was a little suprised that Leitz didn't manufacture festool blades

Festool blades are manufactured by Leitz and laser engraved with Festool's name. Watch the video on Leitz's website and you'll catch it near the end.