My first wood working bench - top opinions wanted

[Mike Kelsey]

For my first bench I decided to laminate two 3/4 mdf pieces then over lay or underlay with
a piece of 3/4" birch (not Baltic) I have. My thinking was the birch would provide more bench dog holding stability. I can't decide whether the plywood should be on the top or bottom.

I have glued the mdf together & it is pretty flat. the plywood has a slight curve to it but when I did a dry-run clamp up with cauls it seemed to flatten out. Also I plan to band the whole thing with one or two layers of Doug fir (1 1/2" or 3") for bench dogs around the edge & support for the vises.

Should I have the plywood on the bottom & use a 1/4" replaceable hardboard over the mdf or have the plywood on top?


When I have the time (retirement) I plan to build a more traditional Bench.

[Tom Vanzant]

Mike, a benchtop needs to be flat. MDF is flat and smooth, but when glueing multiply layers together, you must maintain that flatness because you can't flatten the MDF and plywood sandwich after the fact. If the 3/4" plywood is warped, it will pull the MDF out of flat.

[Russell Sansom]

MDF won't hold a dog very well. Plywood is only a little better. I absolutely hate working on MDF. Ditto for masonite/hardboard. Not everybody feels as strongly as I do and it depends on what kind of work you're going to do.
I would put the plywood on top, no question. If you expect your dogs to hold, you need something other than MDF at the bottom of the hole as well. Even a strip of 3/4" fir glued underneath would give you a second bearing for the dogs and holdfasts.

[john brenton]

I would ditch this whole idea and used what you have already made as a layout table. A laminated lumber bench is so much better to work on.

[Mike Kelsey]

This isn't really the woodworking bench I ideally want but the idea was to get something built for hand planing & layout sooner rather than later, given my limited time.

[john brenton]

I have about 2 hours a day Monday-Thursday, WHEN I'm in town. That's the time I take my wife and kids to the gym. I may spend time in the shop after that, but not always.

I bought a 2" x 8" x 8' every day for a week, ripped it and glued it one day at a time. Once I saw a mighty plank forming it really got me motivated. Once I had the top and legs done I was happy enough to buy the vise screws, then all I was really left with was the tool tray and final touches. All in all it's been about a month, but that's with about 2 weeks of business travel and minimal time spent on the bench.

From somebody who just completed his bench, I'd say that if you don't know what kind of bench you really want and just want a surface, then go for whatever. But if you know what you want start building it. Building a solid and sturdy bench of any kind is going to take a considerable amount of time and effort. I took all kind of short cuts and I had to paint it to hide all the blemishes...but it's solid and a joy to work on. I couldn't say the same for a mdf bench.

[David Keller NC]

I'd second the vote to abandon this plan as a workable bench for hand tools. It'll be fine as an assembly table or a surface to use power tools on, but it will not be suitable for hand work. Keep in mind that to plane a board flat, the bench underneath must be flat - and I don't mean "looks flat", I mean "is flat". And while we could get a lively debate going about how close to flat that has to be, even a few thousandths will cause you some issues when making repeated passes with a plane in flexible (read: any wood less than 2" thick) stock.

It -might- be possible to get this construction you've detailed reasonably flat after the glue-up, though I kinda doubt it. The much bigger problem you're going to have is stiffness, or the lack thereof. Unless your floor is perfectly flat and even, and your bench legs are absolutely dead-on, the weight of the bench will twist or bow the top. And even if you can somehow get it shimmed just right, the skirt of doug fir that you plan on gluing to it will move, virtually guaranteeing warp & twist in the top after a few humidity changes.

One thing that is sometimes neglected in the reasons given for a solid slab or laminated solid-wood top is fundamental to its usuability in a hand-tool shop - regardless of some warp/twist/bow in the top when the bench is first made, the solid wood nature of the top allows for the top to be planed flat - thus canceling out any inaccuracies in the substructure.

Food for thought.

[Peter Hawser]

Mike, the serious experienced guys are pitching in here and although I am much less so, I have to agree. I tried this path and my results were not optimal. However, I think there is another problem. All these southern guys and Chris Scwartz have access to low cost and well suited Southern Yellow Pine. I would love to get some, but am too far north apparently. Ash is an option, but seems much more expensive. KDF and all the local borg stuff is too soft. For those of us who are "latitudinally challenged," is there a low cost option for making a laminated top? If there was, I bet it would be something more of us would try.

[Mike Kelsey]

OK, let me take a turn in direction. What has been said seems sound & good advice. I have slowly been setting up my shop in our old barn. I have been going several directions at once. One, trying to make the barn into a suitable shop. By this I mean only part of it has a floor - 30% (wooden) the rest is gravel. It is not a sealed structure by any means such that there is a lot of dampness in the winter. Last year I fould mold on plywood I had bought a few months prior. (Pictures can be seen here http://www.flickr.com/photos/55994897@N02/ ). Although I bought a cabinet saw, band saw, planer, I became intrigued with hand-planes & have resisted buying a a power jointer to see if could get by w/o it using the table-saw and hand planes.

Knowing I have to get the shop weatherized I thought why invest time in a solid wood bench which still may be affected by the elements more than usual until I get the barn insulated, so I wanted a quick & dirty way to begin using my hand planes, thinking mdf would be the ticket. So my question now becomes: what is the best working surface for planing to make until I can create a stable environment in the barn?

[bridger berdel]

I have a bench with a top made up of 1 layer of mdf topped by 1 layer of melamine board. the base is heavy timbers for legs and stretchers with a ladder frame under the sheet goods. I have big lag bolts up the legs for adjustable feet, which works great for truing up the flatness of the top. I don't use dogs or holdfasts on this bench.

[David Keller NC]

So my question now becomes: what is the best working surface for planing to make until I can create a stable environment in the barn?

While many here prefer to laminate their own tops, it's possible to make a decent, workable bench from a manufactured, laminated maple "butcher block" top. There are many companies making/selling these. The principal complaint is that they're not thick enough (typically 1-3/4" thick), but it would be possible to face-glue a couple of these together to make a decently thick top, and it may also be possible to find a company that makes them 3" thick.

Remember that before about 1950, just about all shops were "unweatherized" from the standpoint of humidity changes. A solid wood top allows you to compensate by planing to get it flat. That's tough to do with MDF/Plywood, and it's not quite correct to say that MDF/plywood is "stable" with respect to humidity changes - it will still warp & bow, and in some cases, plywood will actually be worse than solid straight-grained lumber.

Finally, it's my opinion that instability of solid wood with humidity changes is somewhat overrated. Yes, it's true that if you don't design to allow for expansion/contraction, things will bust apart. But my personal experience has been that bow, twist and warp is primarily a problem going from green, fresh-cut wood to kiln-dried, not so much once the wood has been dried and is cut/surfaced/milled into rectilinear forms. The caveat is that this applies to straight-grained wood - definitely not to reaction wood, highly figured wood, or wood with a lot of wild grain due to knots and other defects.

[russell lusthaus]

Peter

Not sure how far north you are, but in NY we can get SYP in many locations that cater to contractors, as it is used as outdoor stair treads on decks etc. It does, however, come with a decorative bull nosed edge, which obviously would have to be ripped off. Since you would be ripping them anyway, no biggie.

Condons lumber in White Plains carries the treads that I am speaking of. I am sure other lumber yards do as well. I would not look for them at the BORG. Personally, I don't see why BORG DF, carefully selected, would not work just as well.

[Jim Koepke]

Ash is an option, but seems much more expensive. KDF and all the local borg stuff is too soft. For those of us who are "latitudinally challenged," is there a low cost option for making a laminated top? If there was, I bet it would be something more of us would try.

Look around for local saw mills. Ask around if anyone knows.

I was lucky that one of the tool shops in town had some flyers from a local sawyer. He had some ash at what ended up being a little less than $1/bf.

Before that my thought was to pick through the local borg for some good Doug Fir.

jtk

[Mike Kelsey]

I have gone through a local Borgs DG 2x8x8 (for a different project) trying to pick out fairly straight boards. Most were either cupped on the face or curved on the edge. I understand I would be ripping them for a straight edge & maybe ending up with a 2x5x8 or there about. But since they are going to be face glued I assume I will have to joint the faces. As I said I don’t have a jointer so I will use my hand planes, but do I need a truly flat working surface to joint the boards with the planes?

[john brenton]

You don't need it to be perfectly jointed, but you will probably have to plane them to get any ripples off. Once it's relatively true the glue swells it up quite a bit and you can get a fairly seamless glue line without going overboard on the planing. Clamping will correct any slight bows, but I strongly suggest clamping with the center of the boards bow AWAY from the mating surface, not having the bowed part being the first point of contact leaving two bowed out wings on the ends.. That way as you clamp in the middle it will naturally pull the ends towards the mating surface. If you don't you'll be clamping like crazy and still not getting enough pressure on them.


I have gone through a local Borgs DG 2x8x8 (for a different project) trying to pick out fairly straight boards. Most were either cupped on the face or curved on the edge. I understand I would be ripping them for a straight edge & maybe ending up with a 2x5x8 or there about. But since they are going to be face glued I assume I will have to joint the faces. As I said I don’t have a jointer so I will use my hand planes, but do I need a truly flat working surface to joint the boards with the planes?

[Tony Shea]

You should be able to get by planing these boards flat and true with the use of some type of horse set up. Do your absolute best to get the horses in perfect wind with eachother and add a horse where ever there will be any bow from downward pressure. And it is an absolute must to use some sort of straight edge and good square. Winding sticks are also very important.

I started out working on 3 peices of MDF laminated together as my first bench. The top did not laminate very flat even though I did very well with using a very flat surface to do it on. This bench was a nightmare to do any kind of hand planing on. With no way to true/flatten that top out I would always end up planing a bow into all my boards. I had to make a 6x6 planing beam similar to what Japanese woodworker's use. This was my temp fix as I could keep this beam perfectly flat, and I actually became very fond of it and still use it to this day. Recently I have set it up just like a Japanese planing beam with the same incline/decline to use with my japanese planes. There is something about the decline and the pull action of the planes that really go hand in hand with our body motion. Very handy fixture in my shop.

So to make a long story short, buy some SYP or Doug Fir and laminate yourself a benchtop. Flatten it with your love of hand planes and never look back at that MDF crap again. Is a waste of time and money every time I use the stuff.

[David Keller NC]

I have gone through a local Borgs DG 2x8x8 (for a different project) trying to pick out fairly straight boards. Most were either cupped on the face or curved on the edge. I understand I would be ripping them for a straight edge & maybe ending up with a 2x5x8 or there about. But since they are going to be face glued I assume I will have to joint the faces. As I said I don’t have a jointer so I will use my hand planes, but do I need a truly flat working surface to joint the boards with the planes?

Mike - Where in the country (assuming it's USA) are you? Looking at the pics you posted to Flickr, I'm going to guess the northern latitudes, but I could be way off. If you're in the Northeast, then you should be able to come up with some fine maple, ash or white oak from a local sawmill for very little. Similarly, if you're in the northwest you may be able to find some good Doug Fir or Bigleaf Maple for not too much money. Might beat the Borg's price, and the mill will usually surface it for you for a small additional fee, which will save you loads of time by doing most of the hardwork for you.

If you want to go with the Borg's stock and can get either SYP or Doug Fir, you may want to pick out stock from the 2" X 12" X 10'. Those boards are typically cleaner (fewer knots) and straighter.

As to handplaning with no bench, this is why you might want to search out a local small sawmill, where you can probably find a 16/4 thick, 6-10" wide beam. With an added stop and a couple of sawbenches, you've got a nice, straight and flat surface that won't bow under handplaning pressure that will let you surface your stock for a glue-up. Once finished with the top, you can then cut up the beam for legs and stretchers, or keep it for some other purpose.

Finally, that small sawmill search may pay off for you in other ways - you may very well find a reasonably priced slab that will make a fine workbench top which will save you a ton of work.

[Bill Moser]

Mike -
You might not want to spend a lot of time/money on a "real" workbench (or power tools for that matter) until your barn is weatherproof. Dampness and temperature changes have a way of destroying such things quickly. So here's another idea -- build or buy a couple of beefy sawhorses (lots of plans for that out there, and easy to to w/o a bench), then throw a big piece of hardwood across them. Like 4" thick, 10" wide, 6-8 feet long. The first thing you can do with your handplanes is to true the top. My bench top started as slabs of 4" thick rock maple with some cup. I took them to a local sawmill to have this planed out. Unfortunately they left me with 1/16" ripples, which I then had to plane out anyway. I should have just dealt with the cup myself. Planing will be a workout but you'll learn a lot from it :)

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Recently I have set it up just like a Japanese planing beam with the same incline/decline to use with my japanese planes. There is something about the decline and the pull action of the planes that really go hand in hand with our body motion....

Yep, it's called gravity. :) I was surprised.

Pam

[Bill Moser]

You should be able to get by planing these boards flat and true with the use of some type of horse set up. Do your absolute best to get the horses in perfect wind with eachother and add a horse where ever there will be any bow from downward pressure. And it is an absolute must to use some sort of straight edge and good square. Winding sticks are also very important.


Yikes, how did I miss Tony's post? (thanks, Pam)! What he said. :o

[glenn bradley]

MDF won't hold a dog very well. Plywood is only a little better.

I had this same concern. Others here who had used dogs in MDF tops told their stories of success and I too have had none of the problems I expected with my four layers of laminated 3/4" MDF top.

I've been using dogs, bench stops and holddowns in it constantly since mid 2007. I expected to make a new bench by now but, this one is holding up so much better than expected; who knows. Its not traditional or near as pretty as other benches but, unfortunately it works great and shows no signs of giving up the ghost.

The surface is quite resilient as prepared (boiled linseed oil on all surfaces including the dog through-holes) and not slippery. I've wiped is down with mineral spirits and re-applied thinned BLO once in its life and have actually waxed it a couple times to avoid things sticking. You can see some of the holes and the surface it in this shot taken just a few days ago:

[Jim Matthews]

With the proper substrate, you should be able to make a "two sided" top, dog holes and all. If the dog holes wear out in use, insert a strip of hardwood by routing a channel - and drill the holes again.

If you mount the top to a sturdy trestle, and make the fixtures reversible, you could flip it over when the top is badly worn.
The only proviso is that you get it flat. I built a small bench with a "cat's back" arch and it was a PITA for clamping.

If you have the materials on hand, and paid for, why not try it out, and let us know how it goes?

Finewoodworking MDF bench plans (http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/18985/still-dont-have-a-workbench-this-one-is-easy)

[Ben Johnson WI]

Another inexpensive option for benchtop material is imperfect unfinished hardwood flooring. I went to a local Lumber Liquidators, and bought up a few bundles of hard maple for about $2/bf - the only damage they had was a few dinged-up tongues. After ripping off the T&G and dressing the surface after you glue it up on the faces, you're left with about 2-7/16" of useable thickness on a 3" board - not quite as good as scoring a slab of 12/4, but close. Gluing it up on edge of course effectively means you're getting it quartersawn, so it should hopefully be more stable.

Plus, if you want your bench to look "fast", you can get a few sticks of a tropical hardwood floor and give your bench a couple of racing stripes. :)

[Mike Kelsey]

after much pondering the advice and opinions i've decided to turn the two laminated pieces of mdf into a assembly table. the top is flat but i thought i would build a 2x4 torsion frame for it. should i glue it to the 2x4's and/or screw it in place?
i figure i can use it as a temporary planing bench till the "real" woodworking bench is built. thanks again for all the feedback

[john brenton]

The thing is Mike that you CAN build your dream workbench. I put a lot of thought and a lot of worry into my bench, and I'm lucky that I'm so happy with mine, because after building it I have the confidence to build any model I want. If I wasn't happy with my bench I'd be building another one right now...and I suck.
after much pondering the advice and opinions i've decided to turn the two laminated pieces of mdf into a assembly table. the top is flat but i thought i would build a 2x4 torsion frame for it. should i glue it to the 2x4's and/or screw it in place? i figure i can use it as a temporary planing bench till the "real" woodworking bench is built. thanks again for all the feedback

[Jerome Hanby]

While many here prefer to laminate their own tops, it's possible to make a decent, workable bench from a manufactured, laminated maple "butcher block" top. There are many companies making/selling these. The principal complaint is that they're not thick enough (typically 1-3/4" thick), but it would be possible to face-glue a couple of these together to make a decently thick top, and it may also be possible to find a company that makes them 3" thick.

I've done that. I bought a 1.5" thick beech counter top from IKEA. It's a bit over 39" wide. I'm planning to rip it down the middle and glue the two layers together in a stack. I've got two huge 8/4 beech planks I'm going to use to box in the counter top, build the vises (shoulder and hopefully a Nyquist tail vise), and possibly build the legs and stretchers. I've had the counter top kicking around the garage for a couple of years, so I hope any seperation of the laminations that is going to occur has already happened. I'm getting the itch to work on the workbench, so I'll post some pictures once I rip the wrapping off the counter top and do my initial rip and glue up.