Which Straightedge to Buy

[Jack Truschel]

Hello to Fellow Creekers,

Lee Valley has two sizes of straightedge available (50" and 38"). I intend to buy just one and am leaning toward the shorter length. Among other tools and equipment, I have a 10" contractor-style TS, a 6" jointer, and a 14" bandsaw. Based on this disclosure, is there any reason(s) I should opt for the longer straightedge?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts/suggestions.

Jack Truschel

[Tim Morton]

The only one I can think of is that buying the 50 is like getting the 38" for free :D

[Jim Barrett]

I have 3 straight edges and use them all, 2, 4 and 6 foot starrett. The 6 ' was expensive (actually they were all expensive) but it is great for aligning jointer tables and checking your workbench. I would get the 50" and then look for a 24" as well.

Jim

[Doug Shepard]

I got a 40" alum. straight edge from LV several years ago. It seems to be a pretty good length for my purposes. But 10 extra inches doesn't sound bad either.

[Chris Padilla]

You need various sizes but I'd go for a long one to start and then pick up some shorter ones as funds become available. However, it really depends on what your plans are for them.

As of right now, I only have a 3' Starrett and it has served me well. I now need a 6' for the J/P I have and it needs to be Al. I had hoped LV would have come out with an even longer one but time will tell....

[Bob Smalser]

Guess I been setting my machines and wood projects up all wrong for the past 40 years...because I've never used anything but a common yardstick.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/85463554.jpg

[mike lucas]

I use the All-in-one clamp as a straight edge. The salesman at the woodworking show said they are gauranteed to be within 3/1000" over the lentgh of them. Only problem sometimes, the clamp ends can get in the way if you are checking something longer then the clamp opening.

I have a 24", 36", 50", and 2-50" doubles. I use the single 50" most of the time. I also have a 72" aluminum level that seems to be very accurate as well. And it was just $28!

[John Miliunas]

Guess I been setting my machines and wood projects up all wrong for the past 40 years...because I've never used anything but a common yardstick.



Well, you see there! It's no wonder none 'o dem boats ever turn out square!:D :cool:

[Bob Smalser]

It's spose to be about making things.

Mostly what it seems to be about is acquiring more and more tools...whether they are needed or not.

Do poor boys make better woodworkers because they are forced to make do?

[Jim Dunn]

Darn Bob I wish I'd never been in a machine shop in my life. I'm so anal about all my machines, what little I've got, being square, flat, parallel, and so on, I've never get time to make anything. I'm still working on jigs and fixtures and LOML swears she's going to mount them on the wall as decorations since I've not made her a thing yet.

Oh, and by the way, Jack get a Starrett!

[Chris Padilla]

It's spose to be about making things.

Mostly what it seems to be about is acquiring more and more tools...whether they are needed or not.

Do poor boys make better woodworkers because they are forced to make do?
Bob,

Each to his own...we all grew up where we did learning what we did and we spend the money we make how we want. Your "crusade" and message is to be applauded but the edginess in your written words sours your message a bit for me....

[Mark J Bachler]

Bob's right, look at all the fine furniture that was made with almost nothing. All ya need is a big enough mallet to make things fit.

[Byron Trantham]

Bob,

Each to his own...we all grew up where we did learning what we did and we spend the money we make how we want. Your "crusade" and message is to be applauded but the edginess in your written words sours your message a bit for me....

I agree with you, Chris....

[Ken Salisbury]

Guess I been setting my machines and wood projects up all wrong for the past 40 years...because I've never used anything but a common yardstick.

I guess I am in the same position (although change from 40 years to >50 years).
I use a fairly heavy duty plastic yardstick or a 48" True Grip clamp as a straight edge.



It's spose to be about making things.

Mostly what it seems to be about is acquiring more and more tools...whether they are needed or not.

I couldn't agree more !



Each to his own...we all grew up where we did learning what we did and we spend the money we make how we want. Your "crusade" and message is to be applauded but the edginess in your written words sours your message a bit for me....

I understand what you are trying to say Chris, but everyone should learn ways to do things differently as they work their way through life. As an example I spent 2 years of my early life as an apprentice machinist at Martin Aircraft Company. The lessons/procedures/disciplines/tolerances, etc learned can be applied to woodworking, however not to the same extremes. Why should we use a measuring device to set up the tools/jigs used with "machine accuracy" that is 10, 20 or 100 times more accurate than we can possibly cut or turn a piece of wood. Besides, if you measure the wooden piece with "machine tool" accuracy today it will be different tomorrow and again the day after. The "stuff" most of us are making is not intended for use on the Space Program but in a totally different venue.



I'm so anal about all my machines, what little I've got, being square, flat, parallel, and so on, I've never get time to make anything. I'm still working on jigs and fixtures and LOML swears she's going to mount them on the wall as decorations since I've not made her a thing yet.

Exactly the point I am trying to make.

The proof is in the finished product, not the disciplines used to produce the product.

I learned much of my woodworking skills from my Dad and my Grandad. I remember my Grandad's 2 straight edges were a 12" square and a string when something longer was needed. :D He was an accomplished wagon maker and pattern maker.

[Greg Mann]

I appreciate what Bob is saying here. My background is metal machining and I drive myself nuts trying to achieve accuracy to the same levels in wood. In the end, it gets in the way of learning good woodworking techniques that accomplish the same thing. I love being able to use a GCSS to get straight edges for glue ups but there are other techniques that work as well, and they can be just as satisfying, or even more so. I appreciate good and accurate machinery but it is really about technique.

Greg

[Michael Sloan]

I usually don't comment when I disagree with posts, just let it ride. But this time, I was put off by both sides of the argument.

If I had the skill and experience that Bob has, I would not NEED precision measuring tools to determine if my machines are accurately set up or not. Bob probably is as accurate just by eye as he (or anyone else) would be with high precision measuring equipment, and probably is much faster by eye as well.

Not having Bob's skill and experience, it is much easier for me to set up my equipment using precision measuring tools, rather than via trial and error. I am busy enough in my real career that I want to maximize the good times in my shop, and minimize the bad times, and I am willing to pay money to do that. Some trial and error is fun, but a lot of it is just frustration.

Same is true with spending money on high quality tools. A truly great craftsman would need just a fraction of the tools that I have to create work that I will never be able to touch. But for me, high quality tools minimize frustration, and maximize satisfaction.

My tool list is significantly longer than my portfolio of finished projects. Both are (in my opinion) very high quality. It's fine by me when Bob to say that he can do better with fewer tools, particularly since it is almost certainly true.
I do not want to put the time in to develop the level of skill that Bob has and I may not have the inate ability, either. I certainly admire it. I am also amused by his ego (which appears to be deserved), as well as by the satisfaction that he takes in demonstrating his abililities.

However, kindly don't tell me that my tools are more important than my portfolio of finished projects, and don't suggest that my desire to have fine tools somehow detracts from my qualifications as someone who enjoys woodworking.

Rant off

[Greg Mann]

Michael,

I did not infer that Bob was telling anyone that his quality of work is necessarily superior. What I believe he was pointing out is that there is a law of diminishing returns when we concentrate ONLY on the equipment side of the equation. I believe we have all probably read posts where someone writes, "Got a new straightedge today and was I disappointed to find out my (insert machine) table was out of flat by .010 inches!!" The point being missed is that said party did not even KNOW it was out until he got the straightedge, AND, UNTIL THAT POINT, IT DID NOT MATTER IN THE QUALITY OF HIS WORK.

Do I appreciate high quality tools? You bet. My tool list is significantly longer than my portfolio as well. But I don't mind if Bob wants to poke a little fun at me along with the rest of us who agonize over that .010". I think he is just pointing out that we should not let that get in the way of our woodworking.

Greg

[Bob Smalser]

Aw. now don't be so sensitive, fellas.....I'm just pulling your chains a bit.

A little counterargument is healthy.

I want to ooh and aah over and maybe contribute to your work if I can, not your gizmo collection.

[Peter Gavin]

I wonder if it would be possible to compare how many posts are about tools vs how many are about projects. After all, tools are supposed to be a means to an end (not that the journey can't be fun too).

Peter

[Chris Daigh]

I have to admit I am enjoying this thread. But this back in forth is what makes woodworking so great, there are so many ways and tools to accomplish the same thing. I can't use or own a good plane to joint wood, I have a jointer which I sometimes can't use or set up either.

[Michael Sloan]

Heck, I thought I was pretty clear that I got no problem at all when Bob tells me he can lick me with one hand tied behind his back. He's demonstrated to my satisfaction that he can, and I ain't got no problem with that. I enjoy it when he shows me how he's gonna do it.

But that don't mean I'm gonna take off my kevlar vest and brass knuckles. I paid for em, and I'm gonna use em.

(All comments in jest. I own an MM16, a MM Cu300S, and a bunch of Festool stuff. I don't own a kevlar vest or a set of brass knuckles)

[Jim Dunn]

I am glad Ken used my post to make his point. I really do enjoy working with my machines as much as I do making "things".
That said, I am more than impressed with the items that Bob S. makes. I never gave any thought as to what type of tools he is using. But I gather he has aquired the tools of his given trade, as a boat/ship builder, from other boatrights (if that is the right word) or made his own. Case in point, Distton Saw company used to produce a saw that was used for boat building. It was capable of sawing in a curve. I don't think anybody is making these saws commercially, so he has to improvise. There in lies his undeniable skills.

I don't own any kevlar either;)
Jim

[Jay Knoll]

Well I've wondered about buying a good straightedge (that is after I buy my Starrett combo square) and thought about Bob's approach.

So I went into the shop/garage and put a 5' level on my workbench, no wobble, dead flat. Then I picked up a Stanley aluminum roofing "square" -- you guessed it, it wobbled when put on the bench -- and on the level. (Guess that's headed for the trash) Grabbed an 18" steel ruler, one side was dead on, the other wobbled.

So, I guess the real point is, as long as you have something you are sure is dead flat, then you can use that as a straightedge for setups. However, if you're not sure, then maybe purchasing one that you are certain will be flat and true of is the only way to have a safe "sure" way of verifying that your other "straight edges" are really that!

Jay

[Greg Mann]

I enjoy my Festools and my Lie-Nielsens as much as any of you, but by themselves, they don't make me a better woodworker. I just know they won't keep me from getting better, and, I will get alot of enjoyment out of them as I learn how to get better. I think we often get seduced into thinking that if our equipment was just a little better, flatter, straighter, then our work will automatically come out better. It's just not true. At my day job, we have a reputation for very high accuracy in our products. Our customers often try to convince our competitors that they could do just as well if they would buy the same brand of equipment we use. Well if you are not holding the work right, using the right tools, using the right sequence of operations, etc. it won't matter how good the quality of the tool is.

This is not to say a good straightedge isn't useful. But it's real value is probably in checking out how straight the work is, not the machine. To that end, the answer to how long the straightedge should be is, "How long is your work?".

Poke fun at us Bob, when the occasion lends itself. Those of us for whom the equipment is part of the passion should be willing laugh at ourselves just a little once in a while.

Greg

[Norman Hitt]

Well I've wondered about buying a good straightedge (that is after I buy my Starrett combo square) and thought about Bob's approach.

So I went into the shop/garage and put a 5' level on my workbench, no wobble, dead flat. Then I picked up a Stanley aluminum roofing "square" -- you guessed it, it wobbled when put on the bench -- and on the level. (Guess that's headed for the trash) Grabbed an 18" steel ruler, one side was dead on, the other wobbled.

So, I guess the real point is, as long as you have something you are sure is dead flat, then you can use that as a straightedge for setups. However, if you're not sure, then maybe purchasing one that you are certain will be flat and true of is the only way to have a safe "sure" way of verifying that your other "straight edges" are really that!

Jay


Hi, Jay, there's another option to "Trashing" those "Wobbly" items. Just take a little time to "Tune" them like you would your other tools.

For Straight edges, use a known flat surface, (like a long jointer bed, a flat piece of MDF, Glass or other item), and attach a long strip of the appropriate sanding medium. ie; sandpaper, emery cloth, etc, and dress the edge of the wobbly item until it is straight, true and flat, (using basically the Scary Sharp Principles, but for straight, flat surfaces instead of a sharp edge).

I think you will be surprised at how little work this turns out to be to make a very useable item from a clunker. A little "retune" is sometimes necessary due to bumps, drops and knocks that the tools invariable get in everyday use in the shop. This is a good reason to "Save" One High quality measuring tool (such as a straight edge, etc.) for just checking your everyday measurement tools, and you will extend the useful life of your everyday tools considerably.

Hope this helps.

[Pete Rosenbohm]

I'll stick with Bob on this one, .010" in woodworking i'll take it everytime, you will get that much wood movement in almost any project you will build:)

[Bob Smalser]

All that said....

...maybe it is about time I replaced Mama's old yardstick stolen from her sewing room with a proper Starrett.

;)

[Mike Cutler]

Don't replace the yardstick yet Bob'. I have a Starrett 6' "Nasty Stick", why? because I pulled it out of the scrap metal dumpster at work after it had lost it's NIST Certs. Does it work? yes, is it accurate? oh yeah. Is it completely necessary? No, but it makes me feel better, it was also free.
My Grandmother worked for Bay Murray of Pasadena Calif, and made alot of slip covers that are on display covering the furniture at Hearst Castle in San Simeon Calif. I played on that furniture in her front room as a child, while the slip covers were being fitted and made. Tool of choice for her work, a yardstick, a 6 ft tailors ribbon, and some really young eyeballs. :eek:. Kinda embarassing to admit, but I could pleat, pin ,dart, and lay out a Simplicity Pattern, before I touched my first woodworking tool:p.
I guess my point here is this. Do what makes you feel good and inspires confidence in your work. If you believe that a certified straightedge or any tool or manufactured 'Jig" will make you a better wood worker, it will, why? because it removes an unknown and allows you to concentrate and focus your attention on other facets of woodworking. Case in point the FMT Jig, I mean really, people have been cutting M&T joints for thousands of years, and suddenly we can't do it with out an FMT Jig? I don't need one, I don't think Bob Smalser needs one. But if you think you need one, you do. Not because you lack skill, or that I know more than you. you simply need it to inspire confidence, and if the money spent makes you more confident in your shop, you will ultimately become a better woodworker and craftsman.
To me a chisel is a chisel, the passion that is connected with chisels, and planes for that matter boggles my mind. I've been using chisels and planes since I was 11 years old, and never knew there was such an art and science associated with them. I admire and respect the people whose passion for these simple tools has allowed me to look at them in a different manner, and understand the mechanics of the design more completely, but in the end all I want is a straight clean wall from the chisel, and a dead flat surface from the plane.
More than .02 by a mile. Thanks for letting me ramble

[Dave Wright #2]

A straightedge should be light, easy to grip, reliably straight, and able to stand fairly solidly on its edge. Longer may seem desirable but shorter ones are more handy and can be moved around to cover areas greater than their length - maybe not to 0.001" accuracy, but accurate enough for machine setup and general woodshop use. I have a couple steel straightedges. They work, and I don't plan to replace them (might as well spend my money on other things), but if buying new I would get the Lee Valley 24" aluminum straightedge. Yup - just 24". No way I would go longer than the 38".

Bob has a valid point of view but he pounds it home so relentlessly in thread after thread that, IMHO, his voice is just as narrow and elitist as that of people whose shops are filled with pricey new tools. The work should stand on its own merits, and I won't feel bad if I got there cutting with a $2500 table saw or a 60 year old Disston handsaw gotten for free out of a friend's attic.

Proud of your new $1200 thickness sander? Too bad you didn't get the $10,000 Timesaver. Now THAT'S a real machine. Proud of how well that Pre-War Stanley you got for $5 at the flea market planes after you reconditioned it? Too bad you didn't spend the time learning how to make your own irons and wood plane bodies. Both paths have no end. Posts that avocate either would do well to stop short of denigrating the talents or priorities of woodworkers who happen to have different sensibilities and budgets.

[Glenn Clabo]

Bob...
Don't take this all on your shoulders or to heart. Your point of view is grounding to some of us. Please don't stop passing on your knowledge. People get offended for everything nowadays. I also frequent other types of forums and you'd be amazed at what arguments come up... "What kind of equipment do I need to take as good photographs as....?" "What kind of pots should I buy to cook..." Someone always says...cooking/shooting with what you have is good enough. If you want to buy equipment...go for it. But don’t be offended when someone says…you don’t NEED it…nor should you expect it to make you a cook or a photographer.

I once taught a photography class...at the first class I handed out cheap cameras and sent the class off to shoot. Guess what...a few of them came back with excellent shots. When I graded them...some students complained about the quality of the cameras. Then I showed them the other students’ shots it was eye opening and only then did they understand what I was saying.

I also know some VERY high placed chefs who laugh about all the equipment the average person buys trying to be just like them. When in reality…they only have equipment to make it cost effective (fast and redundant) as possible.

All that said...I like all my tools and I also like the fact that I can do most of all what I want to do...without the best ones. In my current professional life I find that to be VERY rare. Now...I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Chris Padilla]

Bob,

I figured it out...you need to use more SMILIES in your 'chain-yanking' replies!! :D Then we know you are being sarcastic...most of the time! ;)

See, they work well! :)

[Bob Smalser]

Bob...
Don't take this all on your shoulders or to heart.

Naw....the cost of doing business when you have a minimalist tradesman's message in a world full of consumerists and collectors. Heck...y'all are much further ahead than the Hand Tool crowd...at least you are actually making things and not just collecting and fiddlin with yer tools. ;)

The up side is that there wouldn't be all those high-quality modern tools out there if there wasn't a market.

The down side is that Joe Newbie is persistently bombarded with a bigger and more relentless hammer than mine ever could be that you can't do top-quality work efficiently without a massive investment in a sophisticated home shop...

...and that's nonsense.

It's also nonsense that all this takes incredible talent combined with years of practice. In a previous life I trained hundreds of young gunsmiths doing work related to this hobby and most of the basic skills can be acquired in hours with the right coaching...not years. Takes slightly longer to learn project planning and management and much longer to acquire speed...but that's not important to a hobbyist. "Talent" can't be given to you...whatever that is. Some folks....especially those who couldn't draw a picture with reasonably-accurate proportions in art class (my first pop quiz with budding stockmakers)....and folks who have trouble "seeing" in three dimensions...need to rely on plans and patterns more and for longer til they develop their "eye".

Join a guild or club and find the right mentor rather than look to the latest gizmo for what you need.

[Dan Gill]

Okay, I have to chime in here because I can empathize with both sides of this discussion. I've read many, many posts gloating about purchasing tools that I cannot begin to afford. I've also seen Bob and some others showing off projects I can't begin to compete with. I've enjoyed both, and sometimes been put off by both, as well. So I'm kind of in both camps.

I am incredibly appreciative of all the good advice and the good humor on this site. It's not that way everywhere, believe me. That said, I didn't see anything edgy about Bob's initial post. And I'm in the market for a good straightedge myself. But I can see how it might put some off.

For myself, I would like to have that Unisaw and all the nice planes, and the outrageously priced Festools, but I have to content myself with my BT3100 and the inexpensive chisels. In the same way, I would like to make beautiful sailing vessels, but for now I just have to content myself with relatively simple cabinets, tables, and such.

It's all good, guys. And this is one place where everybody plays nice.

[Jim Dunn]

Dan hit the proverbial nail on the head "It's all good, guys. And this is one place where everybody plays nice". I couldn't agree more!! Playing nice has been drummed into us since childhood. I've never been associated with a nicer bunch of people, both talented and not so talented, as I have been here. It's my home on web:).

Jim

[Alan Tolchinsky]

A straightedge should be light, easy to grip, reliably straight, and able to stand fairly solidly on its edge. Longer may seem desirable but shorter ones are more handy and can be moved around to cover areas greater than their length - maybe not to 0.001" accuracy, but accurate enough for machine setup and general woodshop use. I have a couple steel straightedges. They work, and I don't plan to replace them (might as well spend my money on other things), but if buying new I would get the Lee Valley 24" aluminum straightedge. Yup - just 24". No way I would go longer than the 38".

Bob has a valid point of view but he pounds it home so relentlessly in thread after thread that, IMHO, his voice is just as narrow and elitist as that of people whose shops are filled with pricey new tools. The work should stand on its own merits, and I won't feel bad if I got there cutting with a $2500 table saw or a 60 year old Disston handsaw gotten for free out of a friend's attic.

Proud of your new $1200 thickness sander? Too bad you didn't get the $10,000 Timesaver. Now THAT'S a real machine. Proud of how well that Pre-War Stanley you got for $5 at the flea market planes after you reconditioned it? Too bad you didn't spend the time learning how to make your own irons and wood plane bodies. Both paths have no end. Posts that avocate either would do well to stop short of denigrating the talents or priorities of woodworkers who happen to have different sensibilities and budgets.

Dave, I agree with you and what you say makes a lot of sense. Alan

[Alan Tolchinsky]

It's spose to be about making things.

Mostly what it seems to be about is acquiring more and more tools...whether they are needed or not.

Do poor boys make better woodworkers because they are forced to make do?

I agree with this premise. For awhile I wanted every tool/machine in site until one day it dawned on me. You don't need every machine in the world for wood working. Now I'm more PROJECT oriented rather than thinking about which new machine to buy next. I'm always looking for new projects and ideas and even copy things I see. I have a modest size shop and tool collection ( a relative thing) and I can do anything I want to with it. So I'm looking for things to make not more machines to buy at this point. It's taken me 2-3 years to come to this point.

[Frank Pellow]

I have enjoyed reading the various well articulated points of view in this thread. Strangely enough, I find myself agreeing with conflicting statements. I guess its because: (1) I have done a lot of "rough and ready" measurements in my day and the results have, for the most part, been just fine; but (2) I have the 38" Lee Valley straight edge and have put it to good use several times and gives me confidence to know that I have something straight that I can absolutely trust.

Returning to the original question in this thread, the 38" length is all I that I ever needed. I have a 48" level my 38" straight edge tells me is straight and, a very few, I have relied on the combination.

Last year, a friend of mine used my straight edge to prove to General that the table on his new bandsaw should be replaced. He simply mentioned on the phone the tool he had used to do the checking and they sent him a new table.