Time Trials

[Craig Matheny]

We all seem to be talking lately about how fast our laser is and how it cuts so well. I have attached a file here and in a different post, I thought this might be better for this. Please rune the attached file on your laser with 1/8" Baltic Birch submit your machine and wattage, speed/pwr/freq and how long it took to run the file. With this we can now talk apples to apples when we talk speed and wattage

[Craig Matheny]

Time trials pwr 100/ sp 16% / freq 150 time to run 68 seconds.

[Joe Pelonio]

I'm in the middle of cutting 2,000 ABS parts for a customer but will try it when I have time later this week. I'd really suggest another material, though. There is a big variance in the density of Baltic depending on the country of origin,
glue used, dryness etc. that can affect times. Probably basswood is a better test, though acrylic of the same brand and color might be even better. Maybe people can try a few options and others will have the same thing to try.

[Richard Rumancik]

I don't mean to discourage you, Craig, as the concept is sound. But I really think the sample file is more complex than what is really needed to do a comparison. I would suggest two shapes (separate files) - a simple square and a simple circle - would be adequate to characterize a laser's cutting speed - say 5" (127 mm) square/diameter. Joe's suggestion to use acrylic is a good one - 3 mm extruded clear acrylic is one of the most common materials and most users will have some around. There are probably some variations between manufacturers but based on past posts, baltic birch is one of the materials with a high degree of variation.

[Craig Matheny]

The concept was based off of allot of people talking about how long it takes to cut 1/2" Baltic Birch and the back and forth so if you have straight lines or soft curves you can cut faster but then it is not a true test having different degrees takes into account speeding up and down of the movement in the head. So that is why the goofy file. I personally have an interest in the Baltic Birch being I cut this stuff all day my laser would have no clue what to do with acrylic it would most likely cry.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Richard and Joe,
I agree with Craig on this one because it is setting a base to work with since so many do use 3mm Baltic birch. Obviously everyone is probably getting it from a different mill unless of coarse they got it from me:). I think this will still be somewhat educational because so many people ask me about settings and how long it takes with a 30 watt or a 45 watt to cut a tribute or ornament and I have no idea but even with a 60 watt since mine is a Trotec, my cutting speed is a different IPS than an Epilog, ULS, GCC, Vytek, Kern, or _____ (fill in the blank with yours).

My 3mm that specs out at .126" runs at 100% power and .95 speed
My 3mm that specs out at .117" runs at 100% power and 1.10 speed
now that's over a 10% difference. My hertz is at 5000. Now that only applies to a Trotec since you others have different settings. Now this is still my original 60 watt CO2 laser tube from march of 2003.

It should also be noted that so many people call 1/8"/3mm Baltic birch the same when there are many differences in glue and time of the year the logs were harvested. So for consistency, please make sure you can confirm that it is GENUINE Baltic birch, what mill it comes from (if known) probably only available to those that buy full bundles but you can ask your supplier. I will post mine with the test results.
Is a a B/BB or BB/BB?
Did it come from west coast or east coast?
How old is your laser?
If you have replaced your tube, how new is it?
What lens are you using? 1.5", 2",3.5", 4", 5" or other
make sure your lens is clean before you start;)
Are you using air assist or not?
How many CFM does your fume extractor have?
Does it extract from the back, bottom or both?
Has it been treated? For sake of continuity lets keep them all RAW.
is your laser tube a Synrad, Coherent, glass or other?
Does your laser use steppers or servos or both?
Is your laser room temperature controlled :cool: or a sweat house:mad:?
Are you using a honeycomb table, a pin table or other support system?
When you cut through, do you get flash back on the bottom because you use excess power, by going to slow, to get all the way through?

If anyone else can think of something else to add ( I know you want to Dan) to this list to make this as scientific as possible with out really calling it a scientific research test, feel free to add on.

I will try the test file later this week when I can and post my time and almost scientific research data back here.

[Rodne Gold]

3mm cast or excluded acrylic is a better bet , most ppl that own lasers will have some scrap of it and basically the density and composition varys very little worldwide. Any torture or thruput test must include both raster and vector graphics and have a set dpi. You can also do each individually and time them. All you are doing in this particular test that is mooted is to test relative powers or power densitys and not really speed as cutting thru stuff that requires very low speeds , where 2 lasers have the same power density , they should be more or less equal , or a higher or lower powered laser should have a time difference proportional to power.There are way too many factors that affect both materials and the particular laser to make any exact comparisons between various models and makes. One set of factors might make one machine better in one test and changing them might favour another.

[Craig Matheny]

Rodney you would think that they would be close for the same power however we have a guy stating 100% pwr 90% speed with a 35 watt zing from epilog I did a demo on a 40 watt epilog and it cut 60% then my 45 watt epilog they now make there own tubes. So the key to this is getting to understand the time it takes to do a set of cuts. The acrylic is the best product but the key is two fold understanding the Baltic Birch Market and the laser speeds to power.

[Dan Hintz]

If anyone else can think of something else to add ( I know you want to Dan) to this list to make this as scientific as possible with out really calling it a scientific research test, feel free to add on.
<chuckle> I was skimming the list in about 3 seconds when that sentence caught my eye ;-)

I think a lot of the items mentioned could better be boiled down to "What's the actual output power of the tube being used." and "How fast can the carriage move in both vector or raster modes.". From a power standpoint, it's (mostly) irrelevant whether or not the tube is glass (DC) or metal (RF), domestic or foreign, age of tube, steppers or servos, etc. Start out with max carriage speed and beam power at the carriage. If you want to get more complicated, pay attention to ramp up/down speeds of the carriage (Trotec, for example, obviously does a better job at this than the others). But I think the first-order test of max speed and max power should be good enough for government work.

[Mike Null]

I think projects such as this are largely efforts in futility but at least there ought to be a constant. Plywood is in no way a constant; those who suggest acrylic are much closer to the mark.

That should be clear acrylic of a specified thickness and type.

[Richard Rumancik]

Perhaps I misunderstood the reason for the test - I assumed it was to compare lasers, so that one could have some confidence that their laser is operating properly. Otherwise, we have someone saying "why does my GCC cut at 2% speed and an Epilog cuts at 20% speed". Seems to me if you want to characterize the laser's capability/functioning, you need a constant substrate to test on. As I noted recently in another post, % speed is not transferable between laser systems. But if we all cut 20 linear inches of 3mm acrylic, the job time is a meaningful comparison.

On the other hand, if you want to characterize the Baltic Birch on the market, you need a constant laser system. One person can do this investigation and hopefully find the best baltic birch. But collectively we don't have constant laser systems so I don't see how using variable laser systems on variable baltic birch samples, and comparing the results, will tell us much. You can only have one independent variable in an experiment.

If baltic birch is not cutting properly on a system, then I would want to know if the laser is operating properly in general. The best way to do this is to test on a material which lasers well. That material is acrylic. Whether you make parts from acrylic or not, the first objective is to find out if your system will cut acrylic properly (with speed comparable to other users that have similar wattages of machines). Once that is established, then the baltic birch can be introduced into the experiment. Then it becomes an exercise in finding the best baltic birch on the market on the basis as to how well it lasers. That has much more to do with the product than with the lasers.

I suggested 3mm clear extruded acrylic as a test substrate because it is inexpensive and readily available, and it can be cut in one pass using the lowest power (25 watt) systems. I prefer the use of extruded over cast, because the thickness tolerance on extruded is tighter than on cast material. I might add one more parameter - use a 2" FL lens for the test. If you use something else, a comparison will be difficult and results ambigious. Parameters such as PPI should be set to the optimum value.

You could take an alternate approach to comparing systems and just look at the numbers - get a power meter and measure output power, determine maximum speed, measure spot size, etc. But in the end the only thing that matters is throughput. How fast can the laser cut a 5" circle in 3mm clear acrylic? Once a user is satisfied that the system is optimized, then they can try to cut baltic birch or rubber or carbon fibre knowing that their system is as good as it will be.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Yes I agree that 3mm acrylic would be better for a real test but this particular post stemmed from people having issues with Baltic Birch. So since Craig, the OP, started this time test with Baltic Birch, I think it should stay the topic of this post. If 3mm acrylic is requested as the test material, then a new post should be started for it, since results & settings will be different. This way if someone reads this archived post in 17 years there will be less confusion.:confused:

Dan, I thought you'd get a :D out of it. Yes it could be but I was just throwing out items that could be relevant if taken to the next level. Not everyone has a power meter or would be willing to pay to rent one for a day. So that is a hard item to put in the equation, though it is a good one. Each one of the items I listed may or may not effect the output of the laser but each one is a variable that if a newbie or a seasoned laserer finds their settings may be able to be tweaked a little to get better results, then it was worth mentioning.

Craig,
You have 1/2" BB in your post (2 above) and I think it should be 1/8"/3mm.

[Neil Pabia]

Not too sure what it is going to prove, but I was bored and ran the test 3 times.
test 1 100 power, 35 speed, 150 freq., 58 seconds
test 2 100 power, 40 speed, 150 freq,. 54 seconds
test 3 100 power, 45 speed, 150 freq,. 52 seconds didn't cut completely in 2 small spots
Hope that helps some.

[Ron Chapellaz]

we have a guy stating 100% pwr 90% speed with a 35 watt zing from epilog.

I'm that guy, and today I did Craig's test. Here are my results with my zing 35W.
Test 1: 85 speed, 100 power 500 freq. 52 seconds
Test 2: 95 speed, 100 power 500 freq. 51 seconds
Test 3: 100 speed, 100 power, 500 freq. 49 seconds.

Every test yielded a complete cut through the wood. I haven't played with the freq setting so I'm not sure if that would improve the speed or not.

I'm not that far off from Neil's time but then again he has a 60W. It is obvoius that Neil's machine should be able to beat me in a speed race as he was going on his last test at 45 speed compared to me at 100.

There could be a few reasons as to why our machines come in at about the same time such as the machine's actual wattage, quality of the wood, extractor, lens condition, and more as Michael has suggested in his above post.

I'd like to see how others compare. It is an interesting topic!

[Martin Boekers]

[QUOTE=Dan Hintz;1744038x should be good enough for government work.[/QUOTE]

Hey, Hey Hey....... Some of us take Government work to a whole new level! :cool:

[Martin Boekers]

Ron, I want a Zing like yours! Is it on steroids? I don't cut Birch, but am no where near that
with Alder or Cherry. Even at 75watts. Both have recent tubes and tested in at 75.
Is Birch real light and easier to cut?

[Mike Mackenzie]

I would like to add something to this. There are vector speeds that are controlled through the driver that really do not equate to the number you set. It is controlled by what the MFG determines to be a threshold speed for there motion systems. Example speed 20 is just a number the driver controls. What the vector speeds really are is usually done behind the scenes. The example of Ron's test say alot in the fact that the actual TIME is only three seconds different using a range from 85-100. What this is telling me is there is a max vector speed that is programmed into the driver.

Its not what SPEED # you put into the driver as it is the TIME it takes to cut.

By the way when I have a chance I will run this file using four different era systems all with different powers. Everything from a 10 year old system to a brand new system.

[Tom Majewski]

In the cnc router area we all talk inches per minute. Maybe we should put rulers on our beds and make a cross reference chart.

[Richard Rumancik]

I would like to add something to this. There are vector speeds that are controlled through the driver that really do not equate to the number you set. It is controlled by what the MFG determines to be a threshold speed for there motion systems. . . . Its not what SPEED # you put into the driver as it is the TIME it takes to cut.

You are right, Mike, it depends on what the driver does when commanded to cut at a specific speed. In the GCC Mercury, there would be NO difference between 85% speed and 100% speed - in fact, I found out that the Mercury maxes out somewhere around 30-35% speed if I recall correctly. In other words, the GCC driver limits the top vector speed to be around 30% of maximum rated machine speed (that being the raster speed). So any vector speed setting above 35% won't appear to have an effect on job time as internally it is maxed out. Epilogs have a separate vector maximum speed so they will behave differently.

Tom, I only wish we could talk in inches per minute (or inches per second) . But the laser manufacturers generally only talk i.p.s. for rastering and this is a maximum. I am waiting for the day that we can actually input the speed in ips in the driver (rather than as a percentage-speed) like a real machine tool.

[Dan Hintz]

Hey, Hey Hey....... Some of us take Government work to a whole new level! :cool:
According to my wife, those levels are typically populated by devilish imps and freakish sub-humans.

[Craig Matheny]

Craig,
You have 1/2" BB in your post (2 above) and I think it should be 1/8"/3mm.

Correct 3mm 1/8"

[Adrian Hill]

There are a number of issues to consider:
1. If the cut path is optimized from left top to right bottom, it should be faster than right top to to left bottom. I think so because right to left the carriage would have to retrace from the right bottom to the lft top whereas if if cuts from left top to right bottom it would only retrace from mid Y left to top right.
2. The speed of the carriage movement between cuts is also a factor. This could totally skew the test.

I also don't think that one should do anything special such as cleaning the lenses etc before running the test, the idea is to test the speed in real world conditions rather than ideal conditions. I think that it isn't a speed test, it is more of a general performance benchmark.

I agree with a number of other people:
1. Use 3mm Perpex.
2. Cut a square without having the carriage reposition during the cut. (this will prove the cut speed)
3. One could also check the carrige speed simply by instead of cutting a square in 4 lines, cut only 4 x 2mm circles at the corners.

[Chuck Stone]

In the GCC Mercury, there would be NO difference between 85% speed and 100% speed - in fact, I found out that the Mercury maxes out somewhere around 30-35% speed if I recall correctly. In other words, the GCC driver limits the top vector speed to be around 30% of maximum rated machine speed (that being the raster speed). So any vector speed setting above 35% won't appear to have an effect on job time as internally it is maxed out. Epilogs have a separate vector maximum speed so they will behave differently.

I just ran several copies of the same file. Wrote down the times
50 speed 4:19
30 speed 4:20
20 speed 4:20
15 speed 4:11
10 speed 4:26

no apparent difference in the cutting, either. Once I get down below 10, it slows down and
there's a noticeable difference in the cutting. This is on a 30w Mercury

[Craig Matheny]

I am really frustrated with this post and some of the ones I have read lately....It is very interesting that some one can post something (in this case me) and so many people can give their 2 cents worth (you and that is what we want) but so many do not stay on topic. This post was done for one reason and one reason only to get all of us that cut allot of Baltic Birch on some what of the same page with out making it some scientific process. Yes it is not a perfect test by any means but as you have read in this post everyone has an opinion on how the test should be done so what is the correct answer? There is none. So I asked for some simple information from those that want to share their settings and some have, but most of you went off topic or wanted to change the request to what you wanted to see happen start a new post it free.

I have been here for a short time (and probably just wore out my welcome) and I have noticed that as every forum you go to, That there is always a select few that always has to have an opinion on every topic and half the time the post is irrelevant to the original topic (you know who you are). The idea behind this forum is to help others not hear yourself type and try to be funny.

I will step down off my soap box and if I offended you then sorry but I believe this needed to be said.

[Doug Griffith]

there is always a select few

...and I haven't even thrown in my nonsensical logic.

I think part of the problem is that whatever information is gathered and surmised as fact will, in time, be falsely perceived as fact by future readers of this thread. The regulars you mention are just trying to approach it from the best possible angle to achieve the best possible results.

In a nutshell, if enough people posted their results using various materials, machines and settings. I'm talking thousands. We'd be able to apply some math and generate a power/speed/freq curve that we could use as a base. That would be about it. A base.

My 2 cents.

[Rodne Gold]

This is a public participation forum and you really have no right to dictate the terms of an answer or who should answer. Your attitude in this post leaves much to be desired in my opinion , others are not trying to derail your thread , they are trying to help , not hinder you.

[Adrian Hill]

I must point out that I only put in 2c ZAR which equates to only 0.00291226 US Dollars. I would have liked to put in 2c USD but that is far too rich for my blood.

[Jiten Patel]

I like to sing in the shower. Sorry for straying, just thoughts I put in my 2 pence, yes that's right pence!

[Chuck Stone]

I have been here for a short time (and probably just wore out my welcome) and I have noticed that as every forum you go to, That there is always a select few that always has to have an opinion on every topic and half the time the post is irrelevant to the original topic (you know who you are). The idea behind this forum is to help others not hear yourself type and try to be funny.

Is this your first time visiting a forum, Sparky?

[Douglas J Miller]

I must point out that I only put in 2c ZAR which equates to only 0.00291226 US Dollars. I would have liked to put in 2c USD but that is far too rich for my blood.

And your contribution is highly appreciated! Thank you!

<<I like to sing in the shower.>>

Not me. We have two dogs, and they like to join in. Problem is the wife says she can't tell the difference between the dogs howls and mine. Pretty humbling, actually.

[Dan Hintz]

I have been here for a short time (and probably just wore out my welcome) and I have noticed that as every forum you go to, That there is always a select few that always has to have an opinion on every topic and half the time the post is irrelevant to the original topic (you know who you are). The idea behind this forum is to help others not hear yourself type and try to be funny.
What you obviously fail to realize is the people going "off topic" (your definition, i.e., not sticking to the exact rules set down by you in your original post) are typically more experienced than you in the subject you're asking about. Some of us are engineers or scientists, so yes, we're going to try and keep the testing "methodology" a little more rigorous than what many non-scientists lay out. If you choose to ignore the advice of those more experienced than you, that's your choice... but don't complain when your "results" are little more than random chance. And that's exactly what you're getting here based upon your original request...

I'll be sure not to bother you with my experienced advice in the future...

[Neil Pabia]

Must be the heat.
I have both my 18000btu AC's cranking and just got my shop down to a chilling 96 degrees. I have a funny feeling that this will be a short day here for me, that and the fact that I rode my bike in today, I can see a nice long ride along the coast later, checking out the beaches and bikinis.

[Martin Boekers]

According to my wife, those levels are typically populated by devilish imps and freakish sub-humans.

Not so sure about the freakish subhuman, but a bit of devilish imp.... Absolutly! :D

[Martin Boekers]

Wow, I thought we were a pretty decent forum.

If you have been around for any length of time you would realize the variables that occur in every
product. Esp "organic" ones such as wood, esp again when an adhesive is involved. So yes, I hate to
say it I agree that this test is really not giving us much to achieve outside of confirming the variences can and may be great.
If it was that simple to say this is what a substate "should" engrave at, I think that "suggested" settings
from the manufacturer would be much closer for all of us.

There are quite a few variables that we can't control so why should we not suggest one that we can "closer"
control?

If you think this forum is tough, check out some others, many can get down personal.

[Craig Matheny]

Wow, I thought we were a pretty decent forum.

If you have been around for any length of time you would realize the variables that occur in every
product. Esp "organic" ones such as wood, esp again when an adhesive is involved. So yes, I hate to
say it I agree that this test is really not giving us much to achieve outside of confirming the variences can and may be great.
If it was that simple to say this is what a substate "should" engrave at, I think that "suggested" settings
from the manufacturer would be much closer for all of us.

There are quite a few variables that we can't control so why should we not suggest one that we can "closer"
control?

If you think this forum is tough, check out some others, many can get down personal.

Martin you just made my point this post was started for people cutting Baltic Birch not acrylic we all know there is a ton of variables we deal with that daily from sheet to sheet. But that is the product we cut and by use trying to help each other figure out the best quality, different suppliers, what we can do to make it cut better, less char or if lucky faster then we need to work with the product we cut daily. We all can cut 3mm acrylic at x speed so what Some of us don't cut acrylic it does none of use that cut Baltic birch any good, with a couple tweaks acrylic is set up and done sheet after sheet the same. However, as mentioned many times Baltic birch has so many variables that maybe if we all pull together stay focused on the task at hand we might just be able to help someone solve some of there issue or realize that they are doing the best they can with what they have.

"If you think this forum is tough, check out some others, many can get down personal." No I don't think this forum is tough on the contrary I believe there are many great men and women in this forum that have years of experience and opportunities to help (Rodne Gold) going to China and the research he did, most of us would never be able to do this his post are priceless and I don't see anyone asking about buying a car over there however when Rodne decided to go back for trophies he started a new post, I think there is lack of focus at times to what is asked and instead of not posting post some one will post something that is just plain irrelevant and then the post goes side ways with stuff that does not matter just like this post has done.

Thanks to the few that did participate in this post and the rest of you I hope we see each other in other post and can stay focused.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Well the only way that this could have been done the way some of you have suggested would have been to have everyone get a sample, say a 12"x12", of the same sheet of 3mm and each piece miked to make sure they are the same thickness. But that would be in a paid to participate research project. This is not so here is what my test shows:
202550

Just in case some of you can't read,



from the attached photo that is,
(I took it at Hi Res 14 Megapixel but had to drop it down to 640K to upload it here)
the test stats are as follows:

22 seconds estimated by Trotec's Job Time calculator
28 seconds actual laser time
100 % power at 1.33 % speed and 2500hz
done on a 2003 trotec Speedy II 60 watt laser still using original Synrad Firestar T60 tube.

added after**Forgot to mention I use a 1.5" lens (red one for Trotec users)**

Actual material thickness .123"
on GENUINE BALTIC BIRCH (See pic for stamp)

The pieces that were cut out are on the box to show the edge quality but the camera focused on the text.

I guess many of you are having a hard time dealing with this heat. In Houston we call it July & August.

Neil, since I was born and raised in Ct and lived there for 26 years, I know the difference between there and here. 95 to 100+ is the norm down here, during the summer, and factor in the Humidity of 80-95% and then you will know what HOT is.

I do miss the change of seasons, lower humidity and terrain that is more than 10 feet above sea level but I can wear shorts 11 1/2 months out of the year down here. So I tolerate the heat to reap the many other benefits of living on the 30th degree parallel or for you GPS junkies 30 degrees 1'18.4" N95 degrees 28'23.2"W

Arizona has parts that are 110 +- but with out the humidity it is probably not as bad but still hot and makes those AC's run all the time.

Ooooops I got side tracked but that is what keeps it from being a sterile environment and adds a little character and personality to the posts.

No body forces anyone to read every post but it does put a smile on someone's face every once in a while, Right Dan?:eek::D:rolleyes:;)

Just my humble opinion and ...

[Martin Boekers]

We all seem to be talking lately about how fast our laser is and how it cuts so well. I have attached a file here and in a different post, I thought this might be better for this. Please rune the attached file on your laser with 1/8" Baltic Birch submit your machine and wattage, speed/pwr/freq and how long it took to run the file. With this we can now talk apples to apples when we talk speed and wattage

Ok, I went back to the original post to see were I may have missinterporated something.

"Please rune the attached file on your laser with 1/8" Baltic Birch submit your machine and wattage, speed/pwr/freq and how long it took to run the file. With this we can now talk apples to apples when we talk speed and wattage"

I'm not sure how we are comparing Apples to Apples?


Variables;

Wood - Where it was grown
How old is the wood
Moisture content
Solid, plywood or venneer
If not solid, what is ply made from
Thickness of Birch compared to the inner ply
Does the wood have an outer treatment
Indoor or outdoor variety
Grade of wood

Binding material if a ply wood;

Organic or rendered adhesive ooposed to systhisized
Consitant application of adhesive
Saturation point of adhesive to the wood
Consitant adhesive from batch to batch

Lasers;

Actual out put of the tube
Lens issues
Mirror issues
First run as to running after hours of use.
Alignment of the laser
Focus of the laser
Beam quality
Standard lens or enhanced optics
Specs on lenses

Location factors

Ambient temperature
Relative humidity
Stabilized power supply


These are just a few variables that come to mind.
So yes, I am confused on how we are comparing apples to apples.

All we have is Birch and a laser, so yes we are going to have as many
outcomes as lasers. So what do we do with that info now?

What does a setting tell me without any more information?

As far as asking Rodne (sorry Rodne you became a part of this) asking him about a car when he
is shopping for trophys? Yes ridiculus!

NOW asking Rodne about Granite and the different types and how each reacts to lasering and why
it would react, that whould tell us something.

Asking your supplier of Birch about whether it is kiln dried, the moisture content, adhesives used,
consitancy of adhesive coat, how it react to extreme heat (laser), consitancy batch to batch
as to where it was harvested, adhesive, thickness, binders.

Now that would make it apples to apples.

This information would be of use to us all!

As for acrylic, actually acrylic does vary a bit in thickness, and whether extuded are cast
or even cell cast. So again it isn't a one size fits all. Is it more consitant than organic material?
Yes it is. That's why, for testing lasers it was recommended.

Not just to take a thread and run with it.

[Rodne Gold]

Actually this thread really illustrates the point that to laser anything succesfully , you need to know a ton about "material science" and exactly how a laser works and reacts with the particular substrate and its component parts. My staff were amazed that with my new machines that I estimated setting for various stuff and was almost spot on with each. It comes with experience and knowledge.
There is no set formula that one can use to extrapolate a setting using one machine and a material as a base point, witness the many threads over the years where users want to establish a settings database , which have never got off the ground.
The thing with this thread , even if one gets a result , is what do you do with it? Assuming another persons machine is faster than yours , then what do you do if small fixes you try to optimise yours dont make yours come close? Stop all production and buy a new more expensive machine or source or an expensive upgrade? If its working for you , then having angst as to whether yours is fastest or is not as fast is counterproductive.. if it's not broken then often its a good idea not to try fix it.

[Martin Boekers]

Well said!

[Craig Matheny]

Well I guess I was not clear on the first post, but I know it has been said a few different times in this post that this is to get an idea of the times with 1/8" Baltic Birch and not scientific so when someone says I cut a .2 sp or 17% or 100% (epilog on steroids) we can relate a time to it. However, it seems I am the new guy and Martin along with other old-timers seems to what to run this in to a scientific thing and control this post so I pass the torch to you all (please don't take it personal as it is not) just tired of the BS of not accomplishing anything. So far we have wasted almost a week and accomplished nothing (just like most of our government is doing these days). So I will bow out and see if anything gets done, from what I have seen in this post and others understanding times and speeds between different manufactures seems to be an issue, but yet some of you have been here 4 -5 years and still ask the same thing "how fast is .2 or 17%" and do not have an answer. So lets continue in the standard government method and continue to debate the perfect way to test this and accomplish nothing as we have so graciously done here..

See you all around the board....

[Scott Shepherd]

Craig, I couldn't help you in your trial because I don't have any baltic birch. I do think there would be some interest and usefulness in doing some across the board, unscientific testing for sure.

I think it could help people decide on brands/models when shopping as well. It probably won't be the deciding factor, but it can possible help. For instance, if this test was done in on something like a Rowmark or IPI Plastic, I would think it could have some serious value.

I'd love to see a row of name plates laid out, and then people posting the times. If I were shopping for a laser and I saw that Lasers A and B took 6 minutes 30 seconds to engrave them, Laser C took 2 minutes 45 seconds, and laser D took 11 minutes, I'd probably seriously use that information when shopping.

I don't think you were wrong to ask, by any means. I do think you'd have a lot more luck with time trials if the material were less variable, like Baltic Birch Ply. Just so many variables, with wood, glue, humidity, etc.

Maybe we'll take another go at it and do some panel tags or name tags, or name plates. I'd love to see the results, time wise, along with scanned or macro shots of the work so we could compare results.

Just a thought.....

[Martin Boekers]

Sorry if I offended you, not my intent. If I told you I have a 75watt laser and I cut .125 Baltic Birch at 8sp 40pwr 280freq What does
that tell you? That's what works for me in my environment and my laser on that sheet of wood. How that can relate to what works for
you I'm not sure? So If this helps this is what I start at when I cut .125 Alder. It can vary from sheet to sheet.

As for us "Old Timers" I have been on a laser for 5+ years and I still feel like a "Newbie" at times. I am always learning something new
or why something reacts the way it does. Some here have worked with laser 10 or more years. So if you want to say trying to figure
out why wood reacts the way it does when a variety of reasons is scientific and BS and wasted time. That's up to you.

You are right though, when you say that answers about power, speed & freq haven't fully been answered through all the years of posting,
just maybe it has to do with these "scientific" & "control" things. That it's not as simple as "this should be done at these settings."
You can get closer by controlling the few things you can, staying with a consistant wood and storage. iIn the case of wood. I can't even
control the thickness of what I order. You can mic what you have and you'll find out it does vary. So one day this setting works and
another day it's slightly different.

Again I appologize if I offended you, there is much information here, it's up to you to sort out
what will work for you in your shop.

I promise, I am finished on this post. Becareful about blaming the government for everything. There are good Government workers out there doing the best that they
can and improving the system as they go. This I personally do know.

[Craig Matheny]

"If I told you I have a 75watt laser and I cut .125 Baltic Birch at 8sp 40pwr 280freq What does
that tell you?" What you didn't say is how long it took that is the key to understanding what 8 sp means.
So lets bury this post shake hands and start over tomorrow.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

To Everyone!!!
This post was originally about the cutting time of 1/8" aka 3mm Baltic Birch and not Chinese birch ply or any other material. Since Craig cuts it all day long and I cut my fair share, it is of interest to us. Many others also cut BB either daily or with good frequency and it may be of interest to them but I don't want to and rarely do name tags and I rarely by Rowmark, IPI or any other brand of 2 layer material. So if one of you started a post to get more scientific empirical data on running a dozen name tags using the same material bought from the same supplier and comparing results that would be valuable info to anyone that may be interested in doing name tags with that material. I for one would just look at the post occasionally but would not buy the material and probably not participate because it is currently of no interest to me and I would not try to steer it in another direction such as "What are the different affects of engraving cast acrylic vs extruded?"

From my stand point all the other info is superfluous unless the time is dramatically less. Then if someone does come in a with a time significantly less than mine I would want to know what they are doing or have, that I don't, so I could optimize my settings or system. I would also try to extrapolate from their settings, info that lined up with mine, so that I could make some formula, in a spreadsheet, to convert their settings to line up for my laser's inputs.

So has anybody beat my actual time, of 28 seconds(from home to home) with a 60watt laser other than a Trotec? What's that? Did I hear the wing of a zsti zsti fly hit a dust particle? Oh the silence is deafening.:rolleyes:

Anyone who is not smiling right now, come on and let it go. It is easier to smile :D than frown :( and by the way ...

[Doug Griffith]

I attempted to gather this information a few years ago and compile it into a user contributable website. While I knew it would just be a base starting point, what put the brakes on was the ability to promote it. It's against Sawmill Creek's terms to promote a 3rd party website. Even if a settings table for Baltic birch is built and attached to a thread, it will quickly be buried and lost.

[Neil Pabia]

I guess many of you are having a hard time dealing with this heat. In Houston we call it July & August.

Neil, since I was born and raised in Ct and lived there for 26 years, I know the difference between there and here. 95 to 100+ is the norm down here, during the summer, and factor in the Humidity of 80-95% and then you will know what HOT is.

I do miss the change of seasons, lower humidity and terrain that is more than 10 feet above sea level but I can wear shorts 11 1/2 months out of the year down here. So I tolerate the heat to reap the many other benefits of living on the 30th degree parallel or for you GPS junkies 30 degrees 1'18.4" N95 degrees 28'23.2"W


The temperature is just another excuse to take a my Harley out for a long ride, which I did and had a blast. The beaches were full of bikinis and I had a great view. As far as knowing about hot, I spent a little time(10+ years) where it was hot and was stuck in long sleeves carrying a 70lbs pack and a rifle all day(and most of the night). Texas is considered arctic when you are over there.;)
And that was 90 degrees only because of the AC units cranking, the regular shop temp right now this morning(1100hrs.) is 108degree, love that southern exposure in the winter, but 12' high windows running the length of my shop has turned it into a pressure cooker(shop temp at 0900hrs was 104 degrees). I have a feeling that the temperature will force me to leave early today to go to the Gathering of the Vibes music festival....LOL:D

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Guys;
I have been watching the development of this thread and am fascinated by the diversity of information and opinions being shared. Martin-love your list of variables and could probably add a few more. Chuck-confirmed by long term belief that the Mercury laser will run at whatever speed it needs to do the job above 10% speed and really depends on the complexity of curves in the design-smoothing a curve by eliminating nodes helps speed things up. Craig- I award you one star for starting what you percieved to be a noble quest, but have to then take it away because your anxiety over the constructive criticism being voiced by your fellow citizens. Michael- just to insure that you are not being ignored, I took you up on your challenge and ran the test on a 60 watt Laserpro Mercury. It is a 2004 unit with the original 60 watt Synrad Firestar tube (probably a bit tired) and speced at 42 ips max speed. The test took 33 secs using a piece of 3mm baltic birch I got from you about 3 years ago (don't use much of the stuff) running at 3.3% speed and 98% power-maybe could have run faster and still cut thru, but enough is enough.
Allow me to philosophize a bit. In retrospect, I sense that, over the last several years, there is a growing segment of the SMC population that desires a cookbook approach to laser engraving-notice the number of threads starting with "what settings do you use for engraving salt-cured goathide,etc". Quite frankly, it ain't gonna happen, Charley-many too many variables in the whole process and has been pointed out by many more smarter than I. This cookbook trend, I believe, comes from the growing ability of a much larger segment of the population having access to laser equipment and the prevalent plug-and-play mentality that generally exists-turn it on and press a button has replaced the "lets see what this thing can do" attitude of the pioneer laser users.
Enough ramblings- the bottom line is as Rodne said- so now that you have the information, what are you going to do with it? I admit to pouting a bit that Michaels Trotec ran faster than my Mercury, but eventually I'll get over it as well as the fact that I ruined a perfectly good piece of Baltic Birch. Cheers!
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Mike Null]

Yeah, but as I recall you have a new toy on the way.

[George M. Perzel]

Mike;
I do indeed, ship carrying new toy is approaching Panama Canal after going thru Hurricane Dora-assuming it is still afloat!
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Michael- just to insure that you are not being ignored, I took you up on your challenge and ran the test on a 60 watt Laserpro Mercury. It is a 2004 unit with the original 60 watt Synrad Firestar tube (probably a bit tired) and speced at 42 ips max speed. The test took 33 secs using a piece of 3mm baltic birch I got from you about 3 years ago (don't use much of the stuff) running at 3.3% speed and 98% power-maybe could have run faster and still cut thru, but enough is enough.
**See reply below**

I admit to pouting a bit that Michaels Trotec ran faster than my Mercury, but eventually I'll get over it as well as the fact that I ruined a perfectly good piece of Baltic Birch. Cheers!
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

Hey George,
Hope all is well up there where it is 3 degrees cooler:cool:.

We should all be fairly equal on time if the power is close. As far as I have been told, the 42IPS is mainly for engraving. When cutting a vector the machine can only travel so fast before it either makes a circle look like an egg or the main setting, for maximum allowed speed, has been reached.

George I hope the pout was only for a millisecond. It was only 5 seconds:D faster but i bet that your 3mm is probably about .113-.117" thick. So if it's any consolation, This year's batch has been running about .123 -.126 so it does take a little more power to get all the way through.

I agree 100% about the plug and play mentality that many have. I continue to experiment regularly to see how close I can get to the edge. I do like this forum to get some settings that may be close or at least a starting point, on new materials, but will always try to push the envelope as far as I can. In the CNC router world, if you haven't broken a router bit from pushing it, while maintaining edge quality you will never realize your maximum capability. Thank God we we don't have to break any bits in the laser world. Just burn up a lot of scrap or end up making more scrap.

You should still have at least 3/4 "a perfectly good piece of Baltic Birch"sheet that you got from me.

So what's the new toy your getting, if you don't mind saying? Will it make my time look slow?:eek:

Thanks for sharing and ...

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Michael;
Stopped pouting about 5 minutes ago-all is well again in the world-I wish.
New toy is a Shenhui laser with a 35x47 inch bed and twin 80watt RECI tubes-should arrive here about 5 August after a long trip from Qingdao, China in a container aboard the NYK Meteor.
I have followed the path blazed by Rodne and grateful to him for his trailblazing efforts and constant flow of information. We both agree that this is not a plug and play venture and not for everyone but you only go around once so why not play close to the edge, especially considering the economic and technical benefits-will keep you all posted. Suspect your time will go down the tubes very soon.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts