Shoddy work on the construction site.

[Mike Schuch]

Today I was at my Girl friends rental house, a 70's double wide, that her previous tenant completely trashed. I won't go into the cat and dog urine details... I was there to fix the damage to the floor under the bathroom wall where the shower valve had leaked. After a few days of tearing out the walls and tearing up the floor I finally got to the point that I could switch my cordless drill to Forwards and start driving some screws back in.

The first step was putting some blocking between the joists to support the joints between the new 19/32" ($#@<*!) plywood and the remainder of the sound 5/8" particle board. Easy enough, cut some 10 1/4" lengths of 2x4's to go between the 12" on center joists. No problem except for the last joist that had a piece of REAL 5/8" plywood sub-floor (under the particle board sub flooring) hanging out 2" into the joist cavity. I would simply have to notch the 2x4 5/8" down and 2" wide. I had brought my 12" miter (That I just upgraded from a 10" that wasn't up to cutting the full width of the laminate we are going to install), worm drive skill and cordless sawzall. Hmmm.... how do I cut a notch out of the end of a 2x4 to go under the plywood with these tools? I have only done this a million times before with my 1948 16" 7.5hp Redstar radial arm saw to make half lap joints. I would either replace the fence with the half fence and swing the blade to horizontal to make the end grain cut or be lazy and set the proper blade height and nibble away at the cut with many successive strokes if I was feeling too lazy to put the half fence in. Ok, first cut with a skill... uhh, now what. Ok a few more and a crappy finish with a chisel making for a poor fitting lap... arrg I HATE shoddy workmanship!!!! No one would ever see it but it will always bother me knowing it is there and that I put in a lousy fitting joint instead of doing a quality job.

Then it came time to start reconstructing the wall. OK, stack of 2x4's but the %($)#@ walls had 3" studs!!!!! So I make the 25 minute drive home to rip a bunch of 2x4's on my Powermatic cabinet saw then 25 minute drive back... %$(@#!

Now if I had a Radial arm saw instead of a stupid 12" Dewalt miter saw neither of these operations would have been a problem and I could have accomplished them without thinking. I have ripped thousands of boards on a RAS when I was growing up as a 10" Delta turret arm RAS was the only power saw my father had... and the only saw we ever needed! Yes, I prefer ripping on a table saw but a RAS will accomplish the job safely if the operator knows what they are doing.

My 3 phase 16" Redstar behemoth came on a nice original 1948 trailer. What good a portable 3 phase saw on a trailer is I have always wondered? But I will be mounting the next 110V 10" Delta or Dewalt RAS I find for a decent price on CL to that trailer so I can have a Real saw on a work site and not have to worry about completing simple operations. Yes, ALWAYS lower the motor to rest on the table before transporting the saw!!!!

I look at the lousy build quality I find in my own late 80's house and I think how much better it could have been put together if the construction workers had and knew how to use the proper tools. For example: When I tore the carpet off my squeaky stairs I found not a single straight line on any of the risers. Every one of the fricken risers was cut by hand with a stupid skill saw and every tread had at most two contact points with the riser to support the tread... no wonder they squeaked! I tore out the entire staircase and started over with treads and risers cut on my cabinet saw. If I had been building my house I would have had a RAS and the risers would have been straight to begin with. This, of course, is just one example of shoddy workmanship out of the hundred or so I have uncovered.

For me a radial arm saw is a necessity for any quality wood working or any construction site where I wish to do a quality job.

[Kevin Stricker]

Well first off your GF's trailer was built in a factory, so you can't say it was lack of tooling that was the reason for the workmanship. It's because it's a trailer. Second, must contractors have worksite tablesaws especially stair guys so a RAS would hardly have helped. Poor workmanship is rarely due to lack of skill in homebuilding ( except for DIY specials we see now days). It is mostly due to guys trying to make a buck by doing things quickly.

As a homeowner yourself would you be willing to pay 2x standard price for a home repair to the guy who took his time and did the job right? Or would you go with the second lowest bidder? It's easy to complain about people doing poor work, but I think the problem is that most of the American public want Nordstroms quality at Wallmart prices. Of course the quality of the end product is going to suffer....maybe we should start importing modular housing from China too.

[Terry Beadle]

"...It is mostly due to guys trying to make a buck by doing things quickly." So true.

I have a hunting buddy who is a inspector. He never runs out of stories of what he finds. Missing insulation, HVAC componets mounted backwards, and the list goes on and on.

There doesn't seem to be any training or apprenticeship concept in the trades any more that is worth while. Mostly lip service and the results are plain to see.

Another thing is consumers that have no willingness to learn enough to recognize poor workmanship.

Gee....where'd I put those soured grapes? Hoot!

[John TenEyck]

You guys are right about the average consumer not be willing to pay for quality. I see it in almost every new house that goes up. It's all about curb appeal. Brick on the front, but vinyl siding on the sides and back, no windows on one side, etc. I've seen glass block windows installed by the masons with regular brick mortar. I built a curved balcony railing system for a former colleague a couple of years ago. I didn't want to do the installation, just build the components. He said fine, he'd have the trim carpenters install it. The day I delivered all the parts the trim carpenters were installing the interior door and window trim. I don't know how these guys stay in business - it was just awful. Corners didn't meet properly, joints weren't flush, there was no problem that couldn't be solved with a couple of extra nails, on and on. I looked at there work, walked over to my colleague and told him I wanted to do the installation after all, regardless of the money. He said fine, but he only had $700 in his budget for it. It took me 63 hours to do it, so I was working for gas money since it was 44 miles one way, but that balcony railing system is the highlight of his house, to be sure. But there you have it. $700 will not get you a quality job for the skill required to do that kind of work.

[jared herbert]

My daughter recently bought a brand new town house in Sioux Falls SD. It was in the winter time, January to be exact, a lot of snow on the ground. She bought a second floor unit. The house was supposed to have had a walk through inspection done by the realtor and the contractor. She moved in and when it got to be june, she turned on the air conditioner. IT didnt work. Turns out that the compressor that was supposed to be located in the back of the house had never been installed. It was not there, just missing. I guess the snow was too deep for the inspectors to walk around back. A couple of phone calls solved the problem but you have to wonder about people. As far as the problems mentioned by Mike in the first comment in this thread, If it had wheels on it it is called a trailer. I owned one for a short while. They are a piece of junk when they are rolled out of the factory door and start deteriorating immediately. Jared

[Gary Hodgin]

Most homeowners don't know as much about construction as you guys. When the typical homeowners decides to build a porch or add on the his house there exists what economists refer to as asymmetric information, one party to a transaction has more information about the nature of the transaction than the other party. In this case, the builder knows more than the homeowner.
Someone takes bids on the project, one bid is $3000, the other is $4000. Unless the homeowner knows something about materials and so forth what's the guy suppose to do? Accept the highest bid because he thinks the quality will be better, or accept the lowest bid because he thinks he's getting a deal.

There are ways to try to reduce the asymmetries but none are without cost. It's just the nature of the transaction. I try to get some references but sometimes I don't know anyone to get them from or I try to research the project. That works sometimes, but at other times the stuff is just too complicated to make easy sense out of.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Sadly.....price alone doesn't guarrantee quality work. I've seen some work that was expensive and the quality lacked. Our world had evolved and a fast buck has become the goal. Get it and get on to the next one.

What little I hire out, I seldom go with the low bid. It's been my experience that will get low quality but that isn't always the case. I just got bids on reroofing my house. One guy came in $2000 higher than the low bid. The middle bid was $500 above the low bid and then there was the low bid. The mid-priced bid was a former coworker of my wife's and right on the contract/bid he has a statement wanting no liability for anything and a requirement that the homeowner carry liability insurance in the event one of his workers is injured. HUH? Isn't that what the employer is supposed to do? I ended up going with the low bid because the contractor was very easy open to minor suggestions. I was here to watchover the work, assisted when I could ( manufactured some facia from cedar that I purchased ) and he did a good job.

My neighbor got a bid from a 4th party and it was more than double what I paid. She came over and asked the contractor working on my house for a bid.

In almost everything today, it's buyer beware....be educated and be present!

[Greg Portland]

He said fine, he'd have the trim carpenters install it. The day I delivered all the parts the trim carpenters were installing the interior door and window trim. I don't know how these guys stay in business - it was just awful. Corners didn't meet properly, joints weren't flush, there was no problem that couldn't be solved with a couple of extra nails, on and on.They stay in business because 95% of the people out there can not recognize quality work. If they receive complaints about a particular crew's quality then they have 1-2 skilled guys who can go in and fix the problems or cover them up. You can get 3 minimum wage guys working for the price of 1 expert so even if you're redoing 10% of the work you're ahead on profit.

[John Spitters]

First off my home is only 12 yrs old. As of lately I've been doing some cosmetic remodelling in my home, primarily ripping out all of the skimpy trim and installing new trim which is much heavier in scale as well as of course done in my shop. What I found when I removed the trim from around the doors was that not a shim was used anywhere in the installation of interior or exterior doors. They had simply held the door in place and shot 2 1/4" finish nails into the jambs, it's no wonder that every door in the house reverberated whenever you shut a door. As for around the windows nowhere in any of the gaps surounding the windows from the rough opening could you find a speck of insulation. Just plain fast and shoddy workmanship, with no care for the product being passed on to the consumer.
Now apparently the builder of this home "has a good reputation" Well I guess that's because he builds homes that " look nice".

John

[Gary Hodgin]

In almost everything today, it's buyer beware....be educated and be present!

+1, I try to drop by and try to look like I know something about the job even when I don't. Had to be careful about questions and comments though. About 25 years ago when our house was under construction, I noticed the floor boards on the deck where spaced wide enough apart that a decent sized foot could just about make it in between them. The builder went back and corrected it, but I knew that wasn't a good sign. Deck was rickety in just a few years and we eventually replaced it with a screened in porch. Found a good builder for that.

[Larry Edgerton]

Great!

Another contractor bashing thread.........

Larry Edgerton
Crooked Tree Joinery

[Mike Henderson]

I don't know if it's the area, but I've had good experiences with contractors. The last guy I worked with was good and had good subs working for him. In talking with him, he told me that he was given some good advice when he first started contracting - "Show up on time, do good work, and clean up". He did all three.

Mike

[David Larsen]

In response to the OP's original predicament. Buy a jobsite tablesaw. Then go out and buy a Milwaukee 12 inch scms. The portable jobsite tablesaw will rip your 2 x material. The 12 inch Milwaukee SCMS has a height stop that will let you use it like a RAS. That can help with your notching. The reason I bring up these two tools is because transporting a RAS for jobsite work is rediculously wasting your time (and muscles).

A mobile home factory probably employs just about anyone who walks in the door.

If you are a skilled craftsman do you apply at one of these factories? Probably not.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Great!

Another contractor bashing thread.........

Larry Edgerton
Crooked Tree Joinery

I think this is like Mozart being offended by people complaining that they don't like the music on the radio.

[johnny means]

I hear a lot of complaining about supposed shoddy craftsmanship, but I rarely hear anyone complain about their mortgage being to low. I have a builder in the family who is doing very well building immaculately built and trimmed southern style homes in the Chicago area. Herringvbone floors, multi layered crown, true custom kitchens, real wood siding and garage doors, the hole nine. But, they cost a million + for a perfectly average size home. So its not that no one can or is willing to do this work, no one is willing to pay for it.
A 70s doublewide definitely isn't something that ever commanded a premium price for premium work. Tearing up carpet from stairs tells me that the price of a master carpenters work was not included in the original stairs. Carpet is a cheap way to hide cheap stairs. I think there may be a lot of unrealistic expectations of what can be done in the average consumers price range. I assure you there are lots of contractors out there doing exceptional work for those willing to pay for it.

[John Spitters]

Trouble is we are all suckers for pretty ones, dress it up and we'll pay top dollar. But far too often what lies beneath can bite you hard, and the unscroupulous contractors just don't care just so long as they can make a buck.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, back to the OP's posting, all I've ever needed at the jobsite is my contractors TS and CMS. That and all my hand tools, routers, bisquit joiner, sanders - oy vey, the list goes on and on. But RAS? I have a nice one in my shop, and as much as I'd like it on the jobsite I can't imagine dragging it there. The other tools are just much more easily transported and do everything the RAS can do, if not always as easily. But if that's what floats your boat, go for it.

[Peter Scoma]

Sounds like the OP's distain for his own admittedly "shoddy workmanship" in reference to his lap joints could be remedied by furthering hand skills vs citing the absence of a RAS. A sharp handsaw, chisel and block plane are certainly adequate for cutting some rough lap joints.

[Curt Putnam]

Great!

Another contractor bashing thread.........

Larry Edgerton
Crooked Tree Joinery
;
Pound to fit, paint to match. (grinning)

[Mike Schuch]

Actually the 70's double wide is darn near perfect as far as straight and square goes. It is just made out of the absolute cheapest crappiest most minimally passable materials possible. The 5/8" particle board floors are perfectly straight and square... just slumping between every 12" on center joist. And the walls!!!... the straightest 1" x 3" wall studs I have every seen!!!! The walls are absolutely perfect... just don't lean on them or you will fall through the 1/8" wood pattern vinyl paneling. The stupid thing is killing me, where do you stop in fixing it up to rent again? If I had the time and money every interior wall would be removed, a layer of 3/4" ply added to the floor then the walls would be rebuilt with good old American 2x4's and Drywall!!!!

Yep, the only shoddy work in the trailer is mine... and I HATE shoddy work!!!!

I have no doubt in my mind that the best saw for me on a construction site is a solid well built radial arm saw. Mainly because I have been using a RAS for over 30 years and am very comfortable with the tool. I have no doubt that most construction workers would at the site of a RAS try to pick the whole saw up with a couple of guys and walk the spinning blade through a board making a satisfactory wavy line to imitate their trusty skill saws.

As for a contractors table saw onsite... man I wish the builders of my house had one and had someone that had an idea about how to properly use one. I very rarely see a table saw on house construction sites and when I do they don't get much use because all the young punks just "eye ball it" with their skill saws. I have no faith in contractors... if the buyer won't see it just slap it together and go to town with the nail gun until it holds together. I had a granite installer talk me into letting them install my granite slab counter tops in my kitchen. After they did one side I kicked them out and finished the job myself. The only ugly joint on the whole counter is the only one they did. Nope I won't let contractors touch my house... I have spent way too much time cleaning up their awful messes!!!!

Yep, if I had the time I could do the whole job perfectly with hand tools... but I believe a good part of craftsmanship is knowing the correct tool to use to accomplish the job accurately and efficiently! If I was building a open beam barn for fun hand tools might be the way to go... but I am not doing this for fun, I am doing it to get the double wide in shape to rent and resume mitigating the mortgage payments.

[Karl Card]

I used to sell computers and most of the time I felt sorry for the customers. The reason why is that most of them knew nothing about what made a computer work and what made it fast etc.. The bad thing is that salesmen as a group are basically just that, a story machine. It is difficult to tell someone what they dont want to hear. My best advice is to buy the absolute most that you can afford. That way six months down the road you wont be saying "Gee I wished I had gotten a little bigger etc,," This kind of relates to this thread by the fact that not everyone of us can know everything about everything. It is hard for a homeowner who is not mechanically inclined. What may come easy to us as far as wood working projects go may be greek to alot of others. Therefore the swindler has the advantage. It does help to have a network of friends.

[Tom Ewell]

Yep, if I had the time I could do the whole job perfectly with hand tools...but I believe a good part of craftsmanship is knowing the correct tool to use to accomplish the job accurately and efficiently!....... but I am not doing this for fun, I am doing it to get the double wide in shape to rent andresume mitigating the mortgage payments.

Bingo, there is a big difference between building "for fun" and getting the job done correctly while under the pressures of making a living and mitigating expenses.

Doing it correctly does not necessarily include making a perfect notch with some monster RAS in a piece of blocking to support a subfloor repair.

Setting a skill saw to depth, taking a few strokes, knocking out and paring with a chisel, as you apparently did, is one solution; one cross cut, two rip cuts, knock out and pare is another; ripping a 5/8” strip and sistering on top of the block is yet another. An experienced framer, remodeler would not have to “think about it” so much.

The primary concern is to get the repair structurally sound and reasonably tidy, it does not have to be “perfect”, it is not finish carpentry, cabinetry or furniture making.

Get a rip guide (or use a finger as aguide) for your skill saw and save the hour’s worth of totally wasted time and gas to rip a few studs or better yet, bone-up on the structure before picking up materials. Use a speed square, shootingboards and straight edges if you can’t follow a pencil or chalk line with a skill saw. Saw horses of course.

Having a shop full of machinery and woodworking tools tends to spoil folks (including myself) when it comes to on-site work, especially when remodeling/repairing some hell-hole where nothing “ain’t right”. We tend to overly depend on the precision and efficiency offered up by the shop but we can’t always drag the shop to the jobsite.

Since “proper tools” aren’t always available, we have to be creative and develop the skills to use what's on hand to get the job correctly done. That's craftsmanship.

[Stephen Olson]

I recently installed hardwood flooring and baseboards in my brother's house, which was built in 2000. I think there was only one square corner out of about three dozen I had to deal with, and not one straight section of wall anywhere. The worst was a 12 inch run that was bowed 3/8". Having worked in marble & stone and millwork finishing, I have long ago developed a healthy dislike of most framers. Ever try to install an eight foot section of 4" granite backsplash on a crooked wall? Rock don't bend!