Waterlox finish turning too dark on Sapele Veneer

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm at the final stages of a A/V cabinet made out of sapele. For the back pieces, I have veneered sapele to a 1/4" plywood substrate. All of the solid wood sapele is being finished with Waterlox.

I've been making a test piece of the veneer (also bonded to a substrate) with the Waterlox, but the wood is turning out much darker than the solid sapele, and I've only got a few coats of waterlox on it. The veneer is soaking up the Waterlox like a sponge.

How can I make sure that when I use the real veneer pieces for the back that the finish doesn't come out as dark? Should I first seal the veneer pieces with super-blond de-waxed shellac before using the Waterlox? Is there another approach to prevent the finish from getting too dark?

Here's a sample of the hardwood sapele:
202139

And a sample of the veneer:
202140

[Conrad Fiore]

Alan,
Did you slice the veneer from the stock you are using, or is it something you bought? The solid looks like ribbon and the veneer looks like it is figured. If you take mineral spirits and wipe on both, are they the same color, or is there a difference like with Waterlox? If the veneer is a different color to start, you will have a difficult time matching whatever you do.

[Scott Holmes]

Waterlox is a phenolic resin varnish. The darkest of the resins used to make varnish. The lightest colored resin is alkyd with urethane in between colorwise. Conrad's idea will let you see what it will look like with an alkyd resin. Anothe r option is a water-borne finish which imparts almost no color.

[Alan Lightstone]

It's purchased veneer. Wiping mineral spirits on it, the veneer is darker than the sapele stock, though not as much as with the Waterlox. I'll try a test piece with water-borne finish also.

What are some name brands of Alkyd resins / alkyd resin-oil combinations?

[Chris Fournier]

This is a common finishing problem. Oil based finishes are usually the worst culprits when it comes to this problem. I would highly suggest spraying a lacquer rather than oil on this project if you want a finish that doesn't impart too much character to the wood.

[Scott Holmes]

Easiest Alkyd resin varnish to find is Sherwin Williams Classic fast dry oil varnish; at the SW paint stores not the big box stores. Another great one is Pratt & Lambert #38; it's getting more difficult to find. It Alkyd and soya oil so it's light in color than the SW alkyd/linseed oil.

the water-borne is still the lightest color shift.

[Prashun Patel]

You've got two things going on:

1) Waterlox is at the dark end of the varnish spectrum. So, it will always impart a dark amber color right off the bat.

2) To me, the real 'problem' appears to be blotch/figure absorption. That's what's causing it to appear almost black in parts.

You might try applying superblonde or white shellac first. This will mitigate much of the blotch and leave you only with the waterlox color to contend with. If you do this, apply to all the pieces - not just the veneer.

Also, be aware that Waterlox Original Sealer is darker than the concentrated Waterlox varnish products.

Last - and this is heresy around here - consider using an oil based polyurethane. It's much lighter than many of the phenolic or alkyd varnishes out there (although I've heard good things about but have not tried Pratt & Lambert 38, an alkyd). When built up, polys DO tend to take on a plasticky look, but when the film is thinner, I find the look good.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've not noticed the Waterlox Original Sealer to be darker than the Gloss one on my sample pieces of Sapele. Interesting.

I need to pick up some alkyd varnish and try it out. If I can ever get out of work today, I found the only Pratt & Lambert dealer for miles.

So far, the sample with just Super Blonde shellac looks the closest. I'd prefer a little more protection, though...

I tried some Minwax brushing Polyurethane. Not impressed.

[Neal Clayton]

you can put your varnish of choice over the shellac if you like. that's i've always started with a coat or two of clear shellac no matter what the final finish will be. eliminating surprises is a good thing.

[Prashun Patel]

"I tried some Minwax brushing Polyurethane. Not impressed."

I know, many people hate it. I apply it thinned, and wiped on. I love it. Not as much as Waterlox, but I find it easy to apply.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've sprayed a few coats of Zinsser Dewaxed shellac on one panel. Color looks pretty good. Do I need to put a coat of something else on top of the dewaxed shellac, or is it OK on its own? Since this will be a low wear surface, I'm wondering if the dewaxed shellac can stand on its own.

I was thinking of either Pratt & Lambert 38 or General Finishes High Performance Polyurethane Water-Based Top Coat

[Scott Holmes]

Poly is more amber in color than the alkyd resin varnishes. I suggest you call the P&L distributor to see if they have the #38 varnish. My normal place doesn't stock it anymore but the wil order it for me.

The Sherwin Williams Classic Oil varnish is available at the SW paint stores; much lighter in color than poly.

[Alan Lightstone]

I'll make some calls tomorrow. Still unclear if the dewaxed shellac can stand on its own as a final coat.

[Harvey Pascoe]

I just examined Alan's pictures more closely and I think his problem is that the veneered piece is quilted sapele of which I have been using some recently and it is quite dark. And no, it does not bleach well. Sapele is highly variable in both grain and color. I"ve got boards that are dark brown with black lines running through it, while others are almost blonde and variagated with ribbon striping like his upper picture.

I don't think he's going to solve his problem with finishes, he's got two types of sapele there. As to why he has that vertical banding, that is a mystery to me. Here is what he has.

[Prashun Patel]

Alan-
You can certainly use shellac as the final topcoat. It's actually quite durable for occasional use surfaces. A shellacked surface is relatively easy to repair. I finished a side table with it about 3 years ago and have stored a potted plant on it for the entire time. It's gotten white rings from the pot on occasion. They rub right out with a little DNA or (worst case) a quick polish of thin shellac.

If you determine that you have had to repair the finish one too many times, you can always use a varnish or lacquer at that point.

[Alan Lightstone]

I just examined Alan's pictures more closely and I think his problem is that the veneered piece is quilted sapele of which I have been using some recently and it is quite dark. And no, it does not bleach well. Sapele is highly variable in both grain and color. I"ve got boards that are dark brown with black lines running through it, while others are almost blonde and variagated with ribbon striping like his upper picture.

I don't think he's going to solve his problem with finishes, he's got two types of sapele there. As to why he has that vertical banding, that is a mystery to me. Here is what he has.
Wasn't supposed to be quilted, but that's how it's turned out.

Fortunately, this will go in the interior of the cabinet, probably blocked by DVDs, video games, components, etc... so it will hide well. But I'm learning, especially how to finish properly, and would love to get the best match possible.

What I probably should have done was to make my own veneer with my bandsaw. Never tried that before, and will probably experiment after. I bet that would be a perfect match.

[Alan Lightstone]

Well, my local Pratt and Lambert dealer can order it for me when they send in their next order. That should be next month.

I don't think so.....

Looks like my Sherwin Williams dealer will get a call.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Its pretty tough to veneer a large area with shop saw veneers and you'd have to have a good size vacuum press. Shop saw veneers are more like a lamination than a 1/40" veneer. They are not flexible and irregularities in the saw cut do not conform. Try consistently sawing a 3/32 veneer and see how well you do.