PDA

View Full Version : Vise Question



Frank Carnevale
07-17-2011, 8:55 AM
Hi Guys and Gals. So I am going to start building my bench soon and 99% of what I do is done with hand tools. Planing, dovetailing, etc. So, silly thinking, I love the "look" of the Benchcrafted leg vise but was wondering if mostly everything is done with hand tools, something along the lines of the Veritas twin screw vise is a better idea right? First "real" bench I am building and the plan is the last :) Would lik eto get it "right" the first time. I am sure my ways of working will change in the future but want to get it as "right" as I can

Terry Beadle
07-17-2011, 11:22 AM
The Veritas twin is quite a bit wider in clamp area vs the Benchcrafted. So which is a better idea? That depends on how you work and what you work on. The twin would be good for larger carcass pieces but the Benchcrafted would be better for smaller pieces. I say that because bigger usually means more effort is required to manage the work piece. However, the robo side pinning and Benchcrafted vice will handle either very easily. This is an issue of how you like to work and what you work on because if you do a lot of hand work, you will probably not want to have to deal with the wider jaw of the twin IMO.

We are talking a nuance of difference here. Both will do very good work and allow you to focus on the part and not the holding system.

If it was me, the Benchcrafted would get the nod because most pieces I deal with are 3 feet in length or less. YMMV

Don Dorn
07-17-2011, 11:25 AM
I'm sure there will be those that disagree, but if I build another bench, I'm going to skip the leg vise and go with either a twin screw or a Hovarter on the front. My leg vise works, but doesn't give me what I need to do dovetailing with it. It's very hard to get it parallel enough that vibration of the piece isn't a bit of an issue regardless of how it's set. It works fine for for edge work, but I'm going to make a dovetail vise for the benchtop to get around that hiccup.

Jim Koepke
07-17-2011, 2:00 PM
This question has been given a lot of thought along the journey of my bench build.

A leg vise has some very good points and a few detracting shortcomings.

The solution currently tumbling in my mind is a combination. The vises from my current bench will likely be used even though they are nothing special.

The difference will be that I plan to be able to add a leg vise in the future without having to remove the face vise.

Another plan is to have tapped holes along the apron to accept a double screw vise with wood screws. These holes will also allow the use of other holding devices.

jtk

Mike Brady
07-18-2011, 10:05 AM
The leg-vise craze that grew out of the Roubo bench craze was over-sold in my opinion, particularly if low-cost hardware was used. While the leg vise is quaint, only Bench-Crafted got it right by producing a beautifully robust product. As good at their gear is, the leg vise is still an already narrow chop that is bisected by a screw; and the required moveable pin is literally a pain for aging users. Its use almost dictates the need for a sliding dead man and a Moxon auxiliary vise if you do any dovetailing or work on larger panels.

There are three twin-screw vises that are worthy of consideration: Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, and Hovarter. The first two are somewhat tricky to install, but are proven products. The Hovarter has only a lack of experience standing in the way of it being called brilliant. If you go with a twin-screw vise with at least 18" between the screws you will never be sorry, unless perhaps you only make doors for a living, and need the full length of a long bench regularly.

Don't forget to give much consideration to what type of end vise you will want. This is probably a tougher decision than choosing your front vise and at least as important.

john brenton
07-18-2011, 10:34 AM
I finished most of my bench about a week or so ago, and I went with a Holtzapffel style twin screw using the $40 tail-vise screws from Lee Valley. The jaw is a total of 30", with a 24" spread on the screws. IT IS AWESOME!!! It is super strong and incredibly versatile for end grain work and edge work. I am really glad I went with it. Nothing else made sense for everything I do, and this fulfills all my needs.

The only thing that would make the bench better would be the quick release vise on the tail end, and I'll probably do that eventually.

John Coloccia
07-18-2011, 10:50 AM
Were I to do it again, I would have a tail vice and a shoulder vice. Personally, I detest the leg vice in all it's various forms. I see it as a clunky solution to a problem that doesn't exist. That's just my opinion, though. There are so enough options that all of us can be made happy, even if you want that leg vice :D

I really miss having a tail vice, though, and I think a shoulder vice is a lot more useful than my regular face vice. I hate having all that mechanism in the way of trying to clamp a stupid piece of wood.

john brenton
07-18-2011, 11:33 AM
Well, it's a good thing that leg vises aren't a permanent fixture. The leg vise never made any sense to me for a cabinet maker's bench, although it would be nice to have a raised one for holding work for shaping or carving like on the Vandal bench in the Landis book.

The twin screw vise is the way to go, IMHO. I just have to install the tool tray and I'll be done with my bench and post some pics. It's so awesome I might even make a video.


Were I to do it again, I would have a tail vice and a shoulder vice. Personally, I detest the leg vice in all it's various forms. I see it as a clunky solution to a problem that doesn't exist. That's just my opinion, though. There are so enough options that all of us can be made happy, even if you want that leg vice :D

I really miss having a tail vice, though, and I think a shoulder vice is a lot more useful than my regular face vice. I hate having all that mechanism in the way of trying to clamp a stupid piece of wood.

Pam Niedermayer
07-18-2011, 11:35 AM
I think a shoulder vise combined with a sliding deadman would be the bee's knees. But then I also like the idea of a croquet with sliding deadman, as well as a tail vise of some sort. Or maybe take the Japanese approach and have no vises at all. :)

Pam

john brenton
07-18-2011, 12:00 PM
I went from a board with pegs in and clamps with no comfortable way to do edge or end work to the Holtzappfel, so maybe I'm being unfair in my praises, but thus far I can't find any fault in it. I ran a drawer sized piece ( 3"x 12" x 1/2"- ish) through the passes (sawing, planing, joinery cuts etc), and ran a large piece of rough cut lumber (8/4 x 8" x 7') through it's passes, and the bench left me wanting for nothing. End work of course is obviously covered, but when it comes to edge work the outside of the chop (outside of the vise screw, that is) is strong enough to hold the work on its edge even without the holdfasts on the far leg, but with that holdfast it's unmovable.

If the piece is too short to reach the far leg for clamping, even with the 8' bench, which is longer than the common holtzappfle style, it still works out. The outside jaw can STILL hold it tightly, or you can drop it in the full length of the vise (avoiding the oily threads, that is). The top of the screws are about 5" down from the top of the bench, so it still keeps the edge low.

I was going to go with a sliding deadman or a bench slave, but I'm glad I built it without putting all the accessories on that I had in my mind. I envisioned the "bench-o-matic" with all these different fixtures, but I've found that they aren't necessary with this design.


I think a shoulder vise combined with a sliding deadman would be the bee's knees. But then I also like the idea of a croquet with sliding deadman, as well as a tail vise of some sort. Or maybe take the Japanese approach and have no vises at all. :)

Pam

Chuck Nickerson
07-18-2011, 1:09 PM
I built the Benchcrafted split top with the leg vise. The leg vise handles everything well except dovetailing.

So I built the Moxon, 26" between screws. It's beautiful for dovetailing, removable, and elevates the work.

Seems the best of all worlds.

Jerome Hanby
07-18-2011, 2:17 PM
Yea!!! I thought I was the only one on the planet thinking of putting a shoulder vise on a new bench!


Were I to do it again, I would have a tail vice and a shoulder vice. Personally, I detest the leg vice in all it's various forms. I see it as a clunky solution to a problem that doesn't exist. That's just my opinion, though. There are so enough options that all of us can be made happy, even if you want that leg vice :D

I really miss having a tail vice, though, and I think a shoulder vice is a lot more useful than my regular face vice. I hate having all that mechanism in the way of trying to clamp a stupid piece of wood.

Zahid Naqvi
07-18-2011, 3:30 PM
I think the leg vise is like the Stanley #6 Jack plane, which can do almost everything any other plane can do but is a step below in ease of use compared to a dedicated plane. The leg vise is the same way. It is not the best vise for dovetailing, but setup properly it can do it quiet well. But it can also handle wide panels and long boards equally easily. A twin screw vise and shoulder vise are dedicated tools which do a handful of things very well but don't have as much flexibility. I think the decision should depend on what kind of work you do, something I have never been able to define. The good thing about the benchcrafted hardware is that if down the line you decide the leg vise is not something you like, you can take the whole thing off and sell the hardware for a very reasonable price.
Chuck's solution is something I will end up doing soon, so keep that in mind as a future upgrade if you do a lot of dovetails.
As most people will tell you the first bench is always the beginning which allows you to determine what your final bench should look like.

Adam Cherubini
07-18-2011, 5:11 PM
Personally, I detest the leg vice in all it's various forms. I see it as a clunky solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

John, it's a workbench, not your prom date! The leg vise is FAR superior to just about all others in speed, simplicity, strength, and stiffness. It's a simple lever and a "thumpin good'n" (Hagrid quote!) As Zahid said, it does it all, something few other vises can say. Okay, maybe it's not sexy. But hey, it works!

My bench has provisions for both leg vise and twin screw. I think the best twin screws are "garterless" with loose jaws (chops) made with LARGE wooden screws. These screws are now available commercially making this sort of vise exceedingly easy to integrate. The advantages over the commercial mechanism are almost too numerous to list.

As my current favorite bench is my Nicholson, I often find a hold fast and a couple pegs are sufficient for edge work so i don't use my leg vise very often. Most often I have NO vise installed. When I need to do DTs, that's usually a reasonable commitment of time, so a few minutes screwing in a couple wooden screws is no problem. Point here is don't overlook the advantage of having no vise. It's nice to have a big flat surface occasionally.

Lastly (insert tail vise rant and skip net two parapgraphs) I know everybody's heard me say it before, but tail vises get in the way of precision (bench hook) saw cuts. As I don't believe they are particularly effective for pinching boards for planing (they are good for other stuff, I admit) I can't justify their existence. So think thru the tail vise long and hard. How and where will you saw a tenon's shoulders? Cut a molding to length? Saw off a board? Most people use machines for these ops so their tail vises don't annoy them. I can't stand mine (it's on my German style bench).

I sometimes find I must plane 90 degrees to the grain. In this case, the tail vise design is holding the board thru friction. That's just never a practical solution in a woodshop. If you are going to plane a board (or clamp one in a vise) you need something STIFF backing it up.

Adam

Frank Drew
07-18-2011, 6:22 PM
Were I to do it again, I would have a tail vise and a shoulder vise.

My preference, too. I particularly like having the vise feature plus bench dog use of a tail vise, versus the much more limited capability of a wagon vise, no matter how sexy they look. And you can hold a simple shop-made board jack in a tail vise when needed for long work held at one end by the shoulder vise, and get it out of your way when not; I like under bench storage drawers and a sliding deadman, even though a hot lick, would be in the way some of the time.


The leg-vise craze that grew out of the Roubo bench craze was over-sold in my opinion.

I agree. Just my opinion, of course.