Getting a handle on sharpening stones

[Archie England]

water stone users, what stones do you use for

1. Rough stones for shaping, 220-600
2. Sharpening stones, 800-1000
3. refining sharpening and initial honing, 1500-2000
4. Honing to initial polishing, 3000-5000
5. Finishing and polishing, 6000-8000
6. Final high-end polishing, 10000-15000

Please forgive the crude categories. I'm in search of a the best stones for flattening O1 blades (plus some A2). Your input is appreciated.

[Joel Goodman]

Although this is not quite an answer to your query -- I often use a DMT Diamond for rough shaping (325) if needed, the same in 1200 for sharpening (with a small microbevel) and then often go directly to a Norton 8000. Recently I picked up the 3K and 10K Sigmas that LV is selling but haven't used them enough to form an opinion. 6 stones seems like a lot of work to keep flat. I have a Norton 1K and 4K but don't use them that much. My plane irons are A2 and 01 (with some "chrome vanadium" and my chisels are 01 and "chrome vanadium". The Norton stones seem fine on the A2, as well as the other steels.

[Don Dorn]

I have two DMT diasharp plates that serve me well. The 600 gives me a very quick secondary bevel and burr and the 8000 gives me a quick tertiary bevel. I've done all type of stones, but I like these because there is no soaking and they remain flat.

[Archie England]

interesting first two responses. I initially wanted to post a poll searching out how many water, oil, ceramic, and DMT users frequented our SMC forums. My impression is, initially, that most woodworkers are concerned with convenience first. Given the expense of either Shapton line, I would hesitate to suggest that water stone users are concerned first with cost.

For me, I've bought (used) a number of different mediums and have achieved sharp enough with most. Recent use of some Nortons showed me a whole new progression beyond what I was doing with Ark stones, etc.

Help me uncover what the current state of affairs is for water stone sharpening.... Thanks

Archie

[Mike Henderson]

I use a diamond plate for rough shaping, if needed. Then a 1000 stone, followed by a 4000, then an 8000.

For most sharpening, I can start with the 1000. The diamond plates also get used for flattening the water stones.

Mike

[Zach England]

I have never really thought my stones need handles. I built a bench cleat they fit on instead.

[Archie England]

I use a diamond plate for rough shaping, if needed. Then a 1000 stone, followed by a 4000, then an 8000.

For most sharpening, I can start with the 1000. The diamond plates also get used for flattening the water stones.

Mike

Hello Mike,

which brand of 1/4/8 water stones do you use--older clay, newer clay-like, or ceramic? thanks.

[Archie England]

I have never really thought my stones need handles. I built a bench cleat they fit on instead.

Cleated stones? Does that hurt? 8-)

[David Keller NC]

Archie - I use my stones very differently depending on what the job at hand is: honing a bevel, or flattening a back.

For honing a bevel, I've found that I don't need anything other than an 8000 grit stone (Norton, in my case - based on wear to date, I think it will be near the end of my woodworking career before this one wears out). But that's because I grind all straight edge tools with a hollow bevel (except for carving tools). Even with the rough nature of the grind, establishing a highly-polished mirror microbevel takes about 10 strokes on the 8000 grit stone.

For flattening a back, I use a coarse DMT diamond stone to take out any convexity on the back (it's way faster than the 220 grit carborundum I used to use), then I proceed through 1000 grit, 4000 grit and 8000 grit Norton water stones. I only need to do this once to a tool, and honestly I think someone could get by with a diamond, 1000 grit and 8000 grit sequence. I don't use my 4000 grit stone much other than back-flattening.

[Trevor Walsh]

I have 250, 1000, 4000 and 8000. I don't like using the 250 much. For a damaged or totally f***** blade I hollow grind, and work through 1K to 8K. Sharpenings between this grinding process usually only get the 4K and 8K. I also strop as needed between sharpening. I flatten stones on a 1/4" piece of glass with 120 SiC wet/dry paper. Though I want to look into lose grit on granite as a flattening technique, it would cheaper in the long run.

[Archie England]

Trevor, which brand/type of stones? thanks!

[Mike Henderson]

Hello Mike,

which brand of 1/4/8 water stones do you use--older clay, newer clay-like, or ceramic? thanks.
I have Shaptons.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

water stone users, what stones do you use for

1. Rough stones for shaping, 220-600
2. Sharpening stones, 800-1000
3. refining sharpening and initial honing, 1500-2000
4. Honing to initial polishing, 3000-5000
5. Finishing and polishing, 6000-8000
6. Final high-end polishing, 10000-15000

Please forgive the crude categories. I'm in search of a the best stones for flattening O1 blades (plus some A2). Your input is appreciated.

Hi Archie

The answer does not lie in having stones for each of these categories, but in looking at the method of sharpening. If you work with microbevels, then you need very few grits (basically two will get you by), as long as you have an effecient method of grinding.

Let's say you create a flat grind with a belt sander or a diamond stone (the latter is not my first choice as it will not last long grinding steel). Now the strategy would be to form a micro secondary bevel. A secondary bevel is at a higher angle to the flat primary bevel. Use a honing guide for this. A couple of strokes on a 1000 and a couple on a 8000 grit, and you are done.

Alternately, you grind a hollow primary bevel at your desired angle. The closer you grind to the edge of the bevel, the less metal to remove if you choose to freehand directly on the hollow. Or you could again form a micro secondary bevel. And again you only need a 1000 and 8000.

The mult grits are not needed for the bevel. They are better utilised on the back of the blade. But there is a better way. Just use a little diamond paste on the backs. Hardwood is a good enough substratum, and you would need 40 and 10 microns ... even just get away with 40 microns before going to the 1000 and 8000 waterstones. The diamond paste cuts very fast.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Archie England]

thanks Derek!

Now I've got yet another variable in the equation to digest.

Seriously, I'm so new to sharpening. Might I elaborate?

First, to look up the dictionary definition of "metallurgically stupid" one might see my picture as the illustration. I have blued the steel (I'll never admit how many times) on my grinder to the point that NOW I don't (as often). Grinders are quick little boogers. Actually, my problem lies in the different metals used from lathe wood turning (which is what I've got more experience with) and wood working. My HSS, M2, M4, and other powered or cryogenic treated steels just don't mind the grinder for what I need when turning. O1, however, is very sensitive to the same higher grit wheels on my 8" grinder. I have blued some these. Just makes me so mad!

Second, I'm just learning to flatten blade backs.Period! I've been shirking that task for five years, and getting pretty fair results. But when rehabbing these old wood planes and transitionals, I've encountered enough pitting and non-flat blade backs to decide it's time to pay my dues here. I had bought a used set of Norton stones but using them wasn't very intuitive. Until a friend showed me how (yeah, it is simple--Doh), I never used them. So I've picked up a used assortment of DMTs, Crystolon, Ark stones, and Norton India stones; they work, too. However, once I discovered how to use the Nortons I likewise learned how to free hand sharpen--and I'm loving it. (I don't blue steel this way). Perhaps one day I'll develop a softer touch on the grinder and set those 8" hollows and move through only two stones. But until then, I'll use my Tormek to set bevels and stones of some sort to flatten backs. I like the DMTs, I just don't own any that are above the fine grit. I like Ark stones (much more than the Norton India stone (but it works great, as well)), too. I despise the Norton 220 water stone but like and enjoy the 1/4/8s. The 1000 seems to cut slow, though. Hence, I'm now searching for "that better water stone experience."

Third, someone please inform me of where to find a tutorial on using diamond paste for flattening blade backs. I've got more research to do.

Again, thanks Derek. BTW, love your talented accomplishments.

[Tri Hoang]

As others mentioned, it depends on the task at hand. I use Shapton Pro 5K/10K for simple, straight forward resharpening, and right-off-the-grinder cases. I dress the Shapton 5K/10K with a 220 diamond stone before every sharpening and that seems to help them cut a little more aggressively. I guess that about 80% of my sharpening involve just these two. I use a slight secondary bevel on all of my plane irons and mortise chisels. All other chisels use a single (flat) bevel.

For getting rid of small nicks, I use a Shapton Pro 1.5K then proceed with 5K/10K. For flattening the face of plane irons/chisels, I start with a diamond 220, Bester 500/1200, then Shapton Pro 1.5K/5K/10K. The Bester stones are faster cutting, larger, thicker, and have nicer cutting action than the Shapton Pro. However they require soaking (10-15 minutes).

You can get by with just two stones but it saves time to have a few more around. For me, sharpening efficiency is important because I'd be more likely to stop and sharpen tools as needed.

[Archie England]

Just got a pm that bears posting here---

from OBG...

1. Rough stones for shaping, 220-600 - Sigma Pro (SP) #120, SP Select II #240, Naniwa Chosera #400, SP 3F Carbon #700

2. Sharpening stones, 800-1000 - SP 1K, Arashiyama 1K

3. refining sharpening and initial honing, 1500-2000 - None

4. Honing to initial polishing, 3000-5000 - Suehiro Rika 5K

5. Finishing and polishing, 6000-8000 - SP 6k, SP Select II 6K, SP 8K

6. Final high-end polishing, 10000-15000 - SP 10K, SP 13K, Japanese natural stone (~20K-30K)

Atoma #400 Diamond & 8" & 10" DMT C/X-C for flattening the Sigmas and a Atoma #600 Diamond for the natural stone.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_462_464

All stones except the Arashiyama and the Chosera were bought from Stu Tierny (Schtoo).

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404

The Chosera and Arashiyama were bought at Chef Knives To Go.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shglkachst.html

HTH

Orlando

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As silly as it sounds, when I don't have access to a grinder (I have to drive to my fathers to use one, I don't have one yet) I do a lot of my coarse grinding on one of those cheap Norton combination oil stones from the hardware store. It removes metal pretty quickly for regrinding a primary angle or removing nicks, at least compared to the old sandpaper method I'd used to use, and needs flattening a lot less than the waterstones I've used when doing significant work.

The only proper stones I own are the 1000/5000/8000 set of Naniwa Superstones from TFWW, and when I want to remove a lot of metal, the 1000 is still a bit slow. With a good grind off the grinder, I can often skip the 1000. I wonder if I should get a higher polishing stone than the 8000, but things are working decently for now, a whole lot better (and cheaper at this point) than the scary sharp method did.

[Archie England]

The process (or what I designate as, "system") you describe is exactly what (I think) I'm after. What you describe fits my personality. Many thanks.

[Gordon Eyre]

I have Norton water stones in the following grits: 325, 1000, 4000, 8000. The 325 is only used for blades or chisels that are in poor shape and/or have a nick. My next purchase will be a 600 grit DMT diamond plate that I can use to keep my stones flat and for other sharpening purposes.

[Archie England]

Just how badly will the older King/clay stones dish and wear? Are they that muddy and messy? And, do they provide that much less sharp or finished edge than the ceramic stones. Newer ceramics look quite expensive. So, what's the effective gain for cost evaluation?

thanks again,

Archie

[Archie England]

I have Norton water stones in the following grits: 325, 1000, 4000, 8000. The 325 is only used for blades or chisels that are in poor shape and/or have a nick. My next purchase will be a 600 grit DMT diamond plate that I can use to keep my stones flat and for other sharpening purposes.

I've just bought the DMT coarse/x-coarse stone for flattening purposes, as well. Many thanks for your reply.

Though I love the 4000/8000 stone (it's true jewel), I despise the 220/1000 stone--well, really the 220 side. The mess is everywhere when I flatten either of these lower grits, and I don't get as quick results with the 1000 as I do with the DMT fine. That's merely a 700 grit norton compared to a 600 grit DMT and the DMT flat out performs the Norton (IMO).


I've ordered a Bester 1000 to see how that works; but, I'm so green and uncertain about how to move forward with water stones that I'm just hesitant.

Anybody have experience with the Bester, Sigma, or Arashiyama 1000 stones?

[John Coloccia]

I use a diamond plate for rough shaping, if needed. Then a 1000 stone, followed by a 4000, then an 8000.

For most sharpening, I can start with the 1000. The diamond plates also get used for flattening the water stones.

Mike

Right on. Often, I just skip the 4000 and go right to the 8000 unless I'm on a japanese iron. Then I sometimes hit the 4000 depending on my mood. Sometimes, I go to my shapton 16000 depending on my mood, or sometimes I skip it and just go to a strop. I have LOTS of ways to sharpen but none of them are overly complex.

I've started using my 1000 stones to flatten all my other stones. As long as I do it often, it only takes a few seconds.

I've found that the Norton stones below 1000 wear so quickly as to almost be useless, but this is just how they work for me. They work for others well...not me, though.

[Gary Hodgin]

Depending on the condition, I start with 10" DMT duosharp extra course/course stone, then through a progression of 1000, 4000, and 8000 Norton's. That's for flattening. I use the DMT to flatten the stones.

For the bevel side, depending on condition, I go with a Tormek and/or 8" slow speed grinder (only for things like significant knicks), then proceed through the Norton stones. In addition, I'll sometimes use a Shapton 12000 or a leather strop with green compound.

Lately for bench chisels, I use my Worksharp 3000. I got one of those on sale last Dec. at HD and follow John's procedure in his great video on sharpening a Taylor paring chisel. Anyone thinking about getting a WS should watch the video.

The hardest steel I have is 01.

[Archie England]

thanks everyone.!!!!

I'm guessing that not many here actually use water stones.... Or once the big Kahuna's have spoken, others feel there's nothing more to say. I certainly felt that way for a long time--no one's fault but mine.

So, one last gentle nudge to you others--you know who you are--who use various assortments of water stones. I'd love to hear the stories of what you've thrown out, sold off, and put first for water stone sharpening in your small, medium, or large shop, garage, basement, house, or maybe "doghouse."

Just saying, get involved with this...if you want to...and are willing to...put up with one more round of ... sharpening:)

[Mike Henderson]

thanks everyone.!!!!

I'm guessing that not many here actually use water stones.... Or once the big Kahuna's have spoken, others feel there's nothing more to say. I certainly felt that way for a long time--no one's fault but mine...

I'm not sure what you mean. I think most people use water stones (compared to oil stones or ceramic stones). Many of us also use other things, especially when we need to take a lot of metal off (for example, grinders, diamond plates, etc.). But for getting a really good edge, I haven't found anything that works as well as water stones.

Mike

[Sean Hughto]

I'm weird. I try everything if I can afford it. So I have many grinding options. I've found that once you've learned the basics, you can get good results from any method. I love my water stones, but I love my Tormek too. Diamond plates are often useful, but so is my grinder. More and more lately, I use my oil stones because they are just a bit handier than messing with the water. No need to choose. Try it all.

[Archie England]

I'm weird. I try everything if I can afford it. So I have many grinding options. I've found that once you've learned the basics, you can get good results from any method. I love my water stones, but I love my Tormek too. Diamond plates are often useful, but so is my grinder. More and more lately, I use my oil stones because they are just a bit handier than messing with the water. No need to choose. Try it all.


been there, doing that, got the T-shirt, and now looking for those better tools that I passed up while buying the trendy ones. Don't get me wrong, I am curious and love to experiment, too. Just got to settle down. What motivates this current search comes from helping a friend: I'm giving him my used set of Norton combo water stones. Now I want better water stones. And, I've got Norton India, DMT, and Arkansas stones--which I can competently sharpen, hone, and polish with. But what I want is a faster process for flattening old plane blade backs from woodies and traditions, etc. I have the Tormek, as well as a 6" Baldor and 8" vs grinder--but these are NOT the right tools for flattening blade backs.

thanks for your encouragement and help!

Archie

[Derek Cohen]

Archie, please keepin mind that, while there are better and better sharpening mediums, these may be wasted if you do not have a sharpening philosophy. That is, that you have worked out what works efficiently for you. For example, here is mine (about to be updated): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeyondSharpASharpeningStrategy.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

For flattening the backs of plane blades or chisels, you can use a diamond plate, which works pretty fast. I bought one of the WorkSharp 3000 units when HD had them on sale and it works well for flattening the backs of tools. I do the rough flattening on the WS (or on a diamond plate) and finish on water stones.

Mike

[Archie England]

I like and agree (recently came into compliance) with your philosophy, except that I've not arrived in the ownership of BU planes. So, the "choir" agrees. As indicated above, I'm proficient with my Tormek for bevel/face grinds. The backs of my plane and chisel blades, however, have been neglected for the last four years. So, that's the driving need here--to discover a better than Norton water stones approach to flattening blade backs.

At this juncture, I'm looking for feedback on the better water stones. I heard great testimonials on Shaptons in general but few about flattening blade backs. To my remembrance, not one has chimed in about Chosera or Super Stones (yep, one did so!) or Imanishi stones or much about Sigma power and Sigma Select IIs. The knife forum folks have great engagement of these various stones, eg. Katiyama, Blue Mtn Aoto, Suehiro Rika, Arashiyama, as well as the old Kings and other pre ceramics. I don't hear that kind of voice here!

I've had a couple pm conversations with woodworkers who use 'other-than-shaptons' but for whatever reason there's no interest in this topic. That's why I wondered if few here actually used water stones. I would have suspected that quite a few used the old clay bonds, or earlier, pre-ceramic stones, and thus would be adding their voice. It's counter-intuitive to believe that a) shaptons own such market share, b) that most all here use shaptons, c) don't use water stones at all, or d) don't flatten blade backs (oops, I fit that category for four years). I guess e) is the correct answer--everyone's on vacation or not interested in another such discussion.

Please grant me a little grace here; I am talking about how well your current water stones flatten old plane and chisel blade backs. My interest has little to do with the face bevel. other than the obvious implications. If my buddy refuses my gift of the Norton stones, I'll simply buy an aggressive 1000 water stone plus a high quality finishing stone (the Norton 4000 is closer in grit microns to a 2500 grit; their 8000, closer to 5000 grit) in the 8k to 12k range. Since the Japanese mfg companies have no imposed stds over 8000 grit (read that somewhere), it appears that sharpness beyond 8000 is a crap shoot. Yes, there are greater levels of sharpness; however, finishing (removal or reduction of serrations) functionally becomes the final component of polishing--perhaps it matters not whether your replace larger scratches with ever smaller ones (shapton's process (8,15,30 IMO) and perhaps Sigma and the other hard stones) or diminished sharpening/honing replaced by smoothed, less serrations in the intersection of the two edges (King, Naniwa, and others).

So, anyone with water stones that has found this balance with your stones?

[Mike Henderson]

You can use water stones to flatten the back of plane blades and chisels. But if you're dealing with old tools, many of those have backs that take a lot of work. Other things, such as diamond plates or powered devices, just work faster. If you're dead set on using water stones for flattening the backs of tools, use a very coarse stone and make sure you keep it flat. You can flatten with wet/dry sandpaper on glass or on a diamond plate. But if you have a diamond plate, use that for flattening.

I use Shapton stones because they work well and don't have to be kept in water.

Mike

[Archie England]

thanks Mike and others,

Perhaps the truth does lie somewhere between--water stones are not the best medium for flattening ... and most of our group don't often have the need for blade back flattening--especially with the newer, quality tools.

[Kevin Lucas]

Archie,

I guess I'm sort of low tech on sharpening. A set of King a really rough one 80 or 250 (not sure), 1000, 2000, 4000 and 6000, A cheap honing guide and a tile I glue 400 and 600 sand paper on. Am I good at sharpening? not really hehe the micro bevels are a bit large. I have 2 grinders a 6 and a slow speed 8 and I'm clumsy so I have got blue spots. The Kings I only soak when I need them (sort of fun watching for the bubbles to stop). Are they messy? Sure but they work though it takes me a bit. For flattening I use sand paper on the tile to get it down to where the water stones can take over. For touch ups its 1 4 6 usually and the 1000 may be overkill. No experience with Shaptons, ceramics or diamond plates those are down the road I hope,

[Archie England]

Archie,

I guess I'm sort of low tech on sharpening. A set of King a really rough one 80 or 250 (not sure), 1000, 2000, 4000 and 6000, A cheap honing guide and a tile I glue 400 and 600 sand paper on. Am I good at sharpening? not really hehe the micro bevels are a bit large. I have 2 grinders a 6 and a slow speed 8 and I'm clumsy so I have got blue spots. The Kings I only soak when I need them (sort of fun watching for the bubbles to stop). Are they messy? Sure but they work though it takes me a bit. For flattening I use sand paper on the tile to get it down to where the water stones can take over. For touch ups its 1 4 6 usually and the 1000 may be overkill. No experience with Shaptons, ceramics or diamond plates those are down the road I hope,

Yeah, I can relate to those blue spots. Working with powdered metal lathe tools, I forget how quickly these vintage blades can blue. Would you consider your grinding (lower grits to 1000) to be reasonable or frustrating? And, how how do you flatten those stones?

Appreciate the response.

[Pam Niedermayer]

thanks Mike and others,

Perhaps the truth does lie somewhere between--water stones are not the best medium for flattening ... and most of our group don't often have the need for blade back flattening--especially with the newer, quality tools.

Water stones work fine for keeping my blade backs flat.

Pam

[Archie England]

Water stones work fine for keeping my blade backs flat.

Pam

Okay Pam, which stones and particularly sequence of stones do you use to flatten blade backs, especially those of vintage origins? (PS: what's the messiness factor?)

[Sean Hughto]

I know you didn't ask me, but I've rehabbed many vintage chisels, and for back flattening, I typically start with DMT duo sharp coarse/extra coarse

http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL

After that, any series of decent stones will finish it up to a mirror. If I'm using water, I often just use my Norton 1000/4000/8000.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Following an idea in Garrett Hack's book, when I've gotten vintage plane irons that are in real bad shape, I've used a small drill mounted grinding wheel to put a slight hollow grind on the back of the blade to help aid in lapping the back flat where it matters. I've do it shallow enough that over subsequent lapping of the back it usually disappears. It's quite helpful when you get an iron with a bit of a belly to to it, as it's quite difficult, if not impossible to get the back flat if it's continually rocking on a hump. Getting two bearing points makes the process a lot more fool proof.

(Page 68 (http://books.google.com/books?id=lSVMWpzqfNgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+handplane+book&hl=en&ei=gEskTp24Dcq10AHTxOm9Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hollow%20grind%20drill&f=false) in my copy of the Handplane Book.)

[Pam Niedermayer]

Okay Pam, which stones and particularly sequence of stones do you use to flatten blade backs, especially those of vintage origins? (PS: what's the messiness factor?)

See, I knew I shouldn't contribute to this thread. I started using natural waterstones a few years ago and the sequence varies depending on the blade in question. Not that I'd be able to tell you what they're called anyhow, simply have no idea, a real hodgepodge. Sometimes I'll start with a Makita horizontal water grinder if the blade's badly mucked up. Recently I bought a couple of diamond stones, but they're more for CPM 3V stuff in the future and the water stones themselves than for my regular blades.

Pam

[Archie England]

See, I knew I shouldn't contribute to this thread. I started using natural waterstones a few years ago and the sequence varies depending on the blade in question. Not that I'd be able to tell you what they're called anyhow, simply have no idea, a real hodgepodge. Sometimes I'll start with a Makita horizontal water grinder if the blade's badly mucked up. Recently I bought a couple of diamond stones, but they're more for CPM 3V stuff in the future and the water stones themselves than for my regular blades.

Pam


This is hilarious!! I need a therapist ;-)

[michael osadchuk]

An interesting AND meandering thread.........

My handplanes and chisels have 01 or A2 steel and for them a cheapy 6" grinder with a white Norton 80 grit stone, and a pretty full range of King waterstones plus some natural Japanese finishing stones that Lee Valley had on a clearance sale a few years ago, does me fine.....
.... I also have a Hong Kong style high angle wood plane and the inexpensive Kahuri Japanese style smoothing wood plane (both sold by Lee Valley) and their blades, which I suspect, are high speed steel, take much more time to hone on the above stones........and if I was planning to get into the specialty steels (CPM 3V) - or starting from scratch - I would very likely buy ceramic stones (but I'm not planning to and have a couple of lifetimes of King and natural Japanese waterstones to work thru - smiley)....

.... like Pam, I also have the Makita powered horizontal water stone sharpener (bought decades ago) but only drag it out and set it up to home sharpen the blades from (powered) jointer and planer machines, a bit messy but it does this particular job extremely well.

....comment on the Norton 220 stone: this is probably the only thing I've returned to Lee Valley for, imho, substandard performance ( yes, coarse grit waterstones wear faster than higher grit but this would have worn away to nothing after a several dozen blades)..... this has been replaced with the 3 lb. silicon stone LV also sells and am happy with it
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33025&cat=1,43072,67175,67177&ap=1

.... Decades ago I had a bad experience with diamond stones (DMT actually) on ordinary O1 and A2 steel ..... perhaps it was my poor technigue but they wore out way too fast to be a value for money solution..... I do believe diamonds should be great (because of their hardness rating) but I would go with diamond paste on mdf as a more economical solution (believe diamond plates are fine for flattening stones though)......

good luck

michael

[Kevin Lucas]

without using a grinder or as little as possible the low grit stone or 1000 work fine even for making the whole 25 degree main bevel. It takes a bit though. The sand paper on tile with low grit paper 220 or below works quick as well. For flattening the stones after use I have an old belt sander strip I put on the jointer bed and flatten the 1000 stone. Then I just rub the 2000 against the 1000 back and forth and in an x pattern. I work on up to the 6000 that way. coarser stone vs softer stone each time. The really coarse 250 I rub on the concrete floor or on a cinder block. As I said low tech!

[Archie England]

For flattening the stones after use I have an old belt sander strip I put on the jointer bed and flatten the 1000 stone. Then I just rub the 2000 against the 1000 back and forth and in an x pattern. I work on up to the 6000 that way. coarser stone vs softer stone each time. The really coarse 250 I rub on the concrete floor or on a cinder block. As I said low tech!

That's great! I'm in the process of getting a coarse/xcoarse diamond stone to flatten my "future" water stones. BTW, which water stones do you use? Obviously, you've got the 250,1000, 2000, and 6000; are these Kings?

In my hunt for stones to replace the Nortons, which are going to a friend, I'm looking to improve over the Nortons. Flattening blade backs remains the task! I've got grinders galore to help with hollow grinding bevels.

How often do you have to flatten your Kings (please do let me know which ones you have)? Which ones are really messy to use?

thanks

[Kevin Lucas]

All the stones are Kings and I use them because they were free from a cousin who knew I was into sharpening old tools. I flatten after each use usually unless I get lazy ) They are not too messy slurry wise but I am. I always seem to get some on me. Would I like diamond stones, nortons ceramics etc sure but these are cheap and work. The 1, 4 and 6 get flattened a lot since I use them most and using all 3 to do touch ups is probably overkill. I can't get good at honing compounds and leather.

[Archie England]

All the stones are Kings and I use them because they were free from a cousin who knew I was into sharpening old tools. I flatten after each use usually unless I get lazy ) They are not too messy slurry wise but I am. I always seem to get some on me. Would I like diamond stones, nortons ceramics etc sure but these are cheap and work. The 1, 4 and 6 get flattened a lot since I use them most and using all 3 to do touch ups is probably overkill. I can't get good at honing compounds and leather.

Well, that's sorta my point for this thread: the older stones still work! I've given my Nortons to a friend. So, I can buy less, same, or better than the Nortons. I loved the Norton 4/8k combo stone: it yielded sharp, polished results. I was amazed to discvover that it was actually the micron size of a 2500/5000 stone rather than what's published. Doesn't matter, really. One could add a much better 1000 stone plus a true 8000-12000 grit stone and still have a tremendously good step system. The buy in of the Kings is indeed cheaper below 6000. Once you get there, little price difference exists. Do I pay half the money for half the stone? Or, what?

In the end, I've discovered some aspects of truth in this search for the better mouse trap (water stones). All stones work, but not all stones work equally. You typically get what you pay for, unless of course, you bought a 8000 stone that was really only a 6000 stone.