American Woodshop and WW shows in general [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Josh Rudolph

07-15-2011, 7:37 AM

I wanted to pose a question about the American Woodshop show. Is it me or has the show declined in quality? I would really like to pump up my ego and say my abilities have drastically improved, but it seems the show is really grasping for things to show. I don’t seem to see much coming out of the show that anyone couldn’t do with a large budget to buy the tools he uses.. It seems almost all projects are built with power tools and pocket screws. Don’t get me wrong…I like pocket screws. I have a Kreg jig and use it regularly, but some of the projects he does, are not meant to be built with pocket screws. Anything that requires any type of carving is done on a CarveWright…again that is fine, but I would like to see alternatives and actually show me how you did it.
I am the new generation of woodworker…late 20’s, early 30’s, not much disposable money that is soaking up as much info as possible as quick as possible. There doesn’t ever seem to be any guilds around that I could join and learn and the only clubs I seem to be able to find are turning clubs. So I rely on shows, books and the internet to learn.
One of the most recent shows was building this corner desk type of thing out of three reclaimed doors. The doors were reclaimed and repurposed which is cool, but the project was really uninteresting and did not provoke me to want to try any of it. Yesterday’s episode was making a box with marbles. Neat little project I thought. Of course it required the use of the CarveWright to add a shell and then half blind dovetails which were done on a machine and to me looked very unbalanced in proportions, just short of ruining the box design.
It seems the only show I consistently watch and enjoy is The Woodwright’s Shop. However, I am not an exclusive hand tool woodworker, so some episodes can be very boring. I did like the Tommy Mac’s podcast when he was doing them. The Rough Cut show is almost unbearable and unmotivating as the projects are relatively simple and not substantial. The Woodsmith show is painfully scripted to the point I would rather not watch it. The guys take turns finishing each other’s sentence which is just weird!
I don’t understand the studios that develop these shows and what demographic they are sampling to create the shows. No show will be perfect, but I wish they would start creating shows with projects that are more involved and to me more gratifying.
What do you think?

Rod Sheridan

07-15-2011, 7:53 AM

Hi Josh, I live in Toronto and receive 4 wood working shows off air

- The WoodTurning Workshop (Tim Yoder)

- American Woodshop

- Rough Cuts

- The Woodwrights Shop

The wood turning show is very good, a mix of basic and advanced projects that teach the newbie and inspire them to gain further skills.

American Woodshop is the worst program I have ever seen. Once again no tablesaw guard, come on guys we know there's a blade in there, start showing proper work procedures. The other issue is how innane the projects are, grasping for straws would be a better show title.

Rough Cuts, although I dislike Tommy's attempt to be "cool with the kids" on air persona, his show has some nice approaches, and it's a good mix of power and hand tools. It's one of the shows where his formal education in woodworking shows to advantage, watching it reminds me of my FIL who had a formal apprenticeship in England just after the war. A good show although the project choices haven't been anything I've been interested in.

The Woodwright's Shop, what can I say, it's Roy. He's entertaining, educational and has great guests on his shows. His show could be a model for the modern shows, just add power tools. I really like his show, slightly whimsical, yet serious at the same time. The best of the group.

Regards, Rod.

Bob Winkler

07-15-2011, 8:02 AM

Josh,

I can't comment on America Woodworker or the Woodwright's Shop- my cable doesn't provide them. I do a series record of all episodes of the Rough Cut and Woodsmith shows, which I watch for relaxation. Here are some general comments and opinions:

- watching someone woodwork is inherently boring. For me planning, doing, and seeing the end result of what I create is where the excitement is.
- i occasionally pick up neat tips from the shows I watch. This is the same as most DIY shows. Not always, but sometimes you can learn new tools or techniques.
- For me, magazines and books are much more useful. Their format allows much greater depth, plans, and pics to stare at. I read and save many of them.
- For me, I sometimes get trapped into viewing or watching woodworking. This is a passive activity. When I get out to the shop and actually get something done, it's that experience that is the greatest teacher.

Just some random thoughts.

Bob

Matt Kestenbaum

07-15-2011, 8:57 AM

I have two gripes about the American Woodshop:

Scott Philips is perhaps the most shameless promoter of power tools (over skills for sure)...a few weeks ago I saw an episode where he was literally juggling three corded sanders in his arms/hands at the same! I was almost like he was doing it as ironic gag to tell Delta to get of his back. Of course there is no sense of irony on that show. Which is my second complaint...generally these shows are so dorky! Tommy McDonald best of current bunch. I think Marc Spagnuolo of the wood whisperer has the best camera persona...give that man a contract.

Is this the Ned Flanders' show? (Simpson reference). Hey-hoe-dilly-do-key woodworkers! Or maybe "Mr. Rogers does woodworking"...maybe start off with a feel good song while he changes from cardigan to apron and puts on some comfy shop shoes. (BTW nothing wrong with Mr. Rodgers, but its already been done!)

Of course poorly produced woodworking shows are still better than nothing.

Matt Kestenbaum

07-15-2011, 9:52 AM

After I posted I recalled watching a lot of Tommy Mac's podcast and you are right...those were awesome...watching him build the Bombe Chest was amazing. Especially the agonizing but very real, very human epsiode where he has to rip out and scrap 20 hours of work and mahogany when the doubler under the gallery is screwed up. Maybe its the TV format?

Alos, there is another thread somewhere here about Philips' use of divining rods (dowsing) to locate gas and water lines in his yard while building/installing an outdoor project...very funny reading!

Josh Rudolph

07-15-2011, 10:00 AM

Tommy McDonald best of current bunch. I think Marc Spagnuolo of the wood whisperer has the best camera persona...give that man a contract.

I agree with you that Rough Cut is probably the best mix of skills. I do enjoy Marc's webcast, and now that he is doing a little more handwork, he is becoming more appealing to all woodworkers.

Of course poorly produced woodworking shows are still better than nothing.

I am getting to the point that I will argue with you on this. Like I said in a previous post I am the "new" generation of woodworkers. I am so turned off by bad/repeated articles in magazines and bad shows I sometimes wonder if this all woodworking is about. It becomes extremely boring and mundane.
I however know better as I have been exposed to the old FWW magazines and was a subsrcriber to PWW. I have attended WIA. I have many blogs that I follow and have experienced what true craftsmanship is. It gives me something to strive for.
I do not strive to be able to do projects featured on American Woodshop or Woodsmith. I do strive to work to the level of Thomas MacDonald (pre-show) and Roy Underhill. They are true craftsman that I believe we all can learn something from. Which is what the shows should be aimed at.

I have no active magazine subscriptions anymore, the only one I may consider renewing is PWW. Occassionally FWW will publish what I consider to be a decent article or two and I will pick it up at the store, but for the most part, the money saved from magazine has been reinvested in videos and have paid dividends.

Doug Morgan

07-15-2011, 10:17 AM

I too agree with you Josh.

I loved it with New Yankee would do dove tails or other joinery to create some beautiful works. I did 4 Jewelry cases from the NYWS with the dovetails on the drawers. Other projects like his chop saw table, I used to create one for my workshop, now which I wish I had not due to better chop saw designs.

With this new breed of woodworking from American Workshop (even though they come from Bowling Green area in Ohio) he takes too many short cuts. He cuts up doors and joins them together with screws and calls it real workmanship. (even though its a great idea to salvage items that get thrown out and trashed) I want some real meat of a project.

Rough cuts does a good job. They do a lot of dove tails by hand and uses the hand planer to clean up the project, yet Norm would produce a project using great machinery to which he did not need to go black and hand plane it. I miss some real projects where they show jigs that can be made to create a detailed project. Tommy uses sketchup cad to draw up the project for viewers. Both rough cuts and American workshop use the sawstop table saw.

We dont have any wood turning programs on our PBS system here where I live or I would be glued to the screen to see just how they do things.

Yes a lot of things are going by the way side. Don't get me started down this path. I have watched the abilities of great electronics technicians get tossed aside for board swappers.

Neil Brooks

07-15-2011, 10:40 AM

I don't think we WW are the narrow demographic we once were.

If we ever WERE a narrow demographic.

When you look at the various online forums, you see how readily we segment ... just along the lines of how we work (ie, hand tools vs. power tools).

Now multiply THAT by ages, incomes, education levels, skill levels, etc., and you get ... a pretty big challenge in trying to pick and access your target market, or ... an even BIGGER challenge in trying to create a show that appeals to everybody.

I've met Tommy Mac, and spent some time with him. His on-camera persona IS who he is, and -- even if it isn't always my favorite part of the show -- I'm darned glad that they gave him a show.

Like the tobacco companies, a big part of the WW demographic is dying/will die. To the extent that Tommy CAN appeal to a younger crowd, that helps preserve the future of our craft, and -- with luck -- the people who seek to come up with innovations that benefit us.

I've only just started taping American Woodworker, but I sure see where you're all coming from.

Half the time, when I watch an old NYW, it reminds me of what I think when I see an old rerun of "Seinfeld:"

Now WHY did I like this, again ? ;)

Sadly (or happily), with ANY of these shows (except for Roy. I'm not a neander ;)), my hope is to learn ONE OR TWO useful things, in any given episode.

And I usually do :)

Ken Fitzgerald

07-15-2011, 10:48 AM

The American Workshop has never been a favorite of mine.

NYW was a favorite. I learned a lot watching Norm.

Woodturning Workshop with Tim Yoder was on here for a few months and I loved it. Then the local PBS channels removed it.

Only recently has the Woodsmith Workshop been aired locally and I haven't been bored by it yet but I agree it's heavily scripted. But with that many people and on 26 minutes...you gotta move on.....

The local PBS channels have reduced the number of woodworking shows they carry or they have put them at hours where I'm not up and awake to view them. I watch fewer today than even a year ago.

Chris Fournier

07-15-2011, 11:07 AM

All TV shows need to flow quickly and move around alot to keep the audience entranced and at the end a pile of lumber must finish up as a piece of furniture - which is a remarkable feat. For the average person the WW'g shows out there do just that. It's a pity because for the enthusiasts like many of this forums membership I think that some of the quiet, inconspicuous, dark corner stuff would make for a great show that would actually help us use the equipment and tools that we have more effectively. Jigs, fixtures, tool fettling and sharpening, equipment modification, storage, materials sourcing, "fine" finishing techniques etc would have my butt on the sofa. I also think that this sort of proposal to a network would have my butt on the street!

Dan Hintz

07-15-2011, 11:14 AM

I watch Woodturning Workshop and enjoy it... I'm still in the learning phase, so occasionally I'll pick up a useful tidbit or two when he doesn't make the assumption I already know what I'm doing.

I was the one who started the dowsing thread after an episode of American Woodshop... I don't take as high an interest in flatwork compared to turning, but I grew up on it with my father's work in the basement, and I still enjoy all woodworking shows (like the New Yankee) to one degree or another. I agree that the projects are not always interesting, but it's the typical trade-off. I'm not excited when they start using expensive machines (e.g., CarveWright), that do not have inexpensive alternatives... I'm okay with them using a $10k table saw, as long as I can achieve similar goals with a $500 Sears saw and a little extra frustration. The only way the average person could achieve CarveWright type effects is, well, with a CarveWright, so it should feature prominently in any design they show.

IMO, the shows should be less about a project that may only fit into only 1 in 1,000 household decors and more about proper techniques, methods, hints, tips, etc. with suggestions for proper tools. It seems more common for these shows to end up pushing the project itself and the new fancy tools you can use to create it rather than the techniques.

I had not heard of the other two mentioned here, so I'll check when I get home if the local PBS is carrying them. I DVR everything and watch when I want to wind down.

Joe Fabbri

07-15-2011, 11:36 AM

Hey Josh,

Yeah, I've been watching the American Woodshop for sometime, and I think every time I go to watch it, I hope there's going to be a bit less specialized too usage, for us folk who don't have a power tool for every possible thing.

I have trouble understanding or relating to a show that refuses to acknowledge that most people, especially those who would actually be watching such a show (not a professional most likely, but a beginner), don't have thousands and thousands of dollars worth of tools.

In general, I think American Woodshop should be renamed to Ripping or Routing with....haha. It seems half the show is devoted to that. Also, is it me (since I'm not really experienced), or does he not demonstrate great finishing skills? It seems he likes to just slop it on and around.

The Woodwright's shop is still enjoyable, though it can get a bit boring once in a while, since it's all hand tools. I still like it though, probably because I'm drawn to hand work more and old fashioned techniques.

Tommy Mac's show was (or is-is it still on?) okay. He did have a decent balance between hand and power tools, which I liked. The dynamics of the show were a little strange--a bit hyped up, I think. I'd take it over American woodshop, though. At least they used handplanes once in a while, other than for their show's logo. Wait, I think there was a handplane used once on American Woodshop....

Dave Lehnert

07-15-2011, 12:08 PM

I'm willing to bet that us serious woodworkers (that's why we are here on sawmill) are not the target audience for the show. They are after the weekend DYI'er.

Dan Hintz

07-15-2011, 1:41 PM

Also, is it me (since I'm not really experienced), or does he not demonstrate great finishing skills? It seems he likes to just slop it on and around.
<chuckle> You'd cringe at the show a couple of days ago where he created a Shaker-inspired hope chest. He added "a single teaspoon" of dye to the finish by tipping the bottle over... <glug glug glug> more like 5 or 6 teaspoons. Tough to color match with that kind of measurement, so with him he just pours more than he'll ever need in a container and tosses the rest. He sloshed it back and forth with the brush, hit the resonant frequency of the mixture (;)), and huge drops appeared in the background on his bench.

Peter Scoma

07-15-2011, 1:47 PM

Josh,

I can't comment on America Woodworker or the Woodwright's Shop- my cable doesn't provide them.
Bob

Hey Bob. Google "Woodwright's shop videos pbs" and click on the first link. There are maybe 40 WWS episodes available to watch online.

The woodwrights shop is by far my favorite show but sometimes Roy's demeanor gets to me. He always seems super anxious and rushes through everything he does. I understand he can't take 5 minutes to pare a dovetail joint to fit but maybe doing a little less actual work more carefully? Just a thought.

PJS

Josh Rudolph

07-15-2011, 1:51 PM

I'm willing to bet that us serious woodworkers (that's why we are here on sawmill) are not the target audience for the show. They are after the weekend DYI'er.

Dave,

Unfortunately you are probably right. However I think they are really missing out. IMO...Catering to the DIY WW is a small market due to what is perceived as a high startup cost, I know people will disagree with that logic but I believe it to be correct. However the DIY home repair or renovation market is huge. If that is their target audience, I think they are missing that also. I think they are focusing on the retired tinkerer who wants to take up WW and make something that isn't going to invest too much time. They can crank out a project pretty quick and be gratified. They also tend to have a little more disposable income.

I guess my biggest gripe is that I am a visual learner and have to see it to understand it. Taking classes would be awesome, but that loops right back into the I can't afford that route but maybe once a year if I am lucky. Buying videos is an option, but there is no feedback from an instructor or easy correction of improper technique. This route can also get expensive. We get this perceived great potential source of info dangled in front of me for free (WW shows) and they turn out to be not so great. It is very frustrating.

Josh

Jim Rimmer

07-15-2011, 2:15 PM

Try this link to reruns of Norm's show. http://www.newyankee.com/index.php
They usually do a new one each week.

Steve Rowe

07-15-2011, 4:42 PM

We don't get American Woodshop in our area so cannot comment on your observation. While I always like to watch Woodright Shop, my all time favorite was Woodworks with David Marks followed by Norm both of which are no longer in production. I think the same thing has happened with woodworking magazines. They have all been dumbed down to the least common denominator to gain a wider audience. Unfortunately, by doing so, they lost me and likely a host of others as I have let all woodworking magazine subscriptions expire. I am always getting emails from FWW that they want me back with the offer of the 'free' $10 cabinet scraper. It is pretty pathetic when a mag has to resort to 'free' anything to get me to subscribe and indicates they really don't have a clue. It is content and not freebees that matter.

Mark Conde

07-15-2011, 7:00 PM

I have a love/hate relationship with the TV ww shows. Here's my take on them:

NYW -- I really miss it. Norm was a big inspiration to me early on.

Wood Works with David Marks - This was a great show. David had a good balance of machine and hand tools. His projects were not simple nor complex..just right.

WoodTurning Workshop -- very good. Yoder does a super job.

WoodSmith -- I will pass on this one everytime. The show has so little substance, that watching is more like wasting time.

WoodWright Shop-- When Roy is not giggling or cutting himself, I can usually take a nugget or two away.

Rough Cut -- Tommy is OK but the editing makes me dizzy. They cut away and zoom in so quickly it is like being on rollercoaster. The projects are good. Oh, but he can leave out all the guest appearances. They suck up too much time.

I used to think that the TV shows provided better content than the podcasts on the internet. Now, I am a firm believer in The WoodWhisperer and the podcasts from FineWoodworking mag and Pop. Woodworking mag. Even Woodworking for mere mortals provides better value than say the Woodsmith show.

Gotta go now..I going to watch the Wood Whisperer now.

Chris Tsutsui

07-15-2011, 7:10 PM

My DVR records pretty much all the episodes and every once in a while i will watch a few in this priority:

Woodturning Workshop (Great special guests on some episodes, and entertaining to watch. I'm also new to woodturning so I learn a lot still)
Rough Cut (I love his combination of festool, sawstop, and hand tools. Plus he's inspired by a lot of historical work and goes on field trips)
American Woodshop (Scott has upgraded tools and seems more pressed to demo tools and cram everything in a short period of time)
Woodsmithshop (I'd rather just skim through the magazine than watch an entire show... I find myself fast forwarding every once in a while)
Woodwrights shop (Too old school hand tool for me, he's also got mad skills with the hand tools I won't try myself)

My DVR used to record Woodworks with David Marks. This was probably my favorite show. Egyptian and asian style work using craigstlist machines with MDF jigs, etc... I loved his choices of wood and his artistic approach and work with textures / patination.
I also used to be entertained by Hammered Diresta on DIY network. He had craftsman power tools for a while making all sorts of functional and creative work pieces

Phil Thien

07-15-2011, 7:51 PM

Doug Morgan

07-16-2011, 12:05 PM

I agree Phil, Norm never patted himself on the back in the middle of the project. I don't believe he ever did that even at the end. His big thing was that you will have a beautiful project at the end. Even Tommy Mack did that today. "Look at what I'm doing and how great that is" Todays project on American Woodshop did some dove tails but then surged back to the ole pocket screws. While pocket screws are good for some projects I dont believe that they need to be over used. Every 2 inches on a 4 foot blanket chest???? That was his comment today...

Curt Harms

07-16-2011, 1:03 PM

It helps to pay attention to who the sponsors are. Scott Phillips seems to have inherited Norm's Delta mantle. How many hand tools did Norm use? Tommy Mac's primary sponsor is Woodcraft. Woodcraft has a mix of hand and power tools. Tommy Mac uses a mix of hand and power tools. Although I'm sure he'd use the same mix with or without Woodcraft's sponsorship. WoodSmith seemed targeted toward the rank beginner. I was not a Tommy Mac fan at the beginning, too frenetic. Either the production/direction has changed or I've become accustomed.

Doug Morgan

07-16-2011, 2:01 PM

Russell Tribby

07-16-2011, 2:19 PM

I'm willing to bet that us serious woodworkers (that's why we are here on sawmill) are not the target audience for the show. They are after the weekend DYI'er.

Dave, that's probably the case. With that in mind some of the stuff that gets done on that show, if that is the target audience, is almost unconscionable for most woodworkers. The last time I happened to watch the show he was slopping on stain over the top of hinges all for the sake of expediency I suppose.
I remember when Norm announced his retirement I emailed Mark S. and voiced my hope that someone would pick up his show and put him on the air. Obviously that didn't happen but I think Tommy Mac has been a relatively good replacement

Jefferey Scott

07-18-2011, 1:40 PM

Not to take the thread off topic, but have you guys watched the DIY shows on HGTV or DIY network? I love the site built "furniture" they build with MDF and a nail gun. There is a girl on DIY that uses a Festool TS55, but without the dust extractor. I'd hate to have my house "crashed" by one of these folks!

Jerome Hanby

07-18-2011, 2:06 PM

Just last week I was watching American Woodshop and he jointed the edge of the board, and then said, "Look at that BEAUTIFUL straight edge." I cringe when I hear stuff like that.

Nahm never pointed at something he had just done and complimented himself on it.

I saw that episode and I didn't take it as bragging on himself, I took it as wow what beautiful edge this machine produced. American Woodshop is definitely not my favorite show, but any woodworking programing is better than none. I do like the evidence that many of his projects are "honey do's" from his wife. I tried tracking down video files of older episodes, but can't find anything other that seasons 14, 15, and 16...

Bud Millis

07-19-2011, 1:03 AM

I've watched these shows and other DIY shows for many years.

NYW -- Norm was a big inspiration to me early on. His projects did grow somewhat in complexity from season to season. Sorry to see Norm go.

Wood Works with David Marks - Very good show, although I find David to be "dry" personality wise. His projects were more artistic, he's very smart and talented.

WoodTurning Workshop -- I've only seen a few and our local guide always had the content screwed up on them. Yoder did a good job, although I kind of lost interest in him/the show.

WoodSmith -- If the people in white coats would just free one hand, I'd slit my wrists. Very basic, maybe for a newbie.

WoodWright Shop-- Roy is the guy who started it all. Very smart, easy to listen to, great guests and topics, field trips. great show.

Rough Cut -- I think this could and would be a much better show if they did 2 things at least. 1. Its like speed dating on crack. Slow it down. Look how WWS and NYWS did their shows. Its like there in a hurry for something? Given Tommy's back ground this could be a show more for advance woodworkers. Which leads me to #2. Get better quality projects - bread boxes and flag cases? Really??

I do understand marketing, and they do need to gear it towards the masses. They want to target 85% or so of the Handy Home Owners, the crafty person who wants to make a bread box and a trivet over the weekend. And this is how I feel about a lot of the wood rags on the market - they are not marketing towards the advance woodworkers. Stopping there. Don't get me going.

Jerome Hanby

07-19-2011, 8:03 AM

Rough Cut -- I think this could and would be a much better show if they did 2 things at least. 1. Its like speed dating on crack. Slow it down. Look how WWS and NYWS did their shows. Its like there in a hurry for something? Given Tommy's back ground this could be a show more for advance woodworkers. Which leads me to #2. Get better quality projects - bread boxes and flag cases? Really??

I do understand marketing, and they do need to gear it towards the masses. They want to target 85% or so of the Handy Home Owners, the crafty person who wants to make a bread box and a trivet over the weekend. And this is how I feel about a lot of the wood rags on the market - they are not marketing towards the advance woodworkers. Stopping there. Don't get me going.

I agree about the pace of the show. Seems spastic to me. I'm sure it's a cultural thing but the manner of speech already has me at arms length and all the high energy spazzing finishes the job. Get rid of the road trip sections and smooth out the rest of the program. The road trip bit is a good gimmick if used occasionally, but every show and especially with such minor projects, it's just too much. Norm did them fairly often, but then he built an interesting piece.

But then again, any woodworking is better than none, so I haven't missed an episode...

Phil Thien

07-19-2011, 8:31 AM

I saw that episode and I didn't take it as bragging on himself, I took it as wow what beautiful edge this machine produced.

I cringe at that, too!

My advice for these guys is get rid of words like beautiful, gorgeous, outstanding, awesome, fantastic, etc. Eliminate them from the show's vocabulary. Instead, demonstrate some modesty, be a little self-deprecating.

It worked for my shop teacher and Nahm, it will work for them, too.

Jerome Hanby

07-19-2011, 8:59 AM

I'd love to see a show where they used terms like, "well, I screwed that up, let's make another one and do it right". But, I guess each episode would be eight hours long:D

I cringe at that, too!

My advice for these guys is get rid of words like beautiful, gorgeous, outstanding, awesome, fantastic, etc. Eliminate them from the show's vocabulary. Instead, demonstrate some modesty, be a little self-deprecating.

It worked for my shop teacher and Nahm, it will work for them, too.

Dan Hintz

07-19-2011, 9:39 AM

I'd love to see a show where they used terms like, "well, I screwed that up, let's make another one and do it right". But, I guess each episode would be eight hours long:DYoder does that from time to time. My favorite was a few weeks ago when making a mortar/pestle. He was test-fitting an insert on a scrap board to make sure he turned it down to the proper diameter. Yep, he did. Turned it so well it he couldn't get it back out. He laughed about it quite a bit, and it was obvious he wasn't sure how he was going to get it back out without beating it up. In the end, he sliced off one edge of the test board with the bandsaw, leaving the insert unharmed.