honing guides? please help

[miguel bernardo]

Hi all, thanks for reading.

i have two honing guides, a eclipse and an "universal honing guide" from dick tools: http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/707149/Universal-Honing-Jig/detail.jsf

my problems are:

1) the eclipse: it doesn´t hold the blades well - plane blades (on the upper deck) tend to slide backwards and chisels (on the inferior part) tend to tilt if their width is inferior to +- 10 mm
the wheel on the guide tends to get stuck from time to time

2) with the "universal honing jig" : it is rather difficult to hold your blades 90º to the honing guide (i need a engineers square to do it) and if the chisel is to narrow, it tends to tilt sideways, giving a skewed honing

could you comment on solutions for this? do you know if the sliding thing with my eclipse is normal, or do i have a faulty unit? and, if i´m not abusing, are there alternatives worth checking? (i have red many times that systems like the veritas are overkill, and they shure are expensive : will they help me surpass these difficulties?)

thanks in advance,
miguel.

[Peter Scoma]

Not sure what to do with what you have but you may want to consider the Veritas MKII. The salesperson showed it to me on a whim last time I was in woodcraft and I've been itching to go back and get it. Maybe others can chime in on their experiences with this device.

PJS

[David Weaver]

If i have to use any (and sometimes I don't use one for a while, depending on mood), the eclipse is the one I use because it's fastest to use.

* Get a stubby screwdriver with a large blade to make sure that you're getting it good and tight on an iron.
* hollow grind your chisels or freehand hone them instead of using a guide, which just makes chisel sharpening take a long time
* develop some touch so that most of the pressure you put on an iron is close to the cutting edge and not most of the way up toward the honing guide, so that you're not getting a lot of leverage and pushing an iron around in the guide
* put a drop of oil on the wheel from time to time

I haven't seen the other guide before, but it looks like something I'd want to have nothing to do with.

I almost never use my MKII guide because it takes too long to fidget with it

I set the eclipse guide when I use it with a built up angle guide - one where I can shove the iron and the eclipse straight into the thing and just tighten the screw on the guide.

[Chris Griggs]

I have had the same problem with the eclipse style guide when using it with chisels in the lower clamp. I've never had issues with the upper deck and my assumtion is that your just need to tighten it a bit more.

Like David, I do like the eclipse honing guide overall - like he said tighten it with a screw driver and use a series of stops to set the angles consistently. I also have an LV MKII and prefer it to the eclipse, especially when I want to be sure to sharpen something square across.

The MKII guide is worth the money and not overkill in my opinion, but it's not required either - you should be able to get the eclipse to work fine, even on smaller chisels by following Davids advise above.

I actually don't use my eclipse honing guide much anymore, since I started hollow grinding and free handing. Typically, I freehand hone most of my blades, but if I want the certainty that comes with a guide, I use my MKII. Also, (this is probably the first time I've ever disagreed with David on anything) I really don't find the MKII to be anymore fidely then an eclipse (well ok, maybe a tad more).

[Chris Griggs]

I'll also add that if you have the inclination to dabble in free handing - chisels are the place to start. For me, chisels are always fidely to sharpen in a guide - regardless of which guide, and they are the main reason I decided to learn free handing. Plane blades on the other hand can be very quickly chucked into a guide and honed.

Also, its typically easier to freehand a chisel for most, since the blade is so thick and thus the bevel is wider than on a plane (therfore, easier to reference)

[Prashun Patel]

Free handing is the Holy Grail, but I went from the eclipse to the MKII and I am so happy I did.

I find the registration gauge easy to use. I get squarer edges than I ever did with the eclipse.

Two other great things is that because it clamps on the top and bottom instead of the sides, it holds 1/8" chisels perfectly square, and also works well with some Veritas plane blades that have angled sides.

[David Weaver]

I really don't find the MKII to be anymore fidely then an eclipse (well ok, maybe a tad more).

It's likely that I just haven't played with the MKII enough to get quick with it, and I probably never will. I keep it around because I'm afraid at some point, I will need the skew angle guide to grind something into a correct skew....but to this point, I have just honed skew irons freehand, too.

It's one of those things where I'm afraid if I sell it, I'll want to use it all of the sudden.

[Chris Griggs]

Funny, that's one of the main reasons I hold on to it too - so far I've been able to maintain the angle for my skew rabbet blade free hand, but I know that as soon as I sell the MKII I'm going do something that changes the angle and I'm going to wish I had the guide. That and when it comes to free handing I still have some days (though they are getting fewer and farther between) where I just can't make it happen.


It's likely that I just haven't played with the MKII enough to get quick with it, and I probably never will. I keep it around because I'm afraid at some point, I will need the skew angle guide to grind something into a correct skew....but to this point, I have just honed skew irons freehand, too.

It's one of those things where I'm afraid if I sell it, I'll want to use it all of the sudden.

[Tony Shea]

I actually just ordered the LV MKII during this last free shipping. Haven't received it yet though so cannot comment on it. I started out free-hand honing everything I had and feel everyone should do the same. It is a skill which all woodworker's who use edge tools should be required to learn. As David said above the easiest way to free hand is with a hollow grind, even on small beveled tools such as thin Stanley plane blades. I have recently started using my eclipse style honing guide on some of my newer LN and LV planes in order to increase the bevel angle without grinding a different bevel on them, instead using micro-bevels. This is to make the factory bevel a bit more robust per their instructions. I just make stop blocks for my angles and chuck the blade in the guide. I have actually become somewhat fond of this as my edges get incredibly sharp fast, although there is a tiny bit of setup involved. But the honing speed more than makes up for it due to the micro bevel. As has been stated, tighten down that clamping screw.

[tico vogt]

If blades are slipping in the Eclipse, it can help to do a small amount of filing. It's like many inexpensive tools that are "kits", some work on the part of the user is required to improve its performance.

[miguel bernardo]

thanks a lot for your input guys! as always, it´s much appreciated.

regarding free hand honing, i´m only starting my voyage with sharpening (and specially waterstones). i´ve never used an honing guide before, i´ve sharpen all my chisels and plane blades the free-hand way, and i still find it easier and faster to achieve the results i´m after. the problem is with my ebay´ed vintage chisels and planes : those are severely injured and i have to grind them all the way to get read of the notches, and i feel more comfortable getting the right angle with a honing guide. i have a very basic grinder (axminster.co.uk white brand) but i´m not confortable with it and i don´t seem to be able to get consistent results with it.

i will check and try to implement all the tips you have offered.

once more, thanks for all the help.

cheers,
miguel.

[Niels Cosman]

I use the mkII in the studio and the asian-ellipse at home.
For the money the ellipse is the best value. I used it for happily for years. If you build a simple little board with depth stops, repeating angles is dead-nuts simple. The wheel in the center is narrow enough to allow for cambering as well.

That being said, I love the mkII.
I find it the most versitle and a snap to set up. Very comfortable to use and The adjustments are awesome. my only gripes are that they really should use stainless screws for the blade clamp and that the little stop on the alignment jig is too short (this makes a difference with heavily cambered blades . The time it takes to set up is negligible in my opinion. The only blade that it can not accommodate are my pig sticker chisels. I either sharpen them freehand or with a kell guide (btw the only thing i use that jig for for).

[Harvey Pascoe]

That el cheapo Japanese guide works well for me even though it looks . . . well, hopeless on one tiny center wheel, it works great.

[Jim Matthews]

Perhaps this is obvious (but I'm oblivious) - are you pushing the blades forward or drawing them toward you?

Note the "lifting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzeAsX-09o4)" motion at 6:52 of the LN video.

[Dale Sautter]

Looks interesting (http://www.planetarypegs.com/doublebevelsharpeninghirez.html)

[Trevor Walsh]

I like to hollow grind with a rig I saw at the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop and hone freehand, there' a learning curve, but that's sharpening. I do have an Eclipse, my top clamp works well on everything I've stuck in there, though a file might be needed to clean out gunked on paint. Mostly the problem I have with the lower guide is when using chisels with larger side grinds. My Mark 2 Ashley Isles chisels fit well, but butt chisels with larger side grinds not so well. A file job may fix that but I haven't felt the need to try it.

[Ray Bohn]

>>* Get a stubby screwdriver with a large blade to make sure that you're getting it good and tight on an iron.<<

This is exactly what I did after a few days of fooling around with the Eclipse type guide. But I discovered a few months later that evidently I had cranked a little too much on the bolt. My plane blades were starting to ride up the side of the clamp on one side . I had created a lot of slop between the clamp and the threaded bolt by over tightening. One of the clamps was always skewed. The free replacement required some filing to remove uneven paint, etc. as suggested earlier.

I like the Eclipse because of the small wheel. It seems easy to create a camber.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Miguel

You have a couple of options.

The cheapest is to modify the "universal honing jig" by riveting on a side fence. I did this many years ago when there was only the Veritas Mk I. Just use a thin section of aluminium or brass (they are easiest to drill). That will ensure you are in the ballpark.

Second option is to make an bevel angle stop (you will find one on the LN website/Youtube videos). You need this with the Eclipse anyway. When you butt the end of a square blade against the depth stop for blade projection, it automatically square up the blade in the honing guide.

Thirdly, buy a Veritas Mk II, which has a built-in fence. I freehhand my bevel down plane blades and my chisels, but still use this guide for BU plane blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[miguel bernardo]

Perhaps this is obvious (but I'm oblivious) - are you pushing the blades forward or drawing them toward you?

Note the "lifting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzeAsX-09o4)" motion at 6:52 of the LN video.Hi Jim! i pull the blades towards me (or at least, i do so most of the time).

cheers,
miguel.

[miguel bernardo]

hi again!

regarding buying a new guide, i really would like to try again a few times with the eclipse. i now try to avoid buying my way out of trouble as must as i can (to much GAS in the past). if i really find - after implementing the tips mentioned here and trying to develop a "touch" for it - that i´m useless with the eclipse, i´ll investigate the other guides further (specially the LV mk II).

thanks again,
miguel.

[Josh Rudolph]

Looks interesting (http://www.planetarypegs.com/doublebevelsharpeninghirez.html)

I second this route. Watch the video associated, it makes sense. I like this method as it is simple, straight forward. You also do not lose a third of your stone due to your honing guide riding on the stone. Once you get setup with your shims, this system should be pretty quick.

BTW...I do freehand my chisels but switch back and forth from a Veritas and Eclipse guides.

[David Weaver]

Looks interesting (http://www.planetarypegs.com/doublebevelsharpeninghirez.html)

When I clicked on the link and saw the picture, I thought it was a spoof on people going overboard with guides. Apparently, it's not!

I can't believe someone would polish the entire bevel of a chisel the way the one shown at the bottom of the picture is polished.

[Josh Rudolph]

I can't believe someone would polish the entire bevel of a chisel the way the one shown at the bottom of the picture is polished.

Yeah...that is a bit excessive. I like the ease of changing bevels, adding microbevels, and being able to use the entire stone.

[Dan Hulbert]

Just order the MK II. I couldn't get a decent edge worth a hoot until I did. I'm a hobbiest and would reather spend time building than sharpening or praticing sharpening. Some of the best money I ever spent.

[jamie shard]

my only gripes are that they really should use stainless screws for the blade clamp and that the little stop on the alignment jig is too short (this makes a difference with heavily cambered blades .


I hope Rob Lee sees this: I think your comment on the little stop is right on. I would also add that I've knicked the corner of a plane blade by having it butt against the stop and then get "snapped off" when I tightened down the blade clamp. I have a feeling that if the stop was made out of hard nylon, this wouldn't happen.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Go on "Tools for Working Wood" and buy one of Joel's DVD's on freehand sharpening (there's one for oilstones and one for water stones). I mostly freehand, but I'm a sucker for ad copy and am forever buying sharpening jigs, but I've never found one that's faster than hollow grinding and then sharpening per the method shown on the oilstone DVD. Some call that freehand sharpening almost "side sharpening", I just call it quick.

[John Schroeder]

I've got an LN MKII that I like, as well as richard kell's jig, which i love. You can see it here: http://www.fine-tools.com/G303540.htm

[michael osadchuk]

Miguel

There are a lot of Eclipse honing guide copies and some of them have paint pooling in the corners and lower beveled holder..... use a file to return the sharp corners.

Christopher Schwartz in his former woodworking magazine blog had an article on doing this but its not hard to just take a critical eye to identify any sloppy corners that grip the iron/chisel and clean those up with a few minutes with a file.

good luck

michael

[Zahid Naqvi]

I think the first thing you need to determine is whether you incline towards free hand or jig based sharpening. All jigs have their strong or weak aspects and once you get used to the nuances of each contortion it's just a matter of creating standard processes to do routine sharpenings. I always naturally inclined towards free hand, but I didn't have the technique down. So it took me a little while to get the hang of it, now it almost feels instinctive. I still use the "universal honing jig" for some stuff. I think more than anything practice and creating standard process/technique are more important than anything else.

[David Weaver]

One aside - HF for a while had one of the eclipse style jigs for 3.99, and it had sloppy paint on it. I guess nobody bought the thing, because as far as I can tell, they no longer carry it.

I have three of them, so I didn't try HF's. I will generally pick them up if I see them for $8 or less on sale, and give one away when I meet someone who is never going to do anything other than sharpen a tool once a year (i.e., someone who might have a single block plane in a general tool box and use it only when the need arises).