I Hate My Veritas Low Angle Jack

[Harvey Pascoe]

I'll start by saying that I am not a hand plane afficionado. However, that said, I do know how to properly tune up a plane and I also have an assortment of mutt planes that work perfectly, but I'll be darned if I can get this Veritas low angle plane working right.

I make small boxes, usually working with tropical hardwoods in pieces 12" -14" long and due to the short lengths I like the long forefoot in order to get a good register on the work piece, hence I like the longer plane for this work. I added the 50 degree iron and brought the bevel up a bit higher, I forgot how much but say to 56 degrees. After resawing to 1/2" I use planes to flatten the piece when stress is relieved and it warps, among other things. Any comments?

My problem: no matter how I adjust it, the iron seems always to bite too deep or not at all with no in between. Could be one of two things, I just don't know how to use it, or this is the wrong plane for my work and I should sell it and get something else. I don't think the 2-1/2" wide blade is much of a help, either.

[David Weaver]

For pieces that small (and likely hard if they are tropicals), you probably would benefit from a smaller plane with a narrower cut, at least to get the workpiece flat.

You won't get those advertising shot 1/2 thousandth thick shavings until the board is totally flat.

If you have the board very flat and are still not able to get those, then something isn't tight or the iron isn't sharp enough.

[Chris Fournier]

My second least favorite plane: LN BU jack. Just don't care for it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As David said, until it's flat, you won't get those "magic" shavings. Sometimes it's tempting to advance the blade when you feel you aren't getting anything. If the plane is almost the size of the piece, at times you'll only get a couple of dusty nips for the first few strokes.

I always set my blade projection (well, usually I'm using it to make sure my iron is square to the mouth) on a piece of trued scrap stock. It gets you a good idea how your plane is really cutting. Then take it to the work piece; if you're not getting much of anything, keep going.

[Jim Paulson]

It took me a bit to get the hang of using my Veritas LA BU Jack as well. Likewise, I purchased the 50 degree iron and added a 5 degree micro bevel. I echo
comments of others about stock size too.

However, more than that I note that you didn't say anything about camber. I added my usual amount and it didn't measure up to the performance I wanted.

What made the difference is reading Derek's review of BU planes on the forum. He advocated more camber than I used to apply. Once I ground a camber of an eight inch radius curve it was amazing. As he explains you need greater camber in this configuration because of the low bedding angle. love the performance now even on tiger maple which is a challenge to hand plane.

Hope this helps and check out Derek's comparisons of BU versus BD.

[Brian Kent]

How do you sharpen your blade?
Are you going with the grain or against the grain?
How far is the blade projecting?

[Luke Townsley]

I've worked with Ipe before and I have a LV low angle jointer. I'm guessing you don't have the iron sharp enough. In fact, I'm wondering if you will even be able to get it sharp enough no matter what if you are putting that blunt an angle on it. The problem as I'm guessing it to be is that you really need to be sharpening the iron at roughly 30 degrees to get the degree of sharpness you need, otherwise, it will just bounce off the wood unless you take a deep bite and then you get tearout. If you absolutely have to have that high an angle, you could try a bevel down plane honing a backbevel on the iron, and even then I'm not sure you are going to get the desired effect.

You could try closing the mouth of your plane, honing the plane iron, skewing the plane as you cut, or regrinding the bevel to something much lower. In any event, I think I would try it on softer wood to make sure you have taken care of the really obvious and then go after the harder stuff.

[Prashun Patel]

I have this problem on many planes - the larger the 'worse'. I believe it's because of non-flatness of the board. You have to identify and work on the high spots first. I'm still not great at it, but when I discovered this was my error, I made great progress.

[Jim Neeley]

Harvey,

David Chatsworth shows a neat trick for setting cutting depth on his "Part 3: Precision Shooting Simplified". He demonstrates taking a piece of scrap, perhaps 2" x2" x 3/4", holding the plate steady (about upside down) and running the scrap over the mouth of the plane. Do it on both sides until the cut is small and even. Then take it to your stock.

As for the 56*, I'm not a plane expert but that angle, on top of the 12* bed angle, brings the plane to 68*.

L-N offers their highest angle frog at 55* and LV's 50* blade + 12* = 62*, which is about as high of an angle as I've heard of, short of scraping.

If you take that angle down to about 33* you'd match yor typical 45* bevel-down plane. In your case it's as if you put a 23* back-bevel on a bevel-down plane.

Others, those far more experienced than I, can speak to what that'd be like. LV offers the blades in 25*, 38* and 50*. As for me, I suspect that angle is causing you problems.

[Matt Bickford]

Harvey,
Did the plane work well when you first got it and are now having problems? or have you never had success with it?
Matt

[paul cottingham]

I own the LA Jack, and it is my go to plane. It is a bear to push with the 50 degree blade, and I am a big (275 lb) guy. I would try a lower angle blade, and make sure you are waxing the bottom of the plane. That 50 is tough to get really sharp, too, especially on stones. I have real trouble with it digging in while I sharpen it.

[glenn bradley]

Yes, get rid of that thing. Send it to me right away, before its too late. ;)

Seriously though; not much help here. I have the 50* iron. I just went out to the shop, removed the iron and messed up the setup. I install the iron and make it lightly snug. I set the plane on a known flat board and slide it back and forth a bit as I extend the iron. I stop once the iron starts to cut and cinch it down. Popped a piece of walnut in the vise and did this:

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The first few strokes were uneven in width as I took the high spots off. It then got to where I was getting those 'magazine ad' looking shavings. I sharpen mine on the Worksharp 3K and also have the lower angle iron which I have not used yet IIRC. I do have other LA planes and have good luck with them also.

I did have trouble with the toe/mouth adjustment piece setting about .2 low on one side on my first one of these. This made the plane completely unworkable. A replacement was immediately sent out and I got it the day after I dropped mine off at the post office to return. The replacement was perfect and has been a joy to use. Does your entire sole appear perfectly flat?

All that being said, planes are very personal things. I recall a post where someone could not get a comfortable grip on their LV medium shoulder plane which practically jumps into my hand. Maybe it is just a bad fit.

[Tri Hoang]

There aren't that many things that can go wrong with a bevel up plane. Is the blade sharp (and I mean SHARP)? At 56* planing angle, it has better be pretty sharp. Secondly, if the wood isn't flat, use a foreplane (or a scrub) first to rid it off any bow/cup.

[Joel Goodman]

Harvey,

David Chatsworth shows a neat trick for setting cutting depth on his "Part 3: Precision Shooting Simplified". He demonstrates taking a piece of scrap, perhaps 2" x2" x 3/4", holding the plate steady (about upside down) and running the scrap over the mouth of the plane. Do it on both sides until the cut is small and even. Then take it to your stock.



I will be forever grateful to Deneb who showed me this trick at a LN event. I use a scrap a little longer say 2" by 6" long by 1/2" thick. It really helped me get the iron aligned properly, even and at the correct depth.

Also +1 on the too high an angle. My thought is that the lowest angle that will work without tearout issues will give the best surface with the least effort. At a certain angle your really scraping. I would regrind the iron to 25 or 30 degrees and then microbevel to 35 to 38 degrees to give a 47 to 50 degree included angle (pitch). Then increase the microbevel -- if needed --- by small amounts. I have the LN BU jack and it works really well with 38 degrees on the microbevel for most uses.

[Jim Koepke]

I'll be darned if I can get this Veritas low angle plane working right.

[snip]

I added the 50 degree iron and brought the bevel up a bit higher, I forgot how much but say to 56 degrees.

[snip]

My problem: no matter how I adjust it, the iron seems always to bite too deep or not at all with no in between. Could be one of two things, I just don't know how to use it, or this is the wrong plane for my work and I should sell it and get something else. I don't think the 2-1/2" wide blade is much of a help, either.

Pondering this and what others have said brings a question or two to mind.

You mention adding the 50° blade, is this a second blade or your only blade?

If there is another blade can you get the plane to work with that blade?

In my experience this kind of behavior could be caused by a few problems. It could be that you received a bad plane. Great plane makers are great because of what they do when a bad plane slips out of their hands. LV is well known for their customer service. I received fantastic service from them when the shipping company messed up. A plane with a warped sole could have this kind of problem. That would be easy to spot with a straight edge.

Another cause could be a small bevel on the underside of the blade.

This is a very common cause for this kind of failure. Finding this in many planes and the effect back bevels have on the blade action led me too selectively beveling some blades as an alternate way to camber a blade.

A search here on SMC for > camber round tuit < brings up 8 hits on cambering threads. I am sure there are more, but that is how I find my post:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came

Another post that could help explain a similar problem I had with a $1 block plane is:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?123401-Fettle-to-the-Metal-With-LA-Blocks&p=1246005

The plane's sole was concave from front to back. The blade also started cutting right out of the mouth and was a bear to adjust before I did some work on it. It wouldn't cut without the blade out a way and pressing down on the plane. It would always stop cutting at the end of a cut as the downward pressure was relieved.

In your case, if there is something wrong with the plane body it would be best to contact LV instead of trying to fettle the plane yourself.

My LN #62 blade is a big pain to sharpen. At a quarter inch thick there is a lot of metal touching the stone when it is being sharpened. A higher angle would make a little less metal, but still a bit of work.

jtk

[Harvey Pascoe]

Heh, I knew I'd get an earfull here and since no one (almost) voices the same complaints I do, I figured that the problem was mine. What the plane was doing can best be describe as porpoising and would not take a continuous cut without coming up out of the wood.

So, last night I reground the blade to 50 degrees removing the micro bevel, rehoned and tested on a piece of hard maple. Did okay, got a nice .002 shaving.

What I really wanted this plane for was flattening unevenly saw veneers so I then tried it out on a piece of bois de rose that was scalloped, .200" on the ends and as thin as .077 in the middle. Viola! I got the veneer down to an even .075". Veneer size 3.5 x 14". Then I tried it on a piece of nasty shedua,one of the worst for tear out - no tear out. Problem solved.

Why a big jack plane on a veneer? Because the long forefoot holds the veneer down and prevents it from buckling and breaking. I also wanted to use it for sizing stringing for use in laminations for the same reason.

I still don't know why it wasn't cutting right, I can't see where the micro bevel had something to do with it as, someone above said, it should have been acting like a scraper, but it wasn't, it was digging in. When I reground the blade, I got a hollow or concave grind and left it that way, just honing to 50 degrees on the leading edge so that only the leading edge 1/16" has a mirror finish. Not being expert on this, all I can say is that whatever works, works. Thank you for all your help. I printed out all your responses for future reference.

[Harvey Pascoe]

Harvey,
Did the plane work well when you first got it and are now having problems? or have you never had success with it?
Matt

It worked okay on softer woods but never with very hard wood. I first had the standard 25 degree blade and then bought the 50 and there was little improvement. I couldn't even get a decent cut on a board edge. Perhaps my set up wasn't right, I don't know . .. .

As for camber, no, but I probably should.

[Jim Paulson]

Harvey,

I'm glad things are working better with the plane. If you want to use the plane for surfacing hardwood boards with challenging grain you might also want to check out this reference.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

I am sold on this LV BU Jack plane and the comments you received on the forum should be helpful. I opted for the A2 steel blade rather than the O1 and getting that micro bevel just right is key. I am favoring the A2 now because it stays sharper longer, but it takes more effort to hone. For me the Norton water stone 8000/1000 gives me the sharpness I want after I start honing with the scary sharp technique. I honed my micro bevel by hand, but I am hoping to get a guide to do it even more consistently.

I agree with one of the comments made earlier that planing at angle to the grain helps also. Especially, when you are taking more aggressive cuts in surfacing, skewing the plane into the grain works quite well and helps with reducing tearout.

Best wishes,

Jim

[Harvey Pascoe]

Thanks Jim. I have two A2 blades also and boy do they ever take longer to hone! I just bought the Veritas mark II guide, but guess what? The dang thing just barely holds the blade for 50 degrees - very hard to line it up square.

I only go to 4000 and that seems at least adequate. If you can do shedua without tear out you can do just about anything. I just worked a burl veneer and that went nicely. Oh, and I just remembered that some time ago I bought some 3M micro paper and I forgot I had it. Need to try it. 0.5 microns whatever that means.

[Chris Fournier]

I can sharpen this plane just fine, it's one of about a dozen block planes that I own, I just don't like it. There is a lot of meltal to grind on this style of plane compared to a bench plane as well and I find this extra time in the sharpening room isn't paid back on the bench.

I have found that my bench planes are the ones I reach for when I'm working face grain so this is my personal bias no doubt.

Now as for the size of the plane compared to the size of the board and all of this skipping stuff; simply skew the plane or work from the boards edge with the fore of the plane only and your 14" jack is now a smaller plane and away you go.

[David Keller NC]

Harvey - It's not a "for sure", but since you were able to get the plane to function by re-grinding the blade, I'm bettign that your initial problem was a very slight back-bevel on the blade. On a bevel-up plane, even a micro back-bevel is problematic because the plane's bed angle is so low. The back-bevel screws up the required clearance angle under the blade, and the behavior is exactly as you describe - either the plane will not cut, or it "dives" into the wood and the plane stalls when the blade extension is increased.

It is extremely easy to put an unintentional very small back-bevel on a plane blade; just your honing stone being dished by a few thousandths will do it, and incorrect stropping is another source.

These back bevels aren't a big deal on a bevel-down plane, as the plane has more then enough clearance angle because the bevel's down. But as you found out, bevel-up planes require a good bit more attention to geometry to have them work well, and that's why I generally don't recommend them for newbies or occasional plane users.

[Chris Fournier]

I agree 100% with David's observations regarding any back bevel on a block plane blade.

[Matt Bickford]

Harry,
The symptoms you describe scream clearance angle, or, lack there of.

[Jim Koepke]

Harvey,

Glad things are working for you now.


Not being expert on this, all I can say is that whatever works, works.

Actually, I think that is an expert opinion. It is why there are so many different paths to the same destination.

jtk

[Tony Shea]

Hey Harvey,

Def check out Derek's website about him using this plane. It was an eye opener for me and really has made this plane probably my favorite plane in my arsenal. Although my LN #7 is truely awesome and very good at its' job.

My biggest reccomendation that I haven't seen posted yet is ALWAYS buy the original 25* irons if you want any more blades. The higher angled blades are absolutely not neccessary. You can always add any degree of micro-bevel on the blade of the 25* iron and is actually easier to do with this low bevel angle. It;s also a lot more condusive to putting a larger camber on the 25* iron as there is less material that needs to be removed from this thick hunk of blade at whatever micro-bevel you use. This is a Derek reccomendation as well and has been a HUGE help. ALWAYS buy the 25* blades!

[Harvey Pascoe]

In all probability I likely messed up when lapping the back side.

The plane comes with a 25 blade and that one was hopeless for me.

Some people have the time to mess around with planes, but like Chris said, "it doesn't pay at the bench," I move onto something else less costly and time consuming, even if it means another plane. Just not going to mess around with micro bevels when I found something that works. I've got junk Stanleys and Craftsmans that work beautifully, so it vexes me that I should have to spend tens of hours messing with a $300 plane just to get it to work? Makes no sense.

[Jim Paulson]

Harvey,

Keeping the blade flat on the sand paper or sharpening stone will keep you from forming an inadvertent back bevel. It is possible that your blade came with a very slight back bevel. Seriously, if you aren't happy with this plane iron
or plane for that matter, I'd call LV customer service.

I know that when I spoke with LV representatives at a woodworking show, they were helpful on the A2 question and offered to exchange it for O1, if I desired later. I'm used to A2.

As a point of information, I got mine (LV BU Jack) for use on
shooting boards, but it has proven to be quite versatile. However, as much as I like it my favorite plane is still my old trusty blue and red Yankee Stanley 4.

Take care,
Jim

[Matt Radtke]

I've got junk Stanleys and Craftsmans that work beautifully, so it vexes me that I should have to spend tens of hours messing with a $300 plane just to get it to work? Makes no sense.

Something about that really doesn't make sense. If you're really having trouble with the LAJ, even with something easy like the 25* on pine, then maybe you got a dud.

[Adam Johan Bergren]

In all probability I likely messed up when lapping the back side.

The plane comes with a 25 blade and that one was hopeless for me.

Some people have the time to mess around with planes, but like Chris said, "it doesn't pay at the bench," I move onto something else less costly and time consuming, even if it means another plane. Just not going to mess around with micro bevels when I found something that works. I've got junk Stanleys and Craftsmans that work beautifully, so it vexes me that I should have to spend tens of hours messing with a $300 plane just to get it to work? Makes no sense.

This does make sense to me. As stated, you likely had a back bevel, which will cause the exact symptom you described. The difference is that the more expensive plane is bevel up. It can't tolerate any back bevel at all (you need minimum 15 degree clearance angle). With the other planes, a back bevel will, if anything, help (reduces tear-out).

I had this same problem once when I accidentally created a back bevel. Now I am really careful to avoid this, and I have no problems anymore. I had the "eureka" moment when reading Hock's "The Perfect Edge" that discussed clearance angles. I hadn't thought of this before, and suddenly I understood what the problem was.