need advice on tablesaw blade noise

[Bob Hampton]

I have an older craftsman contractor tablesaw ...its all in good working order but im having a problem with blade noise....
I have a new Irwin crosscut 40 tooth blade and its making a terrible high pitch kind of whining noise that i cant seem to get ride of ...it cuts just fine but the noise drives me crazy..never had a blade do this..usually all i hear is the whine from the blade spinning..
I was thinking that maybe i should go to an 80 tooth blade but im not sure...any idea's?

Thank for any info
Bob

[Myk Rian]

I'm not sure what you expect.
All blades make noise. That changes with how high it is cranked up, and different tooth counts create different sounds.
Are you sure it isn't the arbor or motor bearings?

[lowell holmes]

I use ear muffs to eliminate the noise. It will save your hearing.

[shane lyall]

Are you using a zero clearance insert? some blade will scream as the expantion slots pass the insert and be whisper quiet running without it. Remove the insert to test ONLY. Don't cut anything but just step back and let it run a bit. I've seen somewhere that adding wax to the slots will help tone it down if thats the source.

[Terry Beadle]

Another thing to try is putting some floor wax on both sides of the blade. Don't bother buffing.

It may be you have some thing like a cut off thin piece of wood or glue or what ever down in the body of the saw that will go quiet when the wax hits it.

The wax application should also clean the blade some what. The sound harmonic holes in the blade ( I think there is 3 ~ 4 of them ) should also be waxed.

[Tom Walz]

Some blades just scream. Each blade has its own harmonic properties that differ slightly from blade to blade. If the blade matches your saw just right it will scream. Above are good suggestions. Trying a different blade is probably the best solution.

[Callan Campbell]

Plus 1 on what Tom said. I have several blades for my Unisaw, most are quiet , but one is so noisy as compared to the rest that I tend to never use it unless I have to. Try a different blade if you can afford to.

[dave toney]

I have a couple of blades that whistle very loudly, it is the expansion holes, they are for my radial arm saw so it is not a matter of zero clearance inserts in my case.
Dave

[Bruce Page]

Not mentioned, 80 tooth blades are not good for general purpose work, they are more suited for cross cut operations and some sheet goods.

[Bob Wingard]

If the blade has the laser cut expansion slots, you can glop on a little RTV caulk ... it will fill the gaps, but still allow the blade to expand/contract as needed.

[scott spencer]

The Irwin Marathon and Sprint blades are fairly low quality IMHO....noise is only one of their many issues. The only decent Irwin blade I've encountered is the Irwin Woodworker series made in Germany by Leitz, but unfortunately they discontinued those. Honestly, I'd return it for another brand....Freud/Freud Diablo, Infinity, CMT/CMT ITK, Amana A.G.E., Forrest, Ridge Carbide, Tenryu, Onsrud, Oshlun, Ridgid Titanium, DeWalt Precision Trim, etc. Some of these run less than $30...I'd consider anyone of them to be an upgrade from the Irwin.

[Gene Howe]

The Irwin Marathon and Sprint blades are fairly low quality IMHO....noise is only one of their many issues. The only decent Irwin blade I've encountered is the Irwin Woodworker series made in Germany by Leitz, but unfortunately they discontinued those. Honestly, I'd return it for another brand....Freud/Freud Diablo, Infinity, CMT/CMT ITK, Amana A.G.E., Forrest, Ridge Carbide, Tenryu, Onsrud, Oshlun, Ridgid Titanium, DeWalt Precision Trim, etc. Some of these run less than $30...I'd consider anyone of them to be an upgrade from the Irwin.

+1. Nuff said.

[Carl Beckett]

Another consideration is the drive belt. I had a contractors saw once where I swapped out the belt for a link belt drive. It made a big difference in noise and vibration. Ran much more smoothly and quieter after the belt upgrade.

[Bob Hampton]

thanks guys for all the advice..its all good ...i spent the day trying different ideas but no joy at all ..next is another blade ...i did change the belt a few months ago to a link belt and did make a big difference ..run almost vibration free ..other then this blade whine it does a fine job for me .
again thanks for all the good advice
Bob

[Tom Walz]

I just talked to Tony Pense of Superior Saw in Tacoma Washington.

He pointed out a couple things about screaming saws. The first thing he suggested was making sure that the expansion holes are plugged. On better saws they use copper plugs or epoxy, as mentioned above, for less expensive saws.

He said that they can sometimes change the grind on the tips and improve the situation. He also pointed out that it is a matter of harmonics so that changing the tension in the saw plate can help with the screaming or solve the problem entirely.

He has seen situations where the saw blade will scream on one machine but not on any others. This brought up the concept that you might want to trade your blade with another woodworker.

You might be able to exchange it wherever you bought it. There are tool suppliers that have a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

Somehow this is really bothering me. Screaming blades can be really horrible. If you can't get it solved any other way, then send me a PM and I'll send you a Popular Tools saw blade free. Write an online review of it and we’ll call it a promotional item.

Tom

[David Hostetler]

FWIW, not that it will solve your problem now, but if / when you decide to replace the blade, try a Freud Diablo blade. The Irwin blades are LOUD in my experience. For example I had an Irwin Marathon 40T in my circ saw that screamed like a banshee, I replaced it with a Diablo 40T and it quieted down. At least within reason. All blades make noise, some are just louder than others, some like the Irwins are louder than a Nugent concert...

[Bob Wingard]

If depth of cut is not a big issue, I remember seeing someone marketing a large diameter blade stabilizer hat had a groove machined into the face where it contacts the blade, and the groove has an O-ring set into it.

[glenn bradley]

What Tom W said :D

[Steve Baumgartner]

My backup blade that I use when the main one is out for sharpening screams a deafening ringing whine. I have found that a blade stabilizer (no need for O ring or other fancy stuff, just the flat plate kind) gets it back to normal blade noise.

[Thom Porterfield]

I purchased some negative hook angle blades from Western Tool Supply, and they are for sale. I tried them both in my cabinet saw and my SMS, and they are so loud, even ear muffs are insufficient.

Diablo blades, and the one Leitz blade I own are acceptable.

And they cut better.

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Although I haven't tried it, I've seen recommendations that a blade stiffener quiets scream.

Ruperto

[scott spencer]

I think a blade stiffener would be sending good money after bad....you'll still have a questionable blade on your hands.

[Tom Walz]

If it is purely a harmonic issue a blade stiffener should change the harmonics of the system and thus change the noise.

Depends on how well you like that blade and if you want to spend more money.

So, basically, +1 on the last two posts.

[Tom Hassad]

I wish I got into this sooner as I have two questions. Has anyone tried the tenryu silencer saw blades. They are supposed to cut down on noise but I could not find any quantitative data to support the claim.

Second, I have read in other threads that for contractor saws that are 2 hp or less, we should be using thinner kerfed blades. This was news to me because the manufacturer never mentioned that and I think this advice is relatively new. I have a full 1/8 inch kerfed combination freud diablo blade. I wonder if I could experience noise reduction with a thinner blade with noise reduction technology. On the other hand, before I plunk down $70 + dollars I would not like to experiment to find that out.

You will see from other posts I have made I am concerned about noise because I live in a suburb. I envy you folks who have plenty of space separating you from your neighbors.

[scott spencer]

Tom - I've tried several Tenryu blades and find them to be excellent in general (depending on the specific line and model), but have not tried the specific "silencer" blade you mentioned.

I was under the impression that all Diablo blades were thin kerf...roughly 3/32" for a 10" blade. Many of the Freud Industrial blades are 1/8" full kerf. The TK blades in general take less wood, so are easier to spin, plus make less saw dust and tend to be slightly quieter but I doubt the noise difference is substantial. A TS in general is much quieter than a planer. Like you, I also live in a suburban neighborhood...I'm considerate to not make noise early in the morning (~ 9am or later) or late at night, but beyond that I just do what I need to do, and have never gotten a complaint...you've got a right to live your life too!

[Bob Wingard]

I think a blade stiffener would be sending good money after bad....you'll still have a questionable blade on your hands.

There ya' go THINKING again ... he's got what he's got ... and he's trying to make it better ... of course, a $200 blade would be a better choice, but then so would an Altendorf slider ... but then, that would be taking this thread off-topic, wouldn't it ???

[scott spencer]

There ya' go THINKING again ... he's got what he's got ... and he's trying to make it better ... of course, a $200 blade would be a better choice, but then so would an Altendorf slider ... but then, that would be taking this thread off-topic, wouldn't it ???

$20 for a silencer to put on a lousy blade, or $30 for a better blade....I know which choice I'd make! ;)

[Bob Wingard]

$20 for a silencer to put on a lousy blade, or $30 for a better blade....I know which choice I'd make! ;)

So ... you REALLY think that silencer is married to only one blade ??? If it helps one, it can help many ... if it helps to a satisfactory degree, it would mean a savings of $20+ PER BLADE as purchased over your LIFETIME. Are you by any chance a politician, or merely lacking in math skills ???


FROM : HARTVILLE TOOL WEBSITE : Forrest blades cut exceptionally well on their own, but the addition of a single Stiffener on the outside of any blade will further enhance their quietness and cutting performance. They virtually eliminate the shrieking ring and minute cut marks caused by blade movement and vibration.

If it will "HELP" a $140 blade run better AND is recommended by it's manufacturer, I think I'd gamble that it would also "HELP" my bargain blade, which is exactly what the original post was asking for ... HELP IN QUIETING A BLADE ... NOT ... CRITICIZE MY TOOLS AND HELP ME BUY A BLADE THAT DOESN'T RING

[scott spencer]

Bob - What ever stance you prefer to take is fine with me, but I'm of the belief that blade stiffeners and silencers make no difference in the vast majority of circumstances, and are typically a bandaid for bigger issues in the situations where they do make a difference. Of course manufactures recommend them...there's big profit in them. Similarly, Jiffy Lube always has several recommendations for my car's service, but I typically decline.

I was also of the belief that the blade was new, so could likely be returned without issue.

[Tom Hassad]

Wow - I posted a comment earlier and I cannot find it.

I asked if anyone used the Tenryu silencer blades - they claim to be quiet but don't give any data. Do these blades do the job? Also thought someone said to use thinner kerfed blades on contractor saws - do thinner kerfed blades also cut down on noise?

[Tom Walz]

The Tenryu blades do work. Maybe the best independent data on this was by Steve Bergerson of Western Saw who showed that saw blade design could reduce noise by about 10 decibels.

In the original case here it was a frequency issue where there was a match between the machine and the blade. That is a different issue.

The Bergerson study was more about whistling which is air passing over expansion slots.

One reason blades make noise is that the teeth are ground differently so that some stick out farther than others. If you take a straight, flat top tip blade some blades will have side clearance variance on 0.003” or so. I have seen them up to 0.010” but not lately.

Tenryu generally has a grinding variance of 0.0005” or less.

Total runout (covering plate flatness and tip geometry as well as machine condition) can also contribute to noise although this is usually addressed as a cut quality issue.

[Bob Wingard]

'm of the belief that blade stiffeners and silencers make no difference in the vast majority of circumstances, and are typically a bandaid for bigger issues in the situations where they do make a difference.
.

So ... you BELIEVE that stiffeners are of no use in the VAST MAJORITY of "CIRCUMSTANCES" Have you actually TRIED or OBSERVED the use of blade stiffeners in a VAST MAJORITY of applications ??? How many have you actually observed ... on how many blades ... and on how many saws ??? There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between a BANDAID and a CURE !!! If the addition of a stiffener works, it has CURED the problem ... in what way would you consider that a BANDAID ???

[Rod Sheridan]

Bob, I would also consider it as a bandaid, not because it may not work, but because it's addressing the symptom, not the problem.

If the problem is inadequate plate stiffness, or improper plate tensioning, that's the problem, the symptom can be vibration.

I'd rather have the problem solved, than removing the sympton.............Regards, Rod.

[Bob Wingard]

I guess we differ on the purpose and definition of BANDAID ... I would consider it to be a short term, disposable solution to a temporary problem ... blade stiffeners, on the other hand are permanent, non-wear items that in and of themselves become tools to be installed and used as needed. I don't think one would remove a used BANDAID and put it on the shelf waiting for another cut to occur so they can use it again.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, some of the premiere blade manufacturers and tool sellers highly recommend the use of stiffeners. While it is true that they make money off of these items, woodworkers in general are frugal and intelligent enough to see through gimmicks, and these things continue to sell through the years. Do they make massive improvements on every blade ?? NOPE .. but they make SOME improvement on almost every blade, and since it takes all of about a second or two to drop one on the arbor, why not use one unless it causes a difficulty such as reducing depth of cut ???