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dennis thompson
07-10-2011, 9:14 AM
As some of you know I've been frustrated in trying to get Honda Manufacturing to tell me their recommended mileage for various maintenance items, ex. when to change the transmission fluid. The dealer recommends the trans fluid be changed at 15,000, 30,000, 45,000,75,000,90,000,135,000 & 150,000 miles or once a year. I went to Edmunds & they provide a detailed maintenance schedule for my car, which they say is the manufacturers recommended schedule & it says to change the trans fluid at 120,000 miles! Quite a difference. As I said in my earlier post I'm leary of the dealer recommendations & Edmunds seems to confirm my position.
The manufacturer also recommends an oil change every 7,500 miles but only change the oil filter every 20,000 miles, very curious. (I plan to continue changing my oil & filter every 3,000 miles)
So what would you do?
Dennis

Ken Fitzgerald
07-10-2011, 9:30 AM
Do you have an owner's manual for this car? If not, go to the dealer and order a manufacturer's owners manual. You will have to buy it.

I will check my Honda Pilot's owner's manual for transmission oil change. I will tell you this. Transmission oil changes are cheaper than transmissions. If you have never owned a Honda or Toyota before, you will find they insist that the owner have regular maintenance performed on a car. I had an '86 4-Runner that lasted a long while. I drove that little 2.2 liter 22RE engined thing into elk camp each year. Out of curiosity I checked....$4,000 for a new automatic transmission for that vehicle was my dealer quote.

I change oil and filter every 3,000 miles.

I don't trust most of the aftermarket manuals like Peterson's, Edmunds etc. In the late '60s I had some respect for those after market manuals as they had some pretty accurate and detailed information in them. After the '70s however, I feel most of them became too generic and most of the information lacked in detail and accuracy.

Joe Pelonio
07-10-2011, 9:44 AM
I had a rather nasty dispute with a Jeep dealer over the maintenance schedule and warranty, and ended up taking it to Chrysler Corporation because they were insisting I needed work that was not specified in the manual. I won and got a refund for work they did that was not required. The owner's manual maintenance schedule should be followed for at least the first 100k miles. Even after the warranty is up, there could be a recall or "secret warranty" that still requires that the maintenance schedule to be followed. For example, we had a 1994 4Runner that blew a head gasket at 98,000 miles. There were many of the same with these engines so Toyota had agreed to do them free up to 100,000 miles, but you still had to show that the coolant had been tested/changed according to the schedule to get it done as part of the secret recall.

dennis thompson
07-10-2011, 11:23 AM
Do you have an owner's manual for this car? If not, go to the dealer and order a manufacturer's owners manual. You will have to buy it.

I will check my Honda Pilot's owner's manual for transmission oil change. I will tell you this. Transmission oil changes are cheaper than transmissions. If you have never owned a Honda or Toyota before, you will find they insist that the owner have regular maintenance performed on a car. I had an '86 4-Runner that lasted a long while. I drove that little 2.2 liter 22RE engined thing into elk camp each year. Out of curiosity I checked....$4,000 for a new automatic transmission for that vehicle was my dealer quote.

I change oil and filter every 3,000 miles.

I don't trust most of the aftermarket manuals like Peterson's, Edmunds etc. In the late '60s I had some respect for those after market manuals as they had some pretty accurate and detailed information in them. After the '70s however, I feel most of them became to generic and most of the information lacked in detail and accuracy.

Ken
As I said in my question, Edmunds says their recommendations (which are very detailed) come from the manufacturer. I can't see why Edmunds would lie. Anyway I sent Edmunds an email asking them to confirm that their maintenance recommendations are per the manufacturer.
I bought the car new & have the owners manual. Nowhere in the manual does it give mileage for oil changes, trans fluid changes, etc.
Dennis

Ken Fitzgerald
07-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Dennis,

Why ask for advice if you have decided the Edmunds manual is correct?

The schedule you quoted isn,t what my Honda Pilot owner's manual says.

Your definition of "specific" information and mine are obviously different. Edmunds is in the business of selling manuals. I will trust the manufacturers manual over an aftermarket manual because in a warrantee situation, I can hold a manufacturer responsible if I have been following their recommended maintenance schedule. You won't be able to hold Edmunds responsible for anything.

Specifically what year and make Honda car do you own? I have yet to see any car manufacturer fail to have a maintenance schedule in the owners manual. Tell me what you have so I can research it.

Phil Thien
07-10-2011, 1:02 PM
I have yet to see any car manufacturer fail to have a maintenance schedule in the owners manual. Tell me what you have so I can research it.

Ken, my Honda Odyssey 2010 manual says the indicator on the dash will tell me when it is time for an oil change. It just seems to be a countdown odometer that wants an oil change at 6000 miles. But I think that is just because the dealer sets it for that.

I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturers start deferring to dealers on maintenance schedules, as that seems to be the dealers bread and butter. The dealer makes some bucks on selling the car. They make decent bucks doing repair. But they make a ton of money doing oil change and tire rotations and transmission fluid changes. That stuff can be done by guys with little training and they seem to charge a prince's ransom for it.

I wish the car was here or I could check the manual for a maintenance schedule. Perhaps there is more in there than I recall.

dennis thompson
07-10-2011, 1:14 PM
Dennis,

Why ask for advice if you have decided the Edmunds manual is correct?

The schedule you quoted isn,t what my Honda Pilot owner's manual says.

Your definition of "specific" information and mine are obviously different. Edmunds is in the business of selling manuals. I will trust the manufacturers manual over an aftermarket manual because in a warrantee situation, I can hold a manufacturer responsible if I have been following their recommended maintenance schedule. You won't be able to hold Edmunds responsible for anything.

Specifically what year and make Honda car do you own? I have yet to see any car manufacturer fail to have a maintenance schedule in the owners manual. Tell me what you have so I can research it.
Ken
As my original question states the differences between Edmunds & the Dealer recommendations are what's confusing me. Nowhere do I say that Edmunds is necessarily correct, as I said, I've emailed Edmunds to confirm they are giving the mfgr recommendations.
The Edmunds info I got was over the internet & free I didn't have to pay for it, so Edmunds isn't selling me anything.
My car is a 2009 Honda Odyssey, I've been thru the owners manual a couple of times & can't find the info. It's over 400 pages so I guess I could have missed it.I'll be happy if you can find it.
I also called Honda & they wouldn't give me mileage info ,they just said to read the computer messages as the car gave them to me.
Maybe you could take a look at the Edmunds info & see if it agrees with your Pilot owners manual info.
Dennis

Ken Fitzgerald
07-10-2011, 1:17 PM
Phil,

I just did a little research and it's interesting. For a 2005 Honda Pilot (which I drive), there is a maintenance schedule chart in the owners manual. For a 2006, which appears to be the first year the maintenance "reminder" came into being, the owner's manual, there is a chart of sorts but you have to read the maintenance section really closely to get mileage information for maintenance items and the mileage quoted appear to be what was for driving under severe conditions.

Now I am going back to reread the 2006 manual and see if it there mileage spelled out for oil changes. It's interesting.

I will apologize now to Dennis....there is a chart of sorts but it's not a readily clear as previous years were.

More research.


The Honda User's specific forums appear to be a wealth of information. This is the first time I have looked for them.

Ken Fitzgerald
07-10-2011, 1:34 PM
Phil,

Reading the 2006 Honda Pilot manual, which has the "maintenance indicator" the oil change, transmission oil, etc. maintenance frequency are now controlled by the on-board computer within the vehicle. The on-board computer continuously monitors the driving conditions of the vehicle and recommends maintenance frequency based on the type of usage the vehicle is experiencing.

Now that is good in some ways. Say I live in Minnesota which is relatively flat and cool....relatively. My engine, transmission, rear differential etc won't experience the same conditions those components would if I was driving in the mountains of Idaho where I live.

Somebody driving in stop and go urban traffic will stress an engine or transmission more than me driving the same vehicle in a cool, flat highway condition like MN, IL, WI, MI, etc.

My problem with that I don't want to be on vacation like I was last week in the middle of a 4500 mile round trip and find out my oil or transmission fluid needs replacement and I am in a strange area. What I actually did was change oil before I left.

It turns out you can read the requirements on the maintenance indicator on the car and the mileage left is indicated as a % remaining before maintenance is required.

So a "maintenance indicator" is good in some ways but being over 60, I prefer a clearly suggested chart in the owners manual.

My apologies Dennis, there is a chart but the mileage isn't stated.

Joe Angrisani
07-10-2011, 1:47 PM
I also called Honda & they wouldn't give me mileage info ,they just said to read the computer messages as the car gave them to me....

There's your answer. It's not mileage-based. It's load-based. Ken beat me to it.

The VWs and Audis have been using that type of system back to about 2000 (I think BMW had a primitive version back in the 80's, but I didn't work on Bmers). I can even go into the Audis with my scan tool and set the "warning level point" or whatever they call it on some of the counters.

I wouldn't care two cents about what Edmonds thinks. They have nothing to lose in putting anything out there for the shadetrees, and all the internet advertising to gain. I'm sure there's a disclaimer on their site somewhere.

Phil Thien
07-10-2011, 2:25 PM
My problem with that I don't want to be on vacation like I was last week in the middle of a 4500 mile round trip and find out my oil or transmission fluid needs replacement and I am in a strange area. What I actually did was change oil before I left.


I couldn't agree more.

The system in my Odyssey reminds me a lot of the "Service" idiot light on some cars (that people just taped over with black electrical tape).

I also have some question about how "load-based" my Honda's system is. Perhaps on higher-end cars like Joe is accustomed to working on. But I'm 95% certain that on my car, it just tells me it needs an oil change every 6,000 miles. We've had some periods where we did a TON of highway miles and it wanted the change at 6,000 miles. We had other periods where we did mostly 1-2 mile trips, and (you guessed it), 6,000 miles.

dennis thompson
07-10-2011, 2:27 PM
There's your answer. It's not mileage-based. It's load-based. Ken beat me to it.

The VWs and Audis have been using that type of system back to about 2000 (I think BMW had a primitive version back in the 80's, but I didn't work on Bmers). I can even go into the Audis with my scan tool and set the "warning level point" or whatever they call it on some of the counters.

I wouldn't care two cents about what Edmonds thinks. They have nothing to lose in putting anything out there for the shadetrees, and all the internet advertising to gain. I'm sure there's a disclaimer on their site somewhere.
Joe
Why would Edmunds put out info, say it's per the mfgr's recs, if it wasn't? They do have a reputation to protect & I think they're seen as a reliable source for info on cars. Frankly I feel the dealer , who has a lot to gain by recommending more frequent services, is much more likely to mislead someone.
Dennis

Ken Fitzgerald
07-10-2011, 3:14 PM
Dennis,

Think about this......if Honda won't give you, a customer the "manufacturer's specs" how would Edmunds get it?....Why would Honda release "manufacturer's specifications" to Edmunds and not a customer who bought a car from them? If Edmunds is in competition with Honda, why would Honda give that information to Edmunds?

If you choose to trust Edmunds over Honda, in a warranty issue, you will not have legal recourse should a warranty situation arise. There are disclaimers in every one of those aftermarket manuals. Those disclaimers release the aftermarket manual printers from liability and you could get stuck for the price of a major repair.

The maintenance frequency is currently and constantly being calculated by the on-board computer in your car. It is based on the condition under which you, as an individual, drive your individual car.

Do what you want. It's your car......

Jerry Bruette
07-10-2011, 3:37 PM
I find Honda's maintenance minder to be a little frustrating. Sometimes the LOML will get the oil changed when the % is low but before the alert codes come on. Then the service station resets the maintenance minder and I never get to see which maintenance alerts are due. I'm sure that after 62,000 miles I should have changed more then the oil and filters.

Jerry

Joe Pelonio
07-10-2011, 4:48 PM
perhaps just their way of ensuring that you cannot do your own maintenance, but have to take it to the dealer. is there an inexpensive device like a code reader that allows people to reset after the work is done?

Ken Fitzgerald
07-10-2011, 5:17 PM
Joe.....according to the 2006 Honda Pilot manual, you use the reset button for the trip odometer.....just like resetting the trip odometer.

Jeff Monson
07-10-2011, 8:43 PM
Dennis, given the track record on the previous body style Odyssey transmissions, I'd suggest you change the fluid at maybe 50k, now your body style is a different transmission...but who knows if there will be problems down the road. Its a simple drain and fill prodecure, no filter to replace. For the minimal cost, take it for what its worth.

Honda has ben infamous for years with the "maint. required light", from the early years on, this has been a mileage based light. It will change colors and hit red after 7500 miles. The problem is, who know's when it was reset? Todays oil change indicators on most vehicles are more sophisticated, there is a ton of information it processes, (average speed, average rpm, coolant temp. etc. etc.) based on all this information, it comes up with a determination on when the oil should be changed. There again, it should be reset every time the oil is changed....problem is some systems take a little longer or require a different procedure, alot of times they dont get reset. IMO, todays computers are pretty accurate on when the oil should be changed. I know in my climate, summer driving for example my oil life monitor is usally around 35% after 7,000 miles of driving. In the winter months its usaully below 10% after the same mileage.

In Dennis's defense, I looked in my resources for recemmonded maint. for his van and it was very sketchy. Maybe Honda is changing the way they recemmond the services? Maybe there is too much liability when there is a failure??

Joe Angrisani
07-10-2011, 8:45 PM
Joe.. Why would Edmunds put out info, say it's per the mfgr's recs, if it wasn't?

As I said. To sell internet advertising.


They do have a reputation to protect & I think they're seen as a reliable source for info on cars.

They have NO reputation, and certainly not as a reliable source, with any shop or shop owner I've ever known. None. Zero. Zilch.


Frankly I feel the dealer , who has a lot to gain by recommending more frequent services, is much more likely to mislead someone.

You are comparing the frying pan to the fire. Keep in mind, for all intents and purposes, the manufacturer is separate from the dealer service network. The dealer is not establishing the rules (the service intervals). The manufacturer does.



Joe.....according to the 2006 Honda Pilot manual, you use the reset button for the trip odometer.....just like resetting the trip odometer.

Sounds like they're making it easier for people to keep doing they're own work. No doubt about it: the German manufacturers don't. :)

Dave Lehnert
07-10-2011, 10:11 PM
I know little about working on cars but try to educate myself so I don't get hooked in the shop.

First, I would go by what the owners manual says. They built the car, they should know whats best.
Second, If the owners manual does not have the info I would check with my dealers service department. If I felt they were misleading me, I would check with one or two other dealers and see if I get the same answer. It's possible that what were the original recommendations has changed. The dealer would have that info first.