Tormek newbie help, please.

[Brian W Evans]

I just bought a Tormek T-7 and am trying it out on some borg chisels before I try it out on the good tools. The first chisel seemed to go fine, but the second and third chisels had the problem you see in the picture.

I'm fairly confident I have the machine set up correctly, that I'm applying even pressure and moving the chisel back and forth across the stone evenly.

The only thing I can think of is that the stone has become worn on one side more than the other - could this happen after two chisels? If so, do you find you need to true the stone after one or two tools or did I do something wrong?

Thanks.

[Gary Hodgin]

Brian,
Although I have an older model and don't consider myself any thing close to an expert, it looks like you got to more clamping pressure on one side of the jig. Looking at it from the view of the picture, the right clamp seems to screwed in more than the left. This can cause the chisel to be out of square. Assuming you're wanting a hollow bevel on the existing bevel, it looks like you're grinding too close to the end for you to get a nice hollow grind.

Having said that, the stone could also be uneven. You might want to try the truing tool but I would only do that after I'm convinced it was "not" a problem with jigging. The clamping pressure must be pretty much equal for the chisel to be square to stone.

[Tim Put]

If the original bevel is less than square and even, that line shouldn't be straight! Give the edge a quick check for straightness, and squareness (though squareness is not that important, except in shoulder planes and a few other speciality tools), if it's good, then it's good whether or not the line on the bevel looks nice.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi Brian,

if the edge is square (what it seems to be), there is no issue. By using the SE 76 jig you have, it's important to make sure that the flat side of the chisel is clamped down all over the width of the chisel equally. On the pic it seems that you did the clamping only by using the right screw with the effect that the right edge of the chisel is clamped down with some more pressure than the left one. But as mentioned already, if the edge is square all is ok.

The truing of the stone is very important. With your T 7 you've got the diamond truing jig. Use it! If you true up the stone every time before you begin to sharpen, one slight go with the truing jig is enough and the stone will stay true.

Klaus

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks for the replies.

I adjusted the jig so that the two faces of the clamping mechanism were more or less parallel. I also made sure that the back of the chisel, which I had already flattened, was flat on the face of the jig and that the edge of the chisel was tight up against the registration edge of the jig. I got the same result, though.

I will do some more experiments today including truing the wheel and let you know how it turns out.

[John Coloccia]

Is the edge straight and square? That's the only thing that matters.

[Jason Coen]

I adjusted the jig so that the two faces of the clamping mechanism were more or less parallel. I also made sure that the back of the chisel, which I had already flattened, was flat on the face of the jig and that the edge of the chisel was tight up against the registration edge of the jig. I got the same result, though.


Once the chisel is set up as you've described and you still get a grind that appears to be out of square, then either the stone is out of true or the clamping pressure is not equal. Even though the clamping bars may appear parallel, I can almost guarantee that the pressure from the clamping bar is not equal across the chisel.

Let's assume that the wheel has been trued and you get an out of square grind on your initial attempt. Without removing the tool from the jig, adjust the clamping pressure by tightening or loosening the clamping knobs to bring the edge back to square. From the picture you posted, I would loosen the knob on the short point side of the out of square grind and tighten the knob on the long point side of the out of square grind. Note that these are very slight adjustments. Adjust and test until you get a square edge.

That said, the only thing that matters is that the edge be straight and square to the sides. If, after grinding, you find this to be the case, you're done no matter how the bevel looks. Further grindings will bring the appearance of the bevel back to square.

[Russell Sansom]

I DO consider myself a lightweight Tormek expert after many years of use.
The responsibility to get the blade square to the stone is yours, not the machine's. This is mentioned almost in passing in all that Tormek literature, but should have a chapter of its own to give it the proper emphasis. Each chisel presents a unique clamping challenge.

1) I don't know any way to do a quick pass with the truing tool. I have motorized mine and it still takes several minutes.
2) The stone will dish-in-reverse after a couple chisels. Is that a "bulge?" But it doesn't generally wear at a significant slant. I can get 4 or 5 chisels out of one truing before the hollow on the chisel becomes too deep at the center of the chisel and the stone needs to be trued again. For A-2 steel I'm lucky to get 2 sharpenings, depending on how much A-2 has to be removed.
3) You have to square a chisel through trial-and-error on the running stone. PITA, but that's the reality. First, you have to find a way to measure squareness without removing the chisel or disturbing its setting. I use a 4" square and adjust the ruler part so it can slip down the side of the chisel between the arms of the Tormek chisel holding jig.

There are two methods for squaring the edge.
The less aggressive is to change clamping pressure with the two knobs. I suggest you take one of those awful BORG chisels and see if you can move the "squareness" around by using this method and seeing the effect. If everything else is ok, you should be able to adjust the chisel from left to right of square just by loosening one and tightening the other. To the naked eye, the chisel will appear to be square in the jig, so you have to do this part by grinding and assessing the results. A very slight release of one and tightening of the other can make for a very significant change. If one knob is as tight as you can make it and the other knob is as loose as you dare make it and the leading edge still isn't square to the stone, that's the signal to move on to the more aggressive adjustment...

The second method is to slant the (let's call it ) tool rest rod. This is simple enough. On the vertical tool rest supports rods, release the clamp on the rod with the adjustment screw. Then advance or retract the adjustment screw a small amount...say a half turn to start. If you've retracted the screw you'll have to physically PUSH the rod down. Advancing the screw will force that rod upward, tilting the whole affair to the right. Tighten the clamping knob to keep the tool rest in this new position.
Reassess squareness by making a few significant passes with the tool on the stone and readjust.

You might have to warp the tool rest quite a bit. I've never needed anywhere near so much force that it seemed the tool rest was at risk of snapping the welds but it is surprising sometimes how much slant is necessary.

So, that is that. I find that the same slanted tool rest will work for 2 identical plane irons, so I do them in batches. As I said in the beginning, chisels are so individualized, that every chisel wants its own setup. Take a deep breath, face this reality, and you are on you way to a happy relationship. I have been perfectly happy since I figured all this out. I suspect Tormek doesn't share this reality with us because someone in their organization thinks it would be bad marketing.

And...

While I find myself agreeing with Jon, above, most of the time, I don't unconditionally agree with this one:


Is the edge straight and square? That's the only thing that matters.

The only way to get a straight, square leading edge and still have an off-square trailing edge is if the front and the back faces of the chisel are not parallel, left to right. The Tormek toolrest/clamp and wheel assume the two are parallel because the chisel is registered against its "front" face but the leading edge of the wedge is on the "back" face. If you see what I mean. It's just like a surface grinder or a mill. This wasn't readily apparent to me until I bought a set of NOS Swan chisels and found that 4 out of 5 wouldn't square up no matter what I did.

And, in my own case I use the gorgeous Tormek hollow to hand-register the chisels on my water stones for honing. If this hollow is compromised the hand-registration is all the harder.

This is a bit of a long post, but I feel for the Tormek owners who haven't seen this particular light yet and I'd like to bring them along. I have been through hundreds of sharpenings with my Tormek and the results have been outstanding with a capital "O." When I read about people enraged by their Tormeks I always wish I could just spend ten minutes with them. Hopefully, this lengthy note will serve that purpose.

[Tim Put]

Your advice is based on the old tormek jig. The new jig (the one in the OPs picture) registers off the working side of the chisel. Further, there is nothing wrong with a crowned wheel so long as it is still round. Lastly, if you can't take a quick pass with the truing tool, than you are taking too heavy a pass. I did remove some of the slop on my truing tool with a paper shim, which helps when one wants to take a very shallow pass.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Your advice is based on the old tormek jig. The new jig (the one in the OPs picture) registers off the working side of the chisel. Further, there is nothing wrong with a crowned wheel so long as it is still round. Lastly, if you can't take a quick pass with the truing tool, than you are taking too heavy a pass. I did remove some of the slop on my truing tool with a paper shim, which helps when one wants to take a very shallow pass.

+1 what he said!

The old Tormek jig is a piece of junk to my eyes since it is like gambling to get the blade square. The newer SE 76 jig is in another class, a world of difference. Though it isn't perfect neither. It may be an individual issue of mine that the side bar which is designed to make sure the squareness is slightly out of square. It's useless. So I built another jig which is used together with the SE 76. Since 3 years I have it in use now and never had one more chisel or plane blade out of square.

It can be used for western blades...

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as well as for Japanese blades

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Later on I improved it by adding a side fence for the clamping of narrow blades.

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201232

Klaus

[tico vogt]

Klaus,

What determines for you how high above the stone you set the tool rest rod? David Charlesworth says he always uses the distance of 3/8". I am at a loss to understand why a certain distance is appropriate.

I'm glad to hear you say that the original Tormek, which I own, is junk. I feared that was the case, and, actually my own frustrations with the machine bear that out, but it's nice to hear somebody confirm it!

Vogt Toolworks

[Russell Sansom]

Tico,

I'm glad to hear you say that the original Tormek, which I own, is junk

THAT's what I was trying to address. I've used the Tormek for many years and once having overcome its quirks, I've been very happy with it. I've sharpened hundreds of chisels and plane irons and was satisfied 99% of the time. I tried to outline what people who think it's junk need to do for it to work. Also, I think Klaus was talking about the jig, not the Tormek itself. My advice for achieving squareness applies to any jig. You're just one or two ideas away from turning a piece of junk into one of the best grinders you could hope for!

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Klaus,

What determines for you how high above the stone you set the tool rest rod? David Charlesworth says he always uses the distance of 3/8". I am at a loss to understand why a certain distance is appropriate.

I'm glad to hear you say that the original Tormek, which I own, is junk. I feared that was the case, and, actually my own frustrations with the machine bear that out, but it's nice to hear somebody confirm it!

Vogt Toolworks

Tico,

I really didn't want to say that the Tormek is junk in my eyes! I was referring only on the older type of blade clamping jig. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

In the opposite: I like the Tormek and think that it does a great job on sharpening if the blade is ground once in the correct shape.

To your question: if the blades are clamped with constant overhang in the jig, the blade angle will be adjusted by the distance between the universal support and the stone. I followed the hint of Tormek to make some distance pieces out of scrap to get always the same distance and therefore the same blade angle. I haven't to adjust the angle every time new and will get repeatable results.

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It works great.

Klaus

[tico vogt]

Klaus, that make a whole lot of sense. Your projection from the edge of the blade or chisel is established in the first jig you showed and, used in tandem with your distance pieces, you get the repeatable angles. Excellent.

Russell, thanks also for your comments. Think I'll gives this another go around.

[John Coloccia]

I must admit that the only way I ever set the bevel is by eye. I can also tell if it's straight by noticing if the bevel is touching on both sides, or if there's a microbevel if the gap is even. I suspect that most people without machinist backgrounds don't realize just how accurate your eyeball can be. Anyhow, I would encourage people to practice lining up by eye as well as using the jig. At some point, you may find yourself taking the eyeballed blade to the jig and discovering its dead nuts.

[Brian W Evans]

So, I trued the wheel. It apparently needed it since there was a good deal of difference in the amount of material removed at various places across the stone. A straightedge now shows a dead flat surface from edge to edge. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to solve the problem.

Next, I checked the sides of my borg chisels to see if they were flat and square to the cutting edge. Shockingly ;), they were not flat - one side of each chisel was slightly concave and the other slightly convex. I don't think this was the entire cause of the problem, though, because they were only slightly out of flat.

Finally, I tried one of my better chisels - a blue Marples that does have flat edges that are square to the cutting edge. Same problem here as with the borg chisels - the new bevel is not square to the sides. The cutting edge is still square, but only because I didn't grind away enough to change its shape yet. The borg chisel I was experimenting on no longer has a cutting edge that is even close to square to the edge.

On a whim, I placed a straightedge on the universal support. From the part of the support that mounts to the machine to the outside end of the support (away from the machine), there appears to be about a 3/64" downward bend. See the photo below. The direction of the bend matches the direction of the curve in the bevel. At first I thought the problem was solved, but wouldn't truing the wheel make the shape of the wheel match the slant of the bar and cancel out any problems?

I'm going to continue experimenting, but any suggestions would be most welcome. On a positive note, this doesn't really affect the knife sharpening jig so at least LOML is happy.

201285

[Greg Wease]

I have the older Tormek/jig and gave up long ago trying to rely on the machine for proper alignment. (I think Klaus has an elegant solution which I will copy soon.) I don't have that machinist's eye so I always draw a line with a narrow Sharpie near the edge and perpendicular to the side of the blade. As I grind the bevel I adjust the angle of the blade in the jig until the grind is parallel to the marked line. Some angular adjustment is usually required.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi Brian,

the universal support should be straight for sure, I'd go to get a new one by guarantee. If that causes however the out of square edge is hard to imagine since the truing diamond went on the same US. The surface of the stone should be now 100% parallel to the universal support. That's normally enough to create square edges.

Did you check your SE 76? Perhaps it has the same issue which mine has. The side bar is possibly out of square. The pic doesn't show it that clear. If you look closely you will see that the sqare has contact with the toe of the blade, at the rear end there is a gap of about 0.5 mm between blade and square. That's enough that one never will get a sqare edge by using the side bar.

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Hope it helps.
Klaus

[David Keller NC]

Brian - While I would return the universal guide rod if you've recently bought this Tormek, there is a very, very simple way to correct for slight misalignments in the chisel jig, support rod, stone face, etc...., and doesn't depend on measurements.

Place your chisel in the jig at the appropriate distance to achieve the bevel angle that you want. Place the jig onto the rod, but don't turn on the machine. With light hand pressure, move the chisel bevel side to side over the stone 2 or 3 times. Now look at the bevel. The horizontal scratches this method produces will be very obvious against the scratches that are parallel with the chisel's shank.

To get a straight bevel, these horizontal scratches need to be 90 degrees to the chisel shank. If not, slightly loosen one of the screws on the jig and lightlytap the appropriate side of the chisel to slightly skew it in the jig. Repeat the above until you're satisfied that your alignment is good. By the way - this is also an excellent method to ensure that you are grinding pretty much dead on to the existing bevel (the horizontal scratches need to be in the center of the bevel, not on the cutting edge or the arris between the chisel bevel and the flat). This is important - the Tormek isn't fast by any means, and if you "start a new bevel" every time you grind, it will not only take forever to completely replace the whole bevel so that it registers correctly on your sharpening stones, it will significantly shorten the life of your tools.

While the above my seem cumbersome, it takes a lot longer to write the explanation that it does to do the procedure - you're talking about 45 seconds to get a precise adjustment, maximum.

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks to all who replied. I called Tormek's "agent" in the U.S. and they are sending a new universal support. The service was quick, efficient, and friendly (so far).

David, I think I'll try your method - it sounds easy enough and relatively foolproof. However, I have to say that I'm disappointed to spend $600 on a Tormek and have to do that sort of adjusting. Maybe the new bar will fix the issue...

I'll post again if I make any progress on this issue.

Thanks again.

[Greg Portland]

THAT's what I was trying to address. I've used the Tormek for many years and once having overcome its quirks, I've been very happy with it. I've sharpened hundreds of chisels and plane irons and was satisfied 99% of the time. I tried to outline what people who think it's junk need to do for it to work. Also, I think Klaus was talking about the jig, not the Tormek itself. My advice for achieving squareness applies to any jig. You're just one or two ideas away from turning a piece of junk into one of the best grinders you could hope for!When people watch the flashy demos & hear from experienced users about how easy it is they think that they are going to get a razor edge on their 1st try. I have a Tormek, wet stones, and sandpaper and all 3 are capable of producing a good edge *** once you know what you're doing ***. All sharpening products require -some- level of technique to use properly.

[john brenton]

I don't use a machine, but in a jig I have found that I still can't "set it and forget it". Chisels aren't necessarily square all over, especially older ones. I have an old Marples mortise chisel and there is nothing square about it. That translates into it sitting skewed in the bed of the jig, and if I want a nice straight line I have to finesse it a little.

Could be happening here...might not. It's just a thought if you have tried everything and it's still not working out.

[Greg Portland]

I'm going to continue experimenting, but any suggestions would be most welcome. On a positive note, this doesn't really affect the knife sharpening jig so at least LOML is happy.
Step 1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tormekusers/ is a very good resource for sharpeners

Four things can result in a non-square edge:
1) Wheel isn't true
2) Chisel isn't clamped into jig properly
3) Jig bar is not tightened
4) Sharpening technique.

#1&2 can be checked with a square. With technique, you should be using the -entire- width of the stone and you should be keeping equal pressure as you move the blade back and forth. Keep the pressure straight down, not left or right. A lot of people start off by stroking the blade in only 1 direction. This will cause the results you've shown.

Play around with some Marples or other cheap chisels and work on your technique. It shouldn't take that long (2-3 attempted sharpenings) for the 'aha' moment.

One last thing: you only need to LIGHTLY strop the blade... 1-2 seconds per side and you're done. When I started I was stopping for 7-8 seconds (with a heavy touch) and that ruined the edge.

[Greg Portland]

Another thing: The universal "support" should be called the universal "guide". Push on the blade / stone interface... not down on the support, you can cause some amount of deflection.

[Russell Sansom]

Tico....
That a boy! If you aren't getting the results you want, pm me... Or post on SMC. I haven't been to a WW show to ask, but I would assume Tormek has an official sales / marketing person who might answer intimate Tormek questions.

Klaus,
I like your jig. I confess that I hadn't made this a uniform operation...I picked a height / angle-of-attack intuitively. Sometimes a particular steel at a particular slope chatters and has to be move up or down a hair.

I agree with John. I'm amazed at how good the human mechanism is at bisecting a length ( the major reason I prefer the English base-2 measurement system). But in the case of the Tormek, I like to get my next grind as close as possible to the previous grind. 1st, because I know the last grind met my standards and, 2nd, because I want to preserve as much steel as possible in the regrind.

[Tim Put]

The majority of the time: repeatable grinding matters, a squarish edge matters, a perfectly square edge does not matter. I don't care if the left corner of my chisel is 5thou further forward than the right corner.