Fire Extinguishers

[Karl Laustrup]

Just bought a couple of fire extinguishers for the garage/shop yesterday. Had never really thought about having them in the garage/shop before, but was buying one for the house and decided I should have a couple where I make saw dust and use chemicals.

Do you keep fire extinguisher[s] in your shop? How many and where are they?
What type [A, B, C, or ?] What about foam? I was looking at maybe getting one of those, but wasn't sure if it would be appropriate for the shop/garage.

I haven't mounted them yet, but was thinking one of them would get mounted right at the walk in door. Where should the other go so that, if needed, it could be grabbed and used quickly?

Thanks for your input.

[Jim Becker]

I have two extinguishers in the shop, one by the main entry door and one by the door to the "tractor garage bay". Without going out to look, I think I have the A-B-C variety. One other thing you should have is a first aid kit mounted where it's easy to get to in a hurry...and put the makings for a tourniquet in it just for good measure...

[Karl Laustrup]

I have two extinguishers in the shop, one by the main entry door and one by the door to the "tractor garage bay". Without going out to look, I think I have the A-B-C variety. One other thing you should have is a first aid kit mounted where it's easy to get to in a hurry...and put the makings for a tourniquet in it just for good measure...
Thanks for the heads up on the first aid kit, Jim.

I will get one as soon as possible and include something to use as a tourniquet.

Would that rubber stuff they use when they take blood work as a tourniquet?

[Tom Saurer]

I've got one in my shop, the ABC variety. I've also got another one in the kitchen.

When buying an extinguisher be sure to get a proper sized one. Onetime I used a smaller one and it last for a couple seconds and that was it. I would hate for someone to loss a shop/house because they ran out.

[Jim DeLaney]

...Do you keep fire extinguisher[s] in your shop? How many and where are they?...

You dammbetcha I do! I have three, located (hopefully conveniently) around the shop. They're all 10 pound Dry Chem ABC extinguishers. I also have a 5# Halon extinguisher near the electrical panel.

Additionally, I have a First Aid kit, and a wall-mounted telephone that has <B><I>huge buttons</B></I> on it - big enough to hit with an elbow, if it comes to that. The phone, btw, is one I picked up at an 'invalid supply' place, and is intended for someone who is either arthritic or sight-impaired. I've had it for about fifteen years, and it's now in its third shop...

[Mike Tempel]

As a former professional firefighter I suppose I thought that having one was second nature. Then again, now that I think about it more than a few fires I fought could have been extinguished long before I got there if an extinguisher had been available.

As for type, be sure you get the correct one. An ABC is typically the best bet for general home use. The letters represent the kinds of combustibles a particular extinguisher is capable of extinguishing. An "A" is for common household goods (wood, paper, etc.). The "B" type is basically for petroleum products (oil, gas, etc.). The "C" is for electrical fires and lastly the "D" is for metals (like magnesium). Typically an ABC is a catch all and is widely available. Halon is good for electrical and computer components as it leaves behind no powdery residue like a normal extinguisher. Halon is becoming harder to get as it has some environmental concerns.

In short, make sure you have one or three or four available. They are fairly cheap insurance and good peace of mind to have available. Like it was said before - not much worse than almost getting the fire out. Better to clean up a bunch of dry chem than bulldoze off a slab and start over.

[David Fried]

Two. Both 3 lb. ABC dry chemical. First aid kit mounted under the one in the middle of the room with the cell phone. Second one is closer to the door - I know which way I'm running!

[Lee Schierer]

I have several in my shop as well. One suggestion I have is that you should go buy another one and then go out in the back yard and start a fire with scraps from your shop. Let it get going pretty good and then use the extinguisher to put it out. It will give you a better understanding of what one can do and more importantly what it can't do. After the test you may want to go buy another one or two or a larger size and get the local Fire number posted on your phone.

Let LOML try it also.

[Wes Bischel]

You bet I do:
5# ABC in shop entrance (in basement)
5# ABC at the top of the basement stairs
3# ABC in kitchen
5# ABC in garage
one in every car

Is it obvious my father-in-law is a fire safety inspector? :D

Wes

[Karl Laustrup]

Thanks to all that have responded so far.

The ones I got are all 3# A,B,C.

Jim, where did you find a 5# Halon? I haven't seen any kind of halon for a number of years. Used to carry one in each vehicle as well as had one handy in the house. Also, where did you pick up a 10# unit? I'm one of those people that figures more is better, especially when it comes to putting out fires.

Mike, maybe you can tell me, what do the UL Rated numbers mean? I.E. the box that mine came in say "1-A:10-B:C and I did notice different numbers on other types of extinguishers.

Lee, thanks for the tip on getting the rest of the family familiar with the use of the extinguishers. I have a couple of older ones, the guage says they are good. I don't want to take the chance on being surprised by these older ones, so I think I'll give the LOML and grand daughter a lesson on the use of said equipment.

"Is it obvious my father-in-law is a fire safety inspector?" Wes, I think that's a good thing. :)

[Mike Tempel]

Karl,
Thanks for asking as this is not really common information. The "1-A, 10-BC" ratings that UL uses are derived from their testing of that particular size and type extinguisher. The numbers represent the size in square footage that that extinguisher was able to put out. For instance, a "1-A" labeled extinguisher was able during testing to put out a fire involving 1 square foot of wood, paper, etc (normal common combustibles). And the "10-BC" says that the same extinguisher (when full) was capable of extinguishing a 10 sq ft area of BC material (B-gasoline, oil, liquid flammables, and C-electrical fires). All technically gobbly gook if you ask me as you can have a hundred pound dry chem extinguisher but if not used properly it won't put out a match stick.
We train our firefighters here at work (big chemical company on the Houston Ship Channel) the easiest way to use an extinguisher and it may help you train your family. We call it PASS - the P stands for pull the pin from the extinguisher, the A is for Aim at the BASE of the fire, the first S is for squeeze the handle to deliver the extinguishing media, and the second S is for sweeping from side to side to extinguish the fire.
Hope this helps you help your family and maybe yourself as well.

[Karl Laustrup]

Thanks, Mike, for the info on the UL ratings. I did know about the PASS, but thanks for re-iterating the correct usage of a fire extinguisher.

I think I will be on the lookout for some bigger units to have in the garage as back up to the 3# ones. I'd much rather be safe than sorry. :o :)

[Larry Browning]

I have been trying to buy a good well supplied first a kit for the shop and I can't seem to find anything but those little ones in the plastic box meant for the car. I have even gone on line and can't seem to find anthing that I like. Where do I find a good first aid kit in a metal box that I can mount on the wall?

Thanks,

[Karl Laustrup]

Larry, did you do a Google search? I found this site and they have a first aid kit for home shops. Appears pretty complete for $31.00. I think I'll look around a bit more, but just may end up getting this one.

I don't think posting this URL will be a violation as it does pertain to and provides a link to a question pertaining to this thread. If deemed inappropriate, moderator[s] please remove it.

http://www.first-aid-product.com/consumer/hs840.htm .

There were other sites on Google upon doing a search for "first aid supply".

[Mike Tempel]

I made up a first aid kit from garden variety supplies you can get at any drug store and put it all in a small tackle box. I have found that some of the pre-made kits had a bunch of stuff that I never thought I would use (even though I used to be a paramedic I still have some common sense left). I couldn't begin to tell you how much I spent but I doubt it was much more than $30 or so. I just put in some bandaids, gauze, roller gauze, scissors, first aid ointment, and the like. Nothing too elaborate - I figure if I cut off my finger (heaven forbid) I would probably panic and stuff it in my shirt tail anyway.

[Bart Leetch]

Good information

From the people that supply our fire extinguishers here at the apartment complexes. DO NOT purchase fire extinguishers with plastic valves because plastic is a oil derivative & it will eventually deteriorate & lets your fire extinguisher slowly leak down so when you think you have protection you really don't.

Also the recommendation on tourniquet now days that I've read by medical professionals is not to instead use direct pressure only. The reasons I have heard are clots & possibility of killing tissue because of lack of blood.

[Mike Tempel]

Bart, you are correct. A tourniquet should only be used as a last resort. If one must be used it should be loosened every few minutes to let blood flow so as to not cause further damage to downstream tissues. The use of pressure points is to be used instead. Pressure points are those such as the Brachial artery (located in the under side of your upper arm in the bicep/tricep muscle area - feel for the pulse), the femoral artery (upper leg), there are also points in the forearm and the lower leg but I forget the names - maybe Jim Becker could ask his wife to help us out here. Being that I was a paramedic in a former life we typically scooped up our patients and boogied to the hospital all the while continuing to provide care. Regardless, the use of pressure points is recommended over tourniquets. The most important thing to remember is applied direct pressure to the injury pronto and maintain that pressure. Hopefully with a clean cloth but a shirt will do in a pinch (no pun intended).

[Dale Thompson]

Karl,
I don't want to refute any of the responses to your post. On the other hand, for safety and practical reasons, I feel that the record should be set straight. So, at my peril, I will give you the facts as I know them.

1. NEVER take your new extinguisher out in the back yard and test it. Rely on the pressure guage or other indicator to determine its readiness. If you DO want to "test" your unit, please have it recharged prior to hanging it in your shop. Without exception, your dry chemical unit will leak off after ANY discharge. Even the "clean" agents, such as CO2, Halon 1211 and the newer replacements should NOT be tested. Check the guage and hang it in your shop. PERIOD!!

2. The UL ratings on the extinguisher are more or less meaningless except for relative comparison purposes. In other words, a 2A unit has been shown to put out more Class A (wood, paper, etc.) material than a 1A unit.

The tests are rather complex but a 1A unit has extinguished a specially designed wood panel measuring 8' x 8'. A 2A unit has extinguished a similar panel measuring 10' x 10', etc. The ratings are also based on the size of a wood "crib" (a dimensioned cube made up of specifically dimensioned "sticks") that the extinguisher has extinguished.

The class B rating means that the unit is capable of extinguishing flammable liquid hazards. The numerical ratings for these extinguishers are derated to 40% of their demonstrated performance on a specifically designed pan with a 2" layer of "white gas". White gas is used because it is the same regardless of where you buy it in the country. Other fuels vary with additives depending on the geographic location and season of the year. For example, a 20B rating means that the unit has extinguished a 50 square foot fire in a square pan. A 40B rating means that the unit has extinguished a square pan with an area of 100 square feet.

A Class C rating has no numerical value. It simply means that the agent has been tested and shown to be sufficiently "non-conductive" so that it can be safely used on typically Class A fires involving live electrical components. In other words, you will not be electrocuted by the agent stream as you would if you were to use a water extinguisher.

A Class D agent is to be used only for flammable metals such as aluminum, magnesium, zirconium, titanium (yep - even iron),etc. These are specialized agents. NEVER use any of the standard agents (i.e. A,B or C) on a flammable metal fire. The temperatures are so high that an explosion will occur. BOOM!! :eek:

Whatever, what do I use in MY shop. I prefer CO2 or one of the newer liquid or gaseous agents. CO2 is a lousy agent but it will smother A,B and C fires. It is also cheap. The newer liquid or gaseous agents are better but they cost an arm and a leg.

I would NOT use an ABC Dry Chemical extinguisher in my shop. Dry chemical is a "dirty" agent and has dust components in the sub-micron range. These components will penetrate even "explosion-proof" fixtures. The primary ingredient, monoammonium phosphate, will break down at about 200 degrees Fahrenheit. This means that all of the other motors in your shop will be exposed to this material and, when the breakdown occurs, your armatures will all be coated with a really neat "varnish". When this "varnish" happens, your motors will leak smoke. If you can't catch and put the smoke back in the motor - WELL - don't say I didn't warn you!! :eek: ;)

Lastly, ALWAYS observe the following:
1. Mount your extinguisher at an exit, NOT in the middle of your shop. ALWAYS give yourself a way out!
2. Usually, the "first three minutes" of a fire are critical. If you have any doubt WHATSOEVER as to your ability to extinguish the fire, call 911 FIRST and then return to fight the fire if you think that it is within your ability.
3. Aim your discharge at the BASE or BOTTOM of the fire, NOT at the flames! Wood, paper, paint, gasoline, etc. don't burn. What burns are their vapors. These vapors are created at the BASE of the flame.
4. Prevent fires in the first place! Replace "squealing" bearings. Be careful of Krypton bulbs next to sawdust or shavings. Get rid of rags containing materials that can "spontaneously combust". Certain stains and linseed oil-based materials can "poof" in a matter of hours or even minutes.
5. Do all of your woodworking underwater. Just make sure that you are well grounded! :eek: :cool: ;)

Why do I know this stuff? You don't even WANT to know!! ;) :)

Dale T.

[John Miliunas]

Whew! Talk about an education! Well, well done there, Pesh! I'm dep....errrrrr....I mean, impressed!:D I'm especially grateful for the info on the ABC type, as I believe that's the one I have at the far end of the shop. The one by the door is a big old CO2. Looks like I may have to go shopping. With Menard's 17% discount bag sale, this may be a good time!:) Thanks again...Very informative.:cool:

[Bob Johnson2]

Karl

You may not be able to get Halon anymore, they just removed the one from the computer room at work as they can't get the halon to refill it any more, of course living in Ma. is a bit different from the rest of the world.

[Karl Laustrup]

WOW! "Pesh", Who knew that you were so versed in fire safety. I guess you need "something" to do up there in the land that time forgot.;) :D

After checking out your profile I see how you know all this. I'm just amazed that at your age, you haven't forgotten it by now. :D That's my problem I'm old and have forgotton:confused: most everything [haven't forgotton where the 'fridge' is though]. :D

Any way, I plan on using two of my older extinguishers to get LOML and grand daughter some experience with their use. These are at least 8 years old. They are not refillable so will be discharged completly and tossed. Any thing on the correct method for disposal?

I will check on getting some CO2 extinguishers. I owned a auto electric shop and one of the things we did was repair fire damage to vehicles. The hardest part was getting the powder out of everything. Nasty stuff and I really don't want to deal with it if there is another way.

I have decided that I will strictly follow your recommendation as shown in #5 of your post. I am on my way today to aquire some scuba gear.:eek: :D :cool: GLUB! GLUB!

Figure I shouldn't have to worry about kiln dried lumber either. I can just chop a tree down and process it immediately into fine furniture. :D

[Dale Thompson]

Karl

You may not be able to get Halon anymore, they just removed the one from the computer room at work as they can't get the halon to refill it any more, of course living in Ma. is a bit different from the rest of the world.

Bob,
You are probably right on the Halon 1211 refill. Halon 1301 and 1211 are still available but they are made in third world countries that didn't sign the Quebec Treaty which essentially banned their production.

Surprisingly, while you and I have a problem getting the Halons, the government has millions of pounds stored for use in military and commercial aircraft and ships. It's THAT good. :rolleyes: :)

Replacements, though not as effective, come under trade names like FE-36 and Halotron, among others. The down side is that this stuff will probably put you back over $20/pound. :( :eek:

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

. Any thing on the correct method for disposal?

I have decided that I will strictly follow your recommendation as shown in #5 of your post. I am on my way today to aquire some scuba gear.:eek: :D :cool: GLUB! GLUB!

Figure I shouldn't have to worry about kiln dried lumber either. I can just chop a tree down and process it immediately into fine furniture. :D

Karl,
There is really no disposal issue on empty extinguishers. When you are sure that they are empty, however, it may be a good idea to drill a hole or two in the cylinder. That way, nobody can attempt to reuse them as pressure vessels and get injured in the process. :(

Regarding your last two paragraphs, I'll bet that most of you folks didn't realize that I was on the cutting edge (no pun intended) of woodworking technology. Now that I am "out of the closet", I suppose that you all will be expecting more brilliant ideas from me. I can hardly wait to see what my next quantum leap will be. :cool: ;) :rolleyes: :)

Dale T.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Dale,

Thank you for all of the information. I really have some shopping to do now!

Jeff

[Karl Laustrup]

Whew! Talk about an education! Well, well done there, Pesh! I'm dep....errrrrr....I mean, impressed!:D I'm especially grateful for the info on the ABC type, as I believe that's the one I have at the far end of the shop. The one by the door is a big old CO2. Looks like I may have to go shopping. With Menard's 17% discount bag sale, this may be a good time!:) Thanks again...Very informative.:cool:Spring, I went to Menards today figuring I might be able to get a couple CO2 or 5# extinguishers. They didn't have any CO2 ones. They did have 5# ones, but I decided to forgo the powder, at least for now, and see if I can't get a couple of CO2 ones. I also checked first aid kits. Junky plastic ones. So far the best one I've seen is the one on the website from my earlier post.

Now I need to figure out where I can get some CO2 extinguishers. Probably have to make a trip to Madison to a specialty place.

I can check out scuba stuff down there also. I've already looked into sealing up the garage so it will hold water.:eek: It could double as a pool, but cement pond isn't right. What can I call it? :confused: :D

I'll probably have to go totally neander also:eek:, if I'm going to do my woodworking at the bottom of the cement pond, or whatever it's called.

[Charlie Woods]

Most of the Halon used today is for commercial/goverment use. I know that many museums, art gallaries, auction houses, military etc.. use it because of it's effectiveness, and what they are protecting.
I have a 5# halon in the garage by the door to the house( i've had for 6-7 years, and get it inspected atleast every 1-2 years) and an 10# ABC dry chemical by the outside door. One of the most important safety items I have in my shop at home and school is a flammables liquids cabinet. I purchased a small one for my home shop at an auction, and I keep all of my flammable liquids inside under lock and key. The flammable liquids cabinet along with an approved container for oily rags etc.. should be in every shop. Not a pretty picture to try and put out a small fire, and it ignite fumes/residue from thinner, stain etc.. left out or in an area where it can be in contact with open flame. Working in the theatre, fire is one of the greatest safety concerns that we have to deal with.( Hence the developement of automatic fire curtains and smoke ventilation doors).

"For every pound of chemical in a fire extinguisher you have 1 second of discharge". Anybody else familiar with this rule?

[Dale Thompson]

"For every pound of chemical in a fire extinguisher you have 1 second of discharge". Anybody else familiar with this rule?

Charlie,
I'm not familiar with the rule but, then again, there are a LOT of things I'm not familiar with. :o

The fact is, acording to UL Standard #10 on this issue, the minimum discharge time for ANY portable extinguisher (2 lb. to 350 lb. wheeled units) is 8 seconds. The fact is that you can have a 2 pound unit which discharges in 15 seconds and a 30 pound unit which discharges in 10 seconds. :confused: :eek: REMEMBER: There may be extinguishers on the market which are NOT UL listed! Don't even THINK of getting those. :eek:

The rationale is another long dissertation which I won't bore you with. Suffice it to say that part of it is practical and technically justifiable. The other part is simply manufacturers playing games with the requirements to obtain the highest possible Class A and/or Class B ratings. :eek: The latter is probably the prevalent reason. :( :rolleyes: :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

Hey Dells,
Let me try to put a lid on this issue. I do not have an extinguisher in my shop. My shop is in my house and I have several units out in the garage where they are readily accessible. I previously said that CO2 and the new Halogenated (vaporizing liquid) agents would be my choice over ABC dry chemical. That is true. :)

Before you break a leg getting a CO2 unit, remember that I also said that CO2 is a "lousy" agent. Besides that, the tanks are heavy and bulky because of the pressure. They will, however, smother fires in any of the ABC Classes and they will not require "cleanup" after use. The agent is also "cheap". That is why CO2 gets my vote. :cool:

The Halogenated agents are ridiculously expensive. :mad: That is why I did not rate them first. Remember, though, that 80% of the portable extinguishers manufactured will never be used in an actual fire situation. That is the dilema. Economics versus practicality. :confused:

The best fire protection is still, as mentioned previously, FIRE PREVENTION!

If Spring is your role model for shop cleanliness, I would suggest that you install an automatic sprinkler system with full deluge heads, a 24/7/365 fully monitored smoke, heat and flame fire alarm system, a total flooding Halon system with automatic reserve backup, 350 lb wheeled ABC dry chemical units positioned at 5 foot intervals and at least two fully staffed fire trucks with tanker access parked on his estate. This may, at least, save his foundation and might cost him a couple weeks of his executive bonus. ;) :eek: :)

Dale T.

[Jerry Olexa]

WOW!!! I am IMPRESSED with the knowledge you guys have on this subject!! What a GREAT group!! I feel more inferior by the minute...Guess I better get me a fire 'PooterOuter". Thanks for info..

[Dale Thompson]

WOW!!! I am IMPRESSED with the knowledge you guys have on this subject!! What a GREAT group!! I feel more inferior by the minute...Guess I better get me a fire 'PooterOuter". Thanks for info..

Jerry,
It looks like you're getting to a fork in the road! Take it! :cool: :)

Dale T. (I LOVE Yogi-isms and Stengelese!) :)