Looking for some plane advice

[Stuart Deutsch]

My woodworking experience is mostly limited to power tools, but I'd like to go the hand tool route. Not fully, but perhaps interchangeably.

I have little hand plane experience, but plan on gaining experience through light dimensioning and board flattening and mostly for joinery cleaning and straightening. I read did quite a bit of research, but want to make sure I'm making the right choices before throwing down a huge investment.

Would the Veritas low-angle (bevel-up) Jack plane, bevel-up smoothing plane, and low-angle block plane be a good trio for getting started? I know that the low-angle Jack may tear out more, but figure I could use it with the higher angle blade that comes with the smoother, or the toothed blade that's available separately.

I am also looking at the router plane and medium shoulder plane for grooves and tenon work.

At this point I don't like to buy twice, and I don't have the time to invest in finding used planes that don't need much refinishing.

Do you think I would be better off starting off with the bevel-up planes (with a toothed blade for more aggressive cuts), or stick with the tried-and-true bevel-down plane designs? Thanks!

[Joel Goodman]

I would start with one good plane. For me the LN #62 BU jack (with 2 blades) would be the pick as it's really simple to get it working really well. And don't forget sharpening equipment! Either of the LV BU's or the block would also be a good start -- if you're sold on the LV perhaps the BU jack (although it's bigger than the LN). It's flat on the side (unlike the LV smoother) so you can shoot with it. You can add a microbevel at 35 - 40 degrees for face planing to help with tearout. After you have some experience you'll be in a better position to gauge your likes and dislikes. Some folks really like the LV totes; others don't. For me the LN #62 is a great plane and helped me get my vintage Stanley's to work well as I had an idea of what a properly set up plane could do. The BU planes are simpler (less parts) and simpler to get working well. YMMV!

[Stuart Deutsch]

I'll take that into strong advisement, thanks! What I like about the BU planes is that the blades are interchangeable, which looks to add to their versatility. I find myself flip-flopping between the smoother and Jack, but figured they complement each other nicely. I may leave out the block plane until I know I will definitely need it, and at that point I may opt instead for the more affordable apron plane as someone suggested to me.

As for sharpening equipment, I already have a DMT fine/extra fine stone, a 4000 grit wetstone, and am considering an 8000 grit stone. I also have the LV honing compound, a 9x12" granite surfacing plate, the Veritas honing guide, and coarse wet-dry papers. I use the sharpening equipment for chisels and knife blades as well, and think I'm covered well.

[Joel Goodman]

I think you'll find that the 8000 is a good addition. I don't have experience with honing compound but that might serve the same function as the 8000. I often go right from the DMT extra fine to the 8000 (microbevel).

[Ed Looney]

Stuart
I just goy my Veritas bevel up jack last week. The quality of the plane was such that I took the blade right out of the box installed it and went to work on a some 8/4 flame maple. Without honing the blade I was able to pull shavings less than .001 thick. I think you will be pleased with the LV jack it is a good choice. If you can I would go to for the 38 and 50 deg blades at the same time. The higher angles work wonders on figured woods.

PS For versatility I would go for the low angle skew block plane instead of the standard low angle block. The skew really helps on cross grain work and it also works well in standard block plane applications.

Ed

[Joel Goodman]

If you go that route I would just get a 2nd 25 degree blade and add a microbevel at a higher angle. Look at Derek's website "inthewoodshop" and he'll explain it.

[Stuart Deutsch]

I'll keep that in mind as well, thank you. I intend to develop my skills with cherry and possibly walnut, which may not need the higher working angle the 50 degree blade creates. If I opt for the LA Jack and BU Smoother, I'll have the included 25° and 38° blades to work with. I believe I can use scrapers for difficult grain, and toothed blade for thicker cuts, covering most of my bases.

I find the honing compound to be quicker to use than a stone since I can whip out the leather strop for quick touch-ups without need for cleanup. Taking out and preping the waterstones and cleaning up takes a bit more time and effort. Still, I think I can justify adding the 8000 stone to my sharpening lineup.

Joel, I read Derek's article (twice), and do see the merits of going with a 25° blade with micro-bevel over a stock 50° beveled blade. I also noted the easier cambering benefits he discussed. I tried to do my homework as much as possible over the course of the past week or so. =)

[michael osadchuk]

My woodworking experience is mostly limited to power tools, but I'd like to go the hand tool route. Not fully, but perhaps interchangeably.

I have little hand plane experience, but plan on gaining experience through light dimensioning and board flattening and mostly for joinery cleaning and straightening. I read did quite a bit of research, but want to make sure I'm making the right choices before throwing down a huge investment.

Would the Veritas low-angle (bevel-up) Jack plane, bevel-up smoothing plane, and low-angle block plane be a good trio for getting started? I know that the low-angle Jack may tear out more, but figure I could use it with the higher angle blade that comes with the smoother, or the toothed blade that's available separately.

I am also looking at the router plane and medium shoulder plane for grooves and tenon work.

At this point I don't like to buy twice, and I don't have the time to invest in finding used planes that don't need much refinishing.

Do you think I would be better off starting off with the bevel-up planes (with a toothed blade for more aggressive cuts), or stick with the tried-and-true bevel-down plane designs? Thanks!

Stuart,

The three or (with router and medium shoulder planes) five planes you mention are all great planes, and, if you have the resources and don't particularly want to 'hunt down' good used planes, why not go 'all in'........ although if you get hooked, you may not stop even at even five.

There is no rule that says you must have at least one bevel down plane (smiley), although many of us would encourage you to, at some point, try a bevel down plane .... there are some slight differences in center of gravity and, in some cases, the shape of tote handle.
For bevel up planes, if and when you want to put a significant camber on a blade, read Derek Cohen's article on this subject on his website, titled something along the lines of 'inthewoodshop'. Derek's article, btw, has some interesting advice in typically buying any additional blades all in 25 degree bevel angle.

You seem set with sharpening with the equipment you have .... a 8000 grit stone is nice but you could also "make do" with the honing compound rubbed onto a piece of flat mdf with a bit of mineral oil (baby oil).

Lee Valley has free shipping 'til July 11th, btw.

good luck

michael

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, if I could only have one plane, and this is truly a frightening thought, the one plane I would have is a low angle block plane. Everyone can use a LA block plane, even the most diehard power tool user. I have a number of block planes, all different sizes and shapes. The two I use most are my Veritas LA block and my LN 60 1/2 (I added the LN because I needed something just a little smaller than the Veritas). Both very very very nice planes :)

[Stuart Deutsch]

Stuart,

The three or (with router and medium shoulder planes) five planes you mention are all great planes, and, if you have the resources and don't particularly want to 'hunt down' good used planes, why not go 'all in'........ although if you get hooked, you may not stop even at even five.

There is no rule that says you must have at least one bevel down plane (smiley), although many of us would encourage you to, at some point, try a bevel down plane .... there are some slight differences in center of gravity and, in some cases, the shape of tote handle.
For bevel up planes, if and when you want to put a significant camber on a blade, read Derek Cohen's article on this subject on his website, titled something along the lines of 'inthewoodshop'. Derek's article, btw, has some interesting advice in typically buying any additional blades all in 25 degree bevel angle.

You seem set with sharpening with the equipment you have .... a 8000 grit stone is nice but you could also "make do" with the honing compound rubbed onto a piece of flat mdf with a bit of mineral oil (baby oil).

Lee Valley has free shipping 'til July 11th, btw.

good luck

michael
I didn't even purchase my first quality plane, and because of your comment, I'm now planning for down the line as well. My usual tendancies are usually to try out different tool styles, but at >$200+ a pop, I'm not too fond of the prospect of trial and error. Maybe I'll have hands-on demo time the next time the Woodworking Show comes around.


FWIW, if I could only have one plane, and this is truly a frightening thought, the one plane I would have is a low angle block plane. Everyone can use a LA block plane, even the most diehard power tool user. I have a number of block planes, all different sizes and shapes. The two I use most are my Veritas LA block and my LN 60 1/2 (I added the LN because I needed something just a little smaller than the Veritas). Both very very very nice planes :)

What do you think about the Veritas DX60? http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=61963&cat=1,41182,48942 Going by specs alone, I like that it's 1/4" narrower than the LA block.

[John Coloccia]

What do you think about the Veritas DX60? http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=61963&cat=1,41182,48942 Going by specs alone, I like that it's 1/4" narrower than the LA block.

Someone put a lot of thought and design into that plane, and it's also quite pretty. That said, it's not for me. This has nothing to do with performance but I just like the more traditional plane's feel in my hands. That's just a personal thing. I believe most of the reviews I've read over the years disagree 100% with me, and you probably will too. I'd love to have one because it's hot, and I would use it, but I prefer the more traditional shape.

2" is a little large for a block plane (the LA Veritas is 2"), but that's also what makes the plane very useful for more than just planing end grain and beveling. It's quite a workhorse. I did find that I needed a smaller plane for some things, though. 1 3/4" is a more reasonable size for a block plane if you're only to have one, so there's another check in the DX60 box.

Their apron plane is quite a nice little unit also...wish I had one. Maybe I'll be able to come up with an excuse to buy one :)

Honestly, I really doubt it much matters which one you buy. When you get right down to it, it's far more important to have a razor sharp iron than whatever differences exist between these various planes IMHO. I use my block planes almost interchangeably depending on mood. When I'm flattening something, I tend to go for the wider Veritas plane. When I'm straightening out a scarf joint, for example, I tend to go for the smaller and more nimble 60 1/2 because I can more easily target the area I want to target. I can use either for either purpose, though, and sometimes do just 'cause I feel like it :)

[Joel Goodman]

Look on the Lie Nielsen website for their tool events -- there might be one near you coming up. The events are free and you will get to try out lots of stuff and they are very helpful. Even if you end up with LV it would be very worth while. You can try out all their stuff, get great advice and tips, and check out things you might not have thought of like the rabbet block plane. Often they have other vendors there -- Mike W (with his saws) was at the one I went to.

[Stuart Deutsch]

Thanks, John, for the clarification. I'm flip-flopping once again, but am leaning towards the DX60 after all, but won't rule out the LN 60 1/2. Again, since I have little plane experience, I'm not in a position to know what type of handle style I prefer. The next hands-on even I can find in my area is many months away, and even then I probably won't be able to tell what I like from such limited exposure.


Look on the Lie Nielsen website for their tool events -- there might be one near you coming up. The events are free and you will get to try out lots of stuff and they are very helpful. Even if you end up with LV it would be very worth while. You can try out all their stuff, get great advice and tips, and check out things you might not have thought of like the rabbet block plane. Often they have other vendors there -- Mike W (with his saws) was at the one I went to.
Thanks for the suggestion - I just signed up for their hand tool event newsletter. I have already found their YouTube videos to be highly informative.

[John McPhail]

I have accumulated the Veritas planes you mention and really like them. The Jack ( which spends a lot of its time on a shooting board ) sees the majority of my work these days, and the router has been a revelation for me with tenons. And of course dados.

I have small collection of Stanley and Miller Falls planes ( 2x #4, 2x #5, 7c, 2x block, shoulder, moving fillister ) that are basically packed away. I prefer the ease of use features of the Veritas planes I guess, they make it easy for a newbie like me to dial in quickly. I have additional irons as well, but mostly stay with the stock bevels.

I plan to acquire the BU Jointer, Plow, Skew Rabbit and Skew Block as I'm able.

[Prashun Patel]

I have the BU jack and BU smoother and the Veritas Apron plane and a LN102.

The 1st plane I'd get is a LA block. You can't go wrong with any of the LN/Veritas offerings. Some people find the Veritas LA block too big, but that's the only 'negative' I've heard. You shld really try them before you commit. I also humbly submit that the DX planes are nice-to-have, but won't perform better than one of the 'cheaper' blocks from LN or Veritas.

As for the interchangeability of the blades on the BU series: after using the planes for a year, I don't find this much of a benefit in practice. Once I set a blade, I don't like to remove it except to sharpen it. Further, the 50 degree angle is really an effort to plow thru (for me). I now prefer to deal with tearout using other methods. I also sharpen more often.

I also submit that low angle smoothers are prone to track marks. The BU smoother does have nice heavy heft; you'll just have to camber a tad.

Last, a shoulder plane is indispensible for its task. Get one with good heft and easy adjustability. I have the Veritas small shoulder and I swear by it. You might end up a hybrid neander like me. The flattening/jointing tasks are sometimes just quicker done with power tools. However, tuning tenons and joints is often easiest done with a good shoulder plane.

[Sean Hughto]

BU planes are not exactly new technology. And if it is indeed a simpler and superior planing technology, why do you suppose our forebears bothered with those bevel down models? Why does the Stanley catalog from say, 1922, look the way it does?

My own experience is that BU is harder to camber and bevel up is not amenable to adjustment on the fly (I can change the blade depth on my BD planes without taking my hands off the knob and tote). While I like my BU planes, I would hate it if they were all I had.

[John Coloccia]

BU planes are not exactly new technology. And if it is indeed a simpler and superior planing technology, why do you suppose our forebears bothered with those bevel down models? Why does the Stanley catalog from say, 1922, look the way it does?

My own experience is that BU is harder to camber and bevel up is not amenable to adjustment on the fly (I can change the blade depth on my BD planes without taking my hands off the knob and tote). While I like my BU planes, I would hate it if they were all I had.

I don't disagree with this, and I have a pretty diverse mix of block/BU vs bench planes myself that all get used, but I'm curious why you say that BU is more difficult to camber?

[Sean Hughto]

The geometry requires that much more metal be removed to achieve the same clearance for the curve. Instead of simple pressing a little harder on the corner areas and taking a few more strokes on the stone, you have to get thee to thy sander or grinder and take off some significant metal.

[John McPhail]

Is there more information about this anywhere? I haven't seen this before; I cambered my BU irons just using pressure on the corners while honing, it seemed to work but maybe there is a better way?


The geometry requires that much more metal be removed to achieve the same clearance for the curve. Instead of simple pressing a little harder on the corner areas and taking a few more strokes on the stone, you have to get thee to thy sander or grinder and take off some significant metal.

[Sean Hughto]

Google it. You will find several articles and forum posts. An example:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

[Jim Koepke]

Stuart,

Welcome to the cave by the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate a location.

You may live near another member who would be willing to let you try some of their tools to see how they feel.

IMO, the way a tool feels in the user's hand has a lot to do with how often the tool will be used and how well it works.

As far as the bevel up or bevel down debate goes, I think what ever works best for a particular user is the correct choice.

jtk

[Joel Goodman]

As far as the bevel up or bevel down debate goes, I think what ever works best for a particular user is the correct choice.

jtk

Well said. It's kind of like "what's the best flavor of ice cream" My suggestion of one BU plane was that for me the simpler plane was less fiddly for a newby to get working really well -- not that I want all my planes to be BU -- they're not! But it helped me with my BD planes to know how a plane should perform. And I really like the LN #62. My 2 most used planes are the #62 and my vintage #7 Stanley.