Why the Bad Pub for Biscuits?

[Tom Winship]

Can someone explain the reason that biscuits get all the bad pub?
I've had problems with the thickness, not aligning the edges properly, etc. I would think they would add strength.
Maybe I've answered my own question? What else?

[David Hostetler]

Can someone explain the reason that biscuits get all the bad pub?
I've had problems with the thickness, not aligning the edges properly, etc. I would think they would add strength.
Maybe I've answered my own question? What else?

Actually biscuits do very little to add strength, which is where I think a LOT of the bad publicity for them comes from. I typically use biscuits in face frame construction because it is fast, and easy. I don't use them where a LOT of stresses will be encountered though. The thickness of the slot, and the quality of the biscuits is important. An overly thick slot, or a bad biscuit can cause a swelling, or a depression in the work piece. Using even somewhat marginal joiners and biscuits though, there is no real problem...

But when you compare say biscuits to loose tenon joinery, biscuits are a LOT weaker. Then again, they are super easy and fast...

[jonathan eagle]

Every couple of years, fine woodworking does an analysis of various joints.
They test dowells, floating tenons , MT etc for strength. Biscuits always acquit themselves well. They use special equipment to make sure things are apples to apples.
One can ignore the data or not.
Jonathan

[Alan Schwabacher]

Biscuits can be used various ways. When edge gluing solid wood panels, the glue is as strong as the wood, so biscuits help make alignment convenient but add little to no strength. If you need very precise alignment, you will usually need to adjust the edges with clamps or mallet, and if you can do that efficiently, why bother with biscuits?

Given their questionable benefits in gluing panels, the risk of accidentally exposing an unsightly biscuit when you trim or raise a panel, and the dimples that can form on drying after you sand a biscuited panel while the wood around the biscuit is still swollen with moisture from the glue, many people think they are not worthwhile.

When you join composite materials or solid wood crossgrain, biscuits do add strength. They are after all short, thin, inserted tenons. The question is simply whether the strength they provide is sufficient for the task at hand, or if bigger tenons are required. The depth is the limiting factor, as you can add several biscuits to compensate for their thinness.

[John TenEyck]

You won't hear me giving bisquits a bad rep. I've been using them for over 20 years in all kinds of applications from making boxes and cabinets, where they are about the fastest way of putting a quality box together if you don't own a line bore doweling machine, to wide face frames and similar applications. Bisquits excel with joining composite materials like plywood and particle board, but also work in solid wood quite well. I've joined solid wood stiles to plywood panels for simple doors and even built mitered door frames with double bisquit joints. None has ever failed. Bisquits are surprisingly strong in box construction. I've broken some apart and it takes quite a bit of beating to break them up.

[Bob Wingard]

If you've ever seen the video of Frank Klaus assembling a complete set of bookcases with nothing but biscuits & glue, you might be a little more persuaded to give them a little credit for adding strength. Adding a cross grain biscuit to a butt joint HAS to add at least some strength, just as a small loose tenon would. If you have confidence in them, and have used them successfully, they are great ... if you haven't ever tried them, and refuse to do so based on what you've read somewhere, I think you are missing a great opportunity to enhance your skill set. Or ... maybe you're just a tool snob, and you're looking for justification to go out and spend $1000 on a Domino. Is the Domino a great tool ??? Absolutely ... it's made a small fortune for FESTOOL ... are there other, cheaper ways to do the same thing ??? Again, Absolutely ... check out the motorized router lift and how it's used on John Nixon's website (EagleLakeWoodworking.com). His method is cheap, simple, relatively fast, and deadly accurate ... PLUS you don't have to buy expensive tenons from FESTOOL or anyone else. If you're of the mindset that expensive tools make one a great craftsman, just go buy a big CNC machine ... NO craftsmanship there ... just perfection.

[Jim Matthews]

I have seen two horizontal assemblies (assemba-lees in Abram's speak) where the biscuits are clearly visible on the most humid of days. Perhaps the current crop of biscuits are more stable than those. I'll use splines and hardwood before using biscuits.

Then again, I'm not in a production shop.

[Mike Henderson]

I use biscuits in certain applications but my plate joiner doesn't get a whole lot of use. For aligning boards in a panel glue up, I prefer to use cauls, rather than biscuits. As someone earlier mentioned, unless you're careful, you can make a cut that will expose the biscuits and that will ruin a piece. With cauls, you don't have that problem.

I do use them for certain miters. For example, when I make a tray, I usually put a biscuit in the miter to provide some additional strength and to help with alignment when doing the glue up. I don't do cabinets (face frames) so no use there.

Beyond that, I don't know what else you can do with them. I haven't found other applications but maybe other people will mention some.

Mike

[Dave Zellers]

Add me to the pro biscuit group. An awesome invention. Sure they can be used in places where they shouldn't but attaching face frames to a cabinet with biscuits probably out performs any other method. Done right and the face frame just becomes part of the cabinet.

Love 'em.

But that doesn't mean I don't love a good old fashioned M&T joint even better.:D

[Peter Quinn]

For cabinetry where lots of biscuits are used, for FF connections, plywood to plywood buts on partitions, etc, where a lot of biscuits are used. they are great and quick. Did I mention where you use lots of biscuits over a few lineal feet? But I've seen people try to build things like a farmhouse table where a few major intersections get a couple of biscuits, and IMO that is not enough strength for the application.

For edge glue ups on panels they will help avoid gross misalignments but they are rarely perfect, bowed cauls often work better IME, and they add negative strength if anything by marginally reducing glue area. A good edge joint is not going to break at the glue line with or without biscuits, but if they make you happy no real harm. I've used them to make slightly twisted stock behave better on counter top glue ups that were too long to be flattened. For flat accurate panels they are a waste of my time generally.

[Larry Edgerton]

A lot of times things get a bad rap because the people useing them are inept or using them for the wrong application. Biscuits are just such a tool. They are not a mortice and tenon, no more than a Domino, but they certianly are a usefull tool.

I use them trimming houses. Every miter joint gets a biscuit. My trim joints do not fail. It is fast and reliable. It speeds the trimming process as it provides an extra hand while setting the trim. I disagree that they do not add any strength to panel glueups. I have tested both and found the biscuited glueups to be stronger. I don't use them for that purpose on most occasions, I have a short T&G set I use on the shapers instead, but on occasion on site I will use them.

Being as the moisture problem is known, if you sand the panels right after gluing up with biscuits, would that be the biscuits fault, or would that be the craftsmans fault? I lean toward the craftsman.

I have special jigs for the biscuit joiner for everthing from setting extension jambs to scribing wood paneling into log beams. It is a great tool. I have a Lamello for the shop and a couple of Dewalts for job sites.

Bad rap? Not in my world......

Larry

[Bob Wingard]

They add negative strength if anything by marginally reducing glue area.

Care to explain that position ??? I see where the surface of the 2 faces is slightly reduced, but that is more than offset by the combined surfaces of the cross grained biscuit ... much like a loose tenon and/or Domino. Overall, you gain about 12X the glue surface that is sacrificed by removing the material.

[Bill White]

I'm not givin' up my Dewalt. Never had a failure, but I don't build stuff used in bar fights either.
Bill

[Cody Colston]

I use biscuits for certain applications, long-edge joints not being one of them. The biscuit detractors always single out that joint like it's the only place biscuits get used, which is not even close to true.

There are stronger methods of joinery to be sure, but when biscuits are more than strong enough, why the aversion to them?

Personally, I think a lot of the distain for biscuit joinery is because doing so makes some people feel superior in their woodworking. I'll bet they only use air dried lumber and never use sandpaper, either. ;)

[Chris Kennedy]

You would have to pry my plate joiner from my cold dead hands.

I use them in several places. I have used them in miters to reinforce them, and I use them in face frames as well. Places where I used to use dowels I now use biscuits -- they are faster and just as strong from what I have read.

Cheers,

Chris

[jonathan eagle]

At this point, I'm thinking to myself about the original question.
Who exactly is giving biscuits a bad name?
Jonathan

[Curt Harms]

At this point, I'm thinking to myself about the original question.
Who exactly is giving biscuits a bad name?
Jonathan

I think when biscuits came on the scene they were hyped as the solution to every joining problem and were used as such. There are places they work well (joining sheet goods which is what they were invented for) and places they don't work well at all. People use them in places where they didn't work well then complained when that unintended application doesn't work well.

[Cary Falk]

Norm made them popular. Now that Norm doesn't use one it is ok to look down upon them. I have the DeWalt. I don't use it alot but I do use it. Lowe's is clearing out their Bosch bisuits for $1 if anybody is interested.

[johnny means]

At this point, I'm thinking to myself about the original question.
Who exactly is giving biscuits a bad name?
Jonathan

You can put me in the biscuit haters column. I was one of those that bought into the "biscuits can join anything hype". I tried for a long time to take advantage of the increased productivity biscuits could bring about. I don't think there worth a hill of beans for alignment. We've already discussed how pointless if not problematic they are in panel glue-ups. Do they add some strength to some joints? Of course they do, but IMO the amount of strength they add to any joint is marginal at best, making their usefullness limited to a those few applications that need a little strength but not much. Things such as large mitered picture frames are a great place for biscuits, but I can't think of much else. I can see how easy and quick it might be to use biscuits to build a bookcase or drawers from a stack of square panels, but I wouldn't think it was any where near as stout as can be achieved with other types of quick and dirty joinery.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, my FIL retired from 50 years as a cabinet maker and received a biscuit joiner as a gift. A couple of years later, it sat un-opened in his shop.

I asked to borrow it so that I could try it out on a cabinet top I was glueing up.

What I found was that my accuracy was worse than when I didn't use biscuits, so I haven't used biscuits for that application since.

When I brought the biscuit joiner back to my FIL and told him of my observations, he laughed and indicated that his experiences had been similar, and that biscuits were a great problem solver for certain applications.

Later I purchased a slotting cutter of the correct dimensions for my shaper, which I use to cut biscuit slots when I need them for a particular application.

Splines of course are a traditional method, and a biscuit is just a short spline that works in an engineered system, great for certain tasks.

I doubt if I use more than 20 biscuits a year on average, most of my joinery is M&T, box joints, dado/rebate or dovetails, however sometimes the biscuit is the most suitable solution.

I don't hate them or love them, I do find however that they're over promoted, possibly to sell biscuit joiners on Father's Day.

I was once at a seminar at a big box store, hosted by a well know tooling supplier. The seminar was a couple of weeks before Father's Day, and the subject was router bits. During the question period I asked if it was possible to obtain a shaper cutter catalogue instead of the router bit catalogue.

I was informed that the shaper was obsolete, and to see the host after the presentation.

I did that and he was very nice, gave me his business card so I could e-mail him and obtain a catalogue for shaper cutters. He indicated of course that the shaper isn't obsolete, however sons/daughters/wives don't leave the big box store with a shaper in their cart, they do however purchase a stack of routers prior to Father's Day.

It was an interesting lesson in marketing, and knowing what to promote. I think the biscuit joiner may be influenced in that manner also.

regards, Rod.

[David Cefai]

200605I have successfully used biscuits to assemble carcases and doors. This wardrobe door is made from 3/4" pine with perspex panels. I recently made 9 cupboard doors from 20mm beech with plywood panels. Nothing fancy but the system works well. Probably the most important parameter is to ensure that the biscuits are stored dry and preferably baked for a few minutes, or microwaved for half a minute before use.

[John TenEyck]

You can put me in the biscuit haters column. I was one of those that bought into the "biscuits can join anything hype". I tried for a long time to take advantage of the increased productivity biscuits could bring about. I don't think there worth a hill of beans for alignment. We've already discussed how pointless if not problematic they are in panel glue-ups. Do they add some strength to some joints? Of course they do, but IMO the amount of strength they add to any joint is marginal at best, making their usefullness limited to a those few applications that need a little strength but not much. Things such as large mitered picture frames are a great place for biscuits, but I can't think of much else. I can see how easy and quick it might be to use biscuits to build a bookcase or drawers from a stack of square panels, but I wouldn't think it was any where near as stout as can be achieved with other types of quick and dirty joinery.


but I wouldn't think it was any where near as stout as can be achieved with other types of quick and dirty joinery

I'm curious as to what types of stout, quick and dirty joinery you were thinking of.

[geoff wood]

ive never met a biscuit i couldnt break with my bare hands

[Bob Wingard]

ive never met a biscuit i couldnt break with my bare hands

WITH or ACROSS the grain ??? WITH .. I'd believe .. it's just like any other small, thin, fragile piece of solid lumber. ACROSS .. well, let's just say I don't believe that one bit.

[Chris Fournier]

As has been pointed out, biscuits won't solve every joinery problem a woodworker will come across but neither with the dovetail, the M&T, splines, bridle joints etc.

I am on the edge of completing a job to outfit a municipal museum with new dislpay cases and I have used over 1000 biscuits to assemble the case goods. Fast, accurate and $.028/pc., what's not to like?

Do I use biscuits to reinforce 3/4" edge joints in solid lumber? No. Why would I? I don't use sliding dovetails in this situation either. For some reason biscuits get a thumbs down because of this but sliding dovetails are still ok.

Biscuits aren't accurate? Why not? Have you set up your joiner to cut parallel to the fence? Do you adjust the moisture content of your biscuits to ensure that they are a snug fit rather than sloppy loose? If not the problem is all operator, not the biscuit!

Biscuits are plenty strong and anyone who says otherwise is simply incorrect. As has been pointed out, check out the FWW tests over the years. Heck, why not biscuit up a stile and rail and get destructive on it yourself. I have and myself nor all of the full blooded manly men who visited my shop were able to break the joint in pine with one #20 biscuit - 12" long rail and stile.

I have a Black and Decker Professional biscuit joiner. It is copied by but precedes the DeWalt brand. It has worked flawlessly for all of these years and I have yet to sharpen the blade! This after at least 16000 biscuits.

If you make guitars, are a wood turner or sculpter you likely don't need to say anything positive about biscuit joinery in your shop. If you do a bit of this and that, it is a fantastic joinery tool. Sadly it only costs about 25% as much as the domino so no bragging rights I guess.

I bet that the Shakers would have invented the biscuit joiner if they could have keep their society together!

[Mike Cutler]

Why the negatives associated with Biscuits?
Marketing, and Porter Cable.
" Biscuits" were around, in some form or another, long before PC introduced their first Plate Joiner.
They had a product to sell though and the actual target audience (cabinet makers) would have been too small. Ergo,, the "application" of the tool was expanded to encompass a greater audience, the hobbyist, by demonstrating the tool, and process, in a manner that it was not entirely best suited for, and sometimes unsuited for. Load bearing joints that see shear and torsional load.
A biscuit jointer is a fabulous tool when used within it's intended design function, Frame and frameless carcass and cabinet construction. It is not a suitable tool for load bearing joints that need to maintain their structural integrity over time. It's asking more of the tool and the biscuit than should be. It is a fine tool to have available in any shop.

As an aside, and a pet peeve. Every magazine article I've seen comparing the biscuit joint to an M&T joint is flawed. Each time the M&T joint is sized incorrectly, too small, when used in comparison. A properly sized M&T Joint is stronger than a biscuit joint when their application is executed properly.

Rod
I suspect your FIL was given a lower quality jointer, with poor bearings. A Lamello might have found it's way out of the box once or twice.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mike, interesting comment about the Lamello, my FIL did mention that the original biscuit joiner was Lamello, and they had them in England long before he moved here in the early seventies. He did mention that they were the best, and very accurate.

The model loaned to me was a Porter Cable machine.

I'm sure that with a good machine, good biscuits and a skilled operator they work great, however as you indicated they aren't the cure all that they're sometimes promoted to be.

Since I cut my biscuit slots on the shaper, their alignment is excellent and I'm always pleased with their performance.

I'm sure I would be happy with a Lamello plate joiner, however for 20 odd biscuits a year I'll stick to the shaper.

Regards, Rod.

[Bill Huber]

ive never met a biscuit i couldnt break with my bare hands

You have never tried my wife's biscuits.....;)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

You have never tried my wife's biscuits.....;)

Huber......if I was you....I'd pray she never reads that post!

[Jerome Hanby]

As an aside, and a pet peeve. Every magazine article I've seen comparing the biscuit joint to an M&T joint is flawed. Each time the M&T joint is sized incorrectly, too small, when used in comparison. A properly sized M&T Joint is stronger than a biscuit joint when their application is executed properly.

I'm not sure that the comparison is flawed. If you properly size the M&T then you are comparing apples to oranges, reducing the M&T sizt to something closer to the biscuit's dimensions make the comparison more equitable. But, they should absolutely document that a properly sized M&T would be far stronger. I guess that doesn't make for exciting reading in some editors POV.

[Will Blick]

Biscuits have their role....
the most obvious use IMO is where you are gluing very thin items together, either side joined or mitered...
the biscuit is a means to drastically increase the glue surface area vs. no biscuit. And other forms of joinery are difficult with thin stock.
Sure, if you are gluing up 3/4" Maple top, the glue surface area is great enough, where biscuits added strength does not bring anything to the table, cause the glue line is already stronger than the wood....but that is not the only glue up biscuits are confronted with. I only state this, as previously a poster made it sound like, glue is already stronger than the wood, so why use em...

[george wilson]

The strength of glue is heavily dependent upon the surface area of the joint. Biscuits do increase the surface area,though full length splines are going to increase it the most. So are finger joints.

Biscuits also give increased mechanical strength to the joint,though,once again,they are just a half way substitute for full length splines. They are easier to do than splines,and better than nothing,is about it.

I got a DeWalt biscuit cutter cheap,and did use them to make a large dining table for my wife's large family to sit around. The boards were about 16" wide,7/8" thick,and about 8' long. It was just easier for me to use biscuits on these heavy pieces of wood,so I did. No problems so far. I put them about every 4" apart to get as much increased glue area as reasonably possible. No shrinking or bulging observed so far in the polished table surface.

As mentioned,the biscuits fit too loosely(before the glue swells them) to help much with alignment. Of course,you have to clamp the joints before the glue swells the biscuits,anyway. Just have to be careful about alignment when clamping up.

[Jeff Nicol]

The poor but simple biscuit gets a bad rap for basically a few reasons.

1. Those who have never used them, won't try them if someone with a "Famous" name says not to.
2. The so called self named "Purists" won't use anything that is not from the old masters handbook.
3. Not educating ones self on the ins and outs of the product and its proper use created a failure...now they hate them!
4. With any type of joinery, the applications can be expanded and experimented with to find new uses, some will never try it
for themselves and just say it won't work.
5. And lastly every tool that is not used in a proper manner, or not given a chance by those who believe it is beneath them since it is a reasonably inexpensive tool that any weekend builder can buy and use. This is due to the mindset that if it does cost the most it can't be any good........Never could understand this?????

I have been using the "Lowly" biscuits for 20 years and I use them in any application I think will work, of course I do a test piece to make sure it is the right thing, and that is key to the success of any joinery method. There are so many parameters and situations and types of wood that can influence the out come of any process. Someone who lives in Utah will have different results than someone in Mississippi or Louisiana, humidity is the bane of all wood workers and must be accounted for. So give everything a chance, before dismissing it, for a $500 farm truck can get you to the lumber yard just as nicely as a $50,000 suburban, but without the worry of scratching it or, the insurance premium.

Ferrari taste with a Chevette checkbook,

Jeff

[Harvey Melvin Richards]

I have used biscuits since the first PC model came out. It was widely panned by many critics, but I have realized it's limitations and adapted. I don't think I have ever used a biscuit where I couldn't have used something else. However in most instances the biscuit was either faster, easier or stronger, or all three.

I've seen many amazing projects created with junk tools, and way too many crappy projects created with state of the art tools. What ever works for you is almost always the best tool.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I have used biscuits since the first PC model came out. It was widely panned by many critics, but I have realized it's limitations and adapted. I don't think I have ever used a biscuit where I couldn't have used something else. However in most instances the biscuit was either faster, easier or stronger, or all three.

I've seen many amazing projects created with junk tools, and way too many crappy projects created with state of the art tools. What ever works for you is almost always the best tool.

Well said!

[Neal Clayton]

Every couple of years, fine woodworking does an analysis of various joints.
They test dowells, floating tenons , MT etc for strength. Biscuits always acquit themselves well. They use special equipment to make sure things are apples to apples.
One can ignore the data or not.
Jonathan

the point of mortise joints being better isn't that they're any stronger, it's that they fail gracefully. after that glue is completely failed you still have a mechanical joint, which can be disassembled, and re-glued, then you're good for another 100 years.

[Curt Harms]

the point of mortise joints being better isn't that they're any stronger, it's that they fail gracefully. after that glue is completely failed you still have a mechanical joint, which can be disassembled, and re-glued, then you're good for another 100 years.

Very true. I doubt biscuits are used very often for solid wood heirloom quality furniture. Cabinets from sheet goods that will likely be replaced in 10-20-30 years and aren't a multi month(year) project now.....

[John TenEyck]

the point of mortise joints being better isn't that they're any stronger, it's that they fail gracefully. after that glue is completely failed you still have a mechanical joint, which can be disassembled, and re-glued, then you're good for another 100 years.

I believe the results in the FWW article showed the M&T joint failed, not gracefully, but completely. Reality could be different, and if the glue gave out then you are right that a M&T joint would still be together mechanically whereas a bisquit joint would fall apart.

[Mike Schuch]

I bought a PC biscuit joiner, tried the biscuit joiner, sold the biscuit joiner, then bought a Davis & Well horizontal boring machine and will never switch from dowels back to biscuits! I actually picked up the old Davis & Wells for LESS than what I paid for the biscuit joiner.

I get much better (flatter, more precise) glueups with dowels and I suspect stronger joints. Biscuits holes might be 10% to 20% faster to cut with the biscuit joiner but I more than make up for this disparity when it come time for assembly. The horizontal boring machine takes care of proper alignment. When the glue goes on I simply tap the pieces together with a mallet and don't worry about proper alignment; the dowels provide proper alignment.

[Gary Curtis]

I've had good results with M&T, Loose Tenons (Dominos) and Biscuits. With close examination of which way forces will act on a joint you can take your pick accordingly. .Most furniture seems to need strength to counteract forces from one direction only. Obviously chairs have problems in this area. Never heard of anyone successfully making a chair with biscuits.

And boxes made of sheet goods that will be moved around a lot will undergo racking forces. Not a good candidate for biscuits. When I got my Lamello biscuit jointer was aware of the bad publicity. To test popular opinion, I used biscuits to join some 2x4 and 4x4 cutoffs. And a few scraps of 3/4 ply. I was barely able to separate the glued components clamping one piece in a vise and then hammering on the other with a small sledge hammer. The stuff just wouldn't come apart.

I think the quality of the biscuits is a big part joint strength. Genuine Lamello biscuits are quite uniform in size, eliminating the leading ingredient of biscuit failure --- poor fit in the slot.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Actually biscuits do very little to add strength, which is where I think a LOT of the bad publicity for them comes from. I typically use biscuits in face frame construction because it is fast, and easy. I don't use them where a LOT of stresses will be encountered though. The thickness of the slot, and the quality of the biscuits is important. An overly thick slot, or a bad biscuit can cause a swelling, or a depression in the work piece. Using even somewhat marginal joiners and biscuits though, there is no real problem...

But when you compare say biscuits to loose tenon joinery, biscuits are a LOT weaker. Then again, they are super easy and fast...

And don't forget the pucker factor, the biscuit pucker that may be caused when the wood swells or shrinks near the biscuit. That isn't going to when the use of biscuits any awards.