piano restoration

[Zach England]

Does anyone here have experience with piano restoration? I am really wanting an upright piano and I see older ones with various levels of abuse going for only a few hundred dollars on craigslist. I am wondering if someone with moderate to advanced woodworking/DIY/mechanical/tinkering skills can take one of these junkers and turn it into a decent student instrument. There's SOME info about DIY piano restoration online, but not much.

[John McClanahan]

Zach, do some searching in the forums here. A similar question was asked a while back. Maybe last winter. One of the members is a piano expert, and had good advise on determining if a piano is worth restoring, or if it is at the end of its useful life.

John

[Ernie Miller]

Does anyone here have experience with piano restoration? I am really wanting an upright piano and I see older ones with various levels of abuse going for only a few hundred dollars on craigslist. I am wondering if someone with moderate to advanced woodworking/DIY/mechanical/tinkering skills can take one of these junkers and turn it into a decent student instrument. There's SOME info about DIY piano restoration online, but not much.

Zach,

I am a Registered Piano Craftsman member of the Piano Technicians Guild. I spent 35 years tuning and rebuilding pianos. The best advice I can give is is: DON'T DO IT! Most of these old pianos that are offered cheap are well past their useful life and, at several hundred dollars, are overpriced. They can be had for the cost of moving in most cases, as their owners simply want to get rid of them. Most will need extensive rebuilding and parts for many of them are no longer available. You won't find much information on piano rebuilding on the internet because it really isn't a "tinkering" type of job. Even if it was, you would spend more money on parts (not to mention your labor) than you would spend on a decent used piano that is not in need of restoration - and you have no guarantee that you would be successful in ending up with a decent instrument.

This is not to say that finding an old upright in reasonable condition is impossible - it's just unlikely. Most pianos over 50 years old have some problems - most notably with the pinblock which is the wooden plank that the tuning pins are embedded into. If the pinblock is cracked or simply worn, the tuning pins will not held tightly enough to resisit the tension of the strings. If the piano won't stay in tune, you don't have a piano - you have a heavy piece of furniture. And this is only one part of hundreds that can be problematic in an older piano (and some not so old).

I strongly suggest you spend a little more and find a used piano under 50 years old that is in decent shape. You will be able to use it for a few years and ultimately re-sell it for about what you paid. In the long run, this is the least expensive way to go. Whatever you decide, don't buy anything until you have it checked by a competent piano technician - it will be well worth the money. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions I can help you with.

Hope this helps,
Ernie

[Zach England]

Thanks for the advice. I was thinking it seemed a bit half-baked, even by my standards.

[Michael Weber]

I would just add that if your not a musician with a real ear for tone quality you take someone who is with you before you buy a used piano.

[Ernie Miller]

I would just add that if your not a musician with a real ear for tone quality you take someone who is with you before you buy a used piano.

Not a bad idea, but keep in mind that tone = price range. In an under $1000 piano, tone is perhaps not the main consideration - tunability and evenness of touch is.

Ernie

[Zach England]

I don't need a performance-grade instrument. I am going to re-consider a weighted-key electronic piano.

[Greg Portland]

Zach,
Take a look at the better Yamaha's (DGX-630 + pedals, etc)... they are more than adequate for most students. This should be plenty of instrument until you get into ABRSM grade 6+ or 7 pieces.

[Ernie Miller]

Zach,
Take a look at the better Yamaha's (DGX-630 + pedals, etc)... they are more than adequate for most students. This should be plenty of instrument until you get into ABRSM grade 6+ or 7 pieces.

Not to be argumentative but... are you sure? A keyboard is an electronic instrument - a piano is acoustic. Keyboard technology has come a long way in its attempt to mimic a piano, but a keyboard is not a piano. It seems to me if you want to be a keyboard player, get a keyboard. If you want to be a piano player, get a piano. It's far easier to switch from piano to keyboards as it is to switch from keyboards to piano. Of course... I may be prejudiced;).

Ernie

[Greg Portland]

Yes, I'm sure ;). The weighted touch & tone on the Yamaha keyboard I mentioned is at least on par with other $1k pianos to the beginning and intermediate player. Once you start getting into the quality studio and professional upright pianos ($5k+ unless you find a steal) the tone & dynamic range are obviously superior on the real piano.

Suggesting that a new student run out and buy a $5k+ instrument is IMO not a good recommendation when we're not even sure that they will like playing (or what style/s). Keyboards have a better resale value plus there are many advantages (computer connectivity, play along with others, computer learning, different sounds, auto-accompaniment, etc.).

I know where you're coming from though... a real piano is a visual piece of art and it has a certain quality (visual appearance, feel of the instrument while playing, etc). I was fortunate to grow up with a large Baldwin grand and later have access to a M&H BB so I've been spoiled.

[Zach England]

I have a lot of research to do and a lot of constraints to consider--not least of which are space, money and time. I played piano for a few years as a kid, then was away from music for most of my teenage years and early twenties, and have recently dived into classical guitar. I don't want to play Rachmaninoff, but I do want to learn to play a bit. I also want something that will help me better understand music theory--something where I can pick one of 88 notes and get exactly that without any other variables.

[Ernie Miller]

Yes, I'm sure ;). The weighted touch & tone on the Yamaha keyboard I mentioned is at least on par with other $1k pianos to the beginning and intermediate player. Once you start getting into the quality studio and professional upright pianos ($5k+ unless you find a steal) the tone & dynamic range are obviously superior on the real piano.

Suggesting that a new student run out and buy a $5k+ instrument is IMO not a good recommendation when we're not even sure that they will like playing (or what style/s). Keyboards have a better resale value plus there are many advantages (computer connectivity, play along with others, computer learning, different sounds, auto-accompaniment, etc.).

I know where you're coming from though... a real piano is a visual piece of art and it has a certain quality (visual appearance, feel of the instrument while playing, etc). I was fortunate to grow up with a large Baldwin grand and later have access to a M&H BB so I've been spoiled.

Fair enough - I agree with most of what you said with the possible exception of the resale value of keyboards. If you buy a decent $1000 used console piano and use it for a few years, you will probably re-coup most, if not all, of your investment when you sell it. With new keyboards (with new features) being introduced to the market weekly, I doubt the re-sale value will be as good. And, by the way, if a keyboard malfunctions, who's gonna fix it?

I never suggested that a $5,000 piano is necessary for a beginner. With a little diligence, a solid, if unspectacular, piano can be found for much less. Of course, the piano will not self-tune or play the drums along with you. Tough choice! It's like arguing which is better: white or red wine. There is no definitive answer.

[Jim O'Dell]

Yeah, I'd steer clear also. I'm no piano tech, can't even play. But my wife is a Music Ed major, and teaches piano. I've seen enough of what goes into a piano to know to steer clear. Now, one thing I would do, and I'd love to have an old upright player grand for this (because of the depth of the cabinet) is to gut one and make a computer desk out of it. With the flat panel screens, wouldn't even need to be a player. Now, with the quality of the newer electronic keyboards that are truly touch sensitive, you could gut one and add an electric keyboard to it to still play piano. That would be cool also. Just some thoughts. Jim.

[Joel Goodman]

I think that one of the joys of music is the non electronic aspect of the classic orchestra including the piano. Stay old school!

[Zach England]

I think that one of the joys of music is the non electronic aspect of the classic orchestra including the piano. Stay old school!

The purist in me agrees. The pragmatist isn't so sure.

[Loren Hedahl]

Before you decide whether you want to rebuild an older piano or not, read one of the best books available on the subject.

"Piano Servicing & Restoration" by Arthur A. Reblitz

Here's one link for downloading: http://www.4shared.com/document/ApLSb0K_/Arthur_A_Reblitz_-_Piano_servi.htm

Another thing to consider, there are reasonably easy repairs for just about anything on a piano. A cracked pin block is quite serious, but even that can be repaired by various methods or even replaced. The reason these pianos are being disposed of is because of the labor rate difference between US and China. That is unfortunate, in a way, because many fine older instruments are being cast off that have the potential for being very solid performers for many years to come given proper attention.

If this is something you really want to do, I'll bet you can find a fine old Bush & Lane, Ludwig or other brand with a reasonably tight pin block and no major structural issues in your area for a few hundred dollars or less. You might be able to trade work with a piano technician -- say refinish the case on an old aligatored grand or two in exchange for rescaling, restringing and a set of new hammers for your Knabe upright. Who knows?

If you're going in hoping to make it a profitable venture financially, forget about it. But a lot of us old retired guys do a lot of crazy things just for our own amusement and edification. :>)