Do you get a "30,000" mile service on your car?

[dennis thompson]

I just brought my car in for an oil & filter change, which I do every 3,000 miles. The car now has 30,000 miles on it & the dealer wanted to do a "30,000 mile service" on it . They wanted $325 for it, change oil & filter,air filter, trans fluid, wipers, etc. I told them no but am having second thoughts. Frankly I think I'm getting an expensive oil change but I might be wrong. Do you generally do the 30,000 or 60,000 mile services on your car?
Thanks
Dennis

[Ken Garlock]

No, I just get 'nasty-grams' on the instrument panel telling me it is time for an oil change, or service xyz.

My wife's car, a Ford Escape, puts up time to change oil sign based upon time, not car use. I asked for the ":feature" to be disabled but the service rep claims it is a state law to have "feature". B.S.

My car, tells me it is X days to service B and then tells me I am X days past time.

On the oil change, you are wasting your money. The quality of brand-name oil is much better than it was 40 years ago.
Example: my car uses Mobil-one as recommended by Mercedes Benz, and the change interval is 12,000 miles. It is a 3.2 L. 6 cyl. Diesel .

On the 30K service, I would ask for a list of all things done during the service, and then compare them to the price of the same items when done separately. Then you can go back and select just those items that are pertinent to keeping the car in good running order.

[Roger Newby]

I had mine done around 100,000 miles and again around 200,000 miles. Now at 272,000 so I'll hold off a bit. Oil and filter around every 10,000 miles. This is a '99 Dodge Grand Caravan that was driven 38 miles each way to work every day. Now that I'm retired I only drive around 120 miles per week but 80% of that is highway driving. The mileage has dropped to about 20 miles per gallon where it was about 24. I think I'm getting a pretty good bang for the buck.

[Brian Tymchak]

Yes, particularly for the transmission and differential ( I have 4WD truck) fluid / filter replacements. Be aware that your warranty (if it covers > 30K miles) may have a dependency on following scheduled maintenance.

[dennis thompson]

I had mine done around 100,000 miles and again around 200,000 miles. Now at 272,000 so I'll hold off a bit. Oil and filter around every 10,000 miles. This is a '99 Dodge Grand Caravan that was driven 38 miles each way to work every day. Now that I'm retired I only drive around 120 miles per week but 80% of that is highway driving. The mileage has dropped to about 20 miles per gallon where it was about 24. I think I'm getting a pretty good bang for the buck.

Roger
At 272,000 miles, I'd say you're getting your moneys worth. Remember when getting 100,000 miles on a car was a big deal?
Dennis

[Mark Engel]

I used to have oil changes every 3,000, but as Ken mentioned, todays oil and filters will last longer. My truck (2005 F-150) calls for oil changes every 5,000 miles, so that's what I do.

The maintenance schedule for my truck does say pretty much what the dealer told you. Oil change, air filter, change transmission fluid, fuel filter, etc.
Check your car's maintenance guide and see what it says. Probably what the dealership is going by.

[glenn bradley]

I follow the recommended service schedule and never seem to have any horror stories to tell. My friends who make a big deal out of saving a few hundred dollars over the life of the car by going cheap on service generally aren't near as boastful when they are paying for a top-end rebuild or a tranny swap. The manufacturers don't really design the service schedule to make the car repair shops rich. There is actually a science to it. JMHO.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I typically go to at least 200,000 miles on cars. I change oil at 3,000 miles, but am seriously considering changing that to 5,000 miles. I let wiper blades tell me when they need to be changed. Air filters get an inspection and cleaning every 6 months and/or changed when the inspection deems it necessary. Coolant is flushed and changed when my garage says it needs to be done--coolant ph is checked and that determines when to change it. The transmission is serviced at 60,000 mile intervals. My cars are pretty much trouble free with this service routine for up to at least 200,000 miles.

[Dave Wagner]

I usually just look in the book for maintainance at the intervals and mark down what I do or change. Usually there are 2 sections in your owners manual/service book, one for normal use (5000-7500 mile oil changes) and servere dutey like every 3000 miles or something like that.

Synthetic oils you don't have to change as often, I usually go 7500-10,000 mile oil changes and have not had any problems. I usually run Mobil 1 or Amsoil.

[Dan Hintz]

I would have a major check done every 100k, as Ken does... anything before that (barring signs of something being a problem) is just a waste of money. Other than the typical oil change, the tech will check fluid levels (which you can do yourself), make sure the brake pad levels look good (again, you can do it), and so on. Wiper change intervals should be based more on time than miles driven... taking other factors into account, obviously, such as leaving the car in the California sun all day or in the North Dakota winter.

I would change my major fluids (tranny, diff, etc.) on the suggested schedule... 30k, 50k, whatever the manual suggests. But wrapping those up in a "X mile service" is a good way to get an overpriced smack to the back of the head. Places like AutoLube will do it for $50-$100, if you don't like getting your hands dirty. The dealer offers little more than an increase in price.

Just keep all receipts, in case a warranty issue shows up. As long as you can prove service, they can't deny you (though they'll often try).

[Charles Wiggins]

If you have the $$, follow the recommended maintenance schedule. This is your best chance at preventing costly repairs later on. However, if money's tight like it is for most of us you may want to pick and choose what you have the shop do and what you do yourself.

When I was younger, and had more time than money, and cars were simpler, I did all my own oil changes. These days I can get the oil and filter changed with all the fluid and tire checks for not much more than it would cost me to buy the oil and filter, so it makes more sense to have the shop do it. I can check an air filter and see how dirty it is and replace it, and I can change out light bulbs and windshield wipers so I would never pay a mechanic to do those things, UNLESS the maintenance package price discount was cheap enough to offset those costs. Let say that you decide you can do everything on the list except the oil change and the transmission fluid change and those two services would cost you $290 and the package is still $325. By the time you buy the air filter and wiper blades, etc. you're going to spend almost as much anyway, plus your time and gas, so you might as well have the shop do it.

[Jeff Monson]

I follow the recommended service schedule and never seem to have any horror stories to tell. My friends who make a big deal out of saving a few hundred dollars over the life of the car by going cheap on service generally aren't near as boastful when they are paying for a top-end rebuild or a tranny swap. The manufacturers don't really design the service schedule to make the car repair shops rich. There is actually a science to it. JMHO.

I'd totally agee with what Glenn says. My own vehicles I follow the mfg. schedules. Of all the vehicles and customers I see in my shop, I'd have to say nearly 99% of the time, the vehicles that have the proper and recemmonded maint. done, are the ones that have the least amount of problems.

One word of advice is to check your owners manual, do the service recemmonded in the manual. A lot of dealers come up with their own service packages, a generic 30K service that may apply to some vehicles and not to others.

[Joe Pelonio]

I did the 30,000 because I am on warranty until 60,000, and without that service it would be void. That's not a bad price, some places are charging closer to $600. With an automatic trans you do need to change the fluid at least at 60,000, if you go 90 you may as well not change it because it can cause more problems than it helps by stirring up debris and starting leaks. My dealer is now recommending 5,000 between oil changes, the manual says 7,500 for normal service, 3,000 for severe. The definitions are subjective but again they can use it against you on a warranty claim.

[Bob Turkovich]

Here's my recommendation based on 30+ years as a Powertrain engineer for one of the OEM's:

Follow the service interval recommendations as spelled out in the owners' manual. Anything else recommended by the dealer is non-essential except for your peace-of-mind (and dealer profit).

If you are not sure if your driving is considered normal or severe, you should follow the severe schedule if you have had the following since your last service:
- If you regularly have been pulling a trailer
- If you regularly have been carrying a significant payload (truck)
- If you have had a significant amount of driving under high ambient temperatures (over 90 degrees).
- You have driven a significant amount of steep grades.

(If you haven't guessed, fluid operating temperatures are critical for fluid life.)

Above all, recommendations from people driving different vehicles than yours are not really relevant to your situation. There are too many variables (e.g., duty cycle, cooling sytem performance, synthetic vs. non-synthetic, etc.) involved in determining the recommended schedule. In fact, the schedules for the OEM I worked for vary based on vehicle/powertrain line-up.

Ken, Re: the oil change indicator. I can't speak for all the OEM's, but the one I worked for (not Ford) kept track of engine parameters (typically engine temperature) within the engine computer and varied the change interval accordingly. There would be a base interval (ex. 6 mo./ 6000 mi) and if there were a history of high operating temperatures the indicator would come on earlier.

Joe, Re: Trans oil change intervals. Again, I can't speak for all OEM's but I know of at least one which changed their fluid formulation and is lube-for-life for normal service passsenger car applications (and has been for awhile). I played a key role in proving out that fluid and yet - to this day - there are dealers still pushing fluid flushes as part of routine maintenance. :mad:

[Jim Becker]

I do my service every 5000 miles, which is the service interval for my Highlander Hybrid, and do follow the manufacturer's recommendation as to "what" should be attended to. most of these milestone services are basic oil/filter/lube with tire rotation and a few other things mixed in. At certain intervals there are some bigger maintenance tasks. Professor Dr. SWMBO does the same for her Prius. To-date, I've used the dealer as they are very competitively priced, buy me breakfast at Perkins across the street, and have a comfortable waiting room with high speed Internet access so I can "be at work" while my car is being worked on. But we have another local firm that we wouldn't hesitate to use should we need or decide to...no real price advantage, but nice folks and right next door to Professor Dr. SWMBO's office.

BTW, with today's engines and excellent oil products, I wouldn't be uncomfortable with a 10K oil change interval in the least. But not on a vehicle that's still in warranty as Joe brings up. 3K miles is really not necessary and may not be the best use of a limited resource.

[curtis rosche]

i drive a 2001 focus. runs well, but every time we take it in cause of the service schedule, there is always somethings that actually needs changed. at 95000 which is when they said to bring it in, it needed a new valve timer, and we found the air filter was inhabited by squirrels. whats a couple hundred dollars now that saves you from thousands later? or saves you from an accident. i had a friend who didnt take it in a few times in a row and his transmision fluid was over due. his car stopped moving on a major road. nothing bad happened, but it could have

[Bryan Morgan]

I just brought my car in for an oil & filter change, which I do every 3,000 miles. The car now has 30,000 miles on it & the dealer wanted to do a "30,000 mile service" on it . They wanted $325 for it, change oil & filter,air filter, trans fluid, wipers, etc. I told them no but am having second thoughts. Frankly I think I'm getting an expensive oil change but I might be wrong. Do you generally do the 30,000 or 60,000 mile services on your car?
Thanks
Dennis


Nope. Not unless it will explicitly void the warranty. I do all that stuff myself. Trans fluid is a little more difficult as you have to remove the pan to get to the filter and draining the torque converter on an automatic is a little extra work but its not too bad. Some techs say to never change the trans fluid anyway... dunno if I believe that but my friend swears by it and he's never had any problems with his transmissions. Flushing the coolant can be a bit of a pain to get at the drain plugs in the block but again its nothing super difficult.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I follow the manufacturers recommended schedule religiously. It's the only way to prevent warrantee voiding.

[charlie knighton]

main thing i do at every 30,000 miles is backflush the radator, at 100,000 change hoses , new water pump, i had a radator cap go out at 101,000, maintance book says change every 30,000 , i did once, now will do every 30,000, tune up at 100,000

[dennis thompson]

I'd totally agee with what Glenn says. My own vehicles I follow the mfg. schedules. Of all the vehicles and customers I see in my shop, I'd have to say nearly 99% of the time, the vehicles that have the proper and recemmonded maint. done, are the ones that have the least amount of problems.

One word of advice is to check your owners manual, do the service recemmonded in the manual. A lot of dealers come up with their own service packages, a generic 30K service that may apply to some vehicles and not to others.

Well based on Jeff Monson's advice above I decided to have the 30,000 mile service completed but first checked the owners manual to see what exactly the service requirements are. The owners manual is 514 pages long & nowhere is a schedule for required services to be performed. I can't even find what their recommended oil change interval is. Any thoughts on what I do now? (The car is a 2009 Honda Odyssey & I do plan to call Honda U.S. later but wonder if I'll get anything from them other than a referral to the dealer)
Thanks
Dennis

[Jeff Monson]

Well based on Jeff Monson's advice above I decided to have the 30,000 mile service completed but first checked the owners manual to see what exactly the service requirements are. The owners manual is 514 pages long & nowhere is a schedule for required services to be performed. I can't even find what their recommended oil change interval is. Any thoughts on what I do now? (The car is a 2009 Honda Odyssey & I do plan to call Honda U.S. later but wonder if I'll get anything from them other than a referral to the dealer)
Thanks
Dennis

Dennis, I have 2 sources for factory recemmonded maint. 1 shows only a schedule at 160,000 miles?? The other shows recemmonded schedules like every other vehicle.
Here is the list, should not be much of a service, other than a general inspection, change the oil and cabin filter and you should be good for awhile.

2009 Honda Truck Odyssey V6-3.5L
Vehicle Level Maintenance Service Intervals Normal Service 30000 MI or 48000 KM


30000 MI or 48000 KM

Inspect
Brake Hose/Line (S)

Brakes and Traction Control (S)
Inspect front and rear brakes.

Constant Velocity Joint Boot (S)

Drive Belt (S)

Exhaust System (S)

Fluids (S)
Inspect all fluid levels and condition of fluids.

Fuel Supply Line (S)
Inspect fuel lines and connections.

Parking Brake System (S)

Steering and Suspension (S)
Inspect suspension components, tie rod ends, steering gear box, and boots.


Replace
Air Filter Element (S)
If driven in dusty conditions, replace every 15,000 miles.

Cabin Air Filter (S)
If driven in urban area with high concentration of soot, replace every 15,000 miles

Engine Oil (S)
Perform at interval or every year, whichever comes first.

Oil Filter, Engine (S)


Rotate
Tires (S)
Rotate tires. Check tire inflation and condition.


(S) = Service Warranty Requirement
(E) = Emission Warranty Requirement
(B) = Both Service and Emission Warranty Requirement

[dennis thompson]

Jeff
Thanks for the info, you've been very helpful
I called Honda & they were not helpful, they just said change the fluids when the cars computer tells you to. I asked how many miles should I go between oil changes, she wouldn't or couldn't answer me. So now I don't know if I should change my oil every 3,000 or 5,000 or 7,500 miles? As you can see from the responses just in this thread the mileage people change their oil at varies widely. To be honest I think the dealers recomendation is just a way to put more money in their pocket, it's hard to believe I need to change the trans fluid every year or every 15,000 miles as they recommend. I'm confused & very unhappy with Honda's response
Dennis

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dennis,

I drive a Honda Pilot, V-6. I bought it used from a local dealer and it came with the owner's manual. In the owner's manual is a chart that spells out the frequency maintenance items need to be performed. While my dealer would like to change oil every 3,000 miles, the owner's manual says every 7,500 miles.

Now at the risk of getting rocks thrown at me here, I typically change oil every 3,000 miles. Now 101 guys are going to jump on me and tell me I'm wasting money and I don't need to do it. To that I say...it's my car....my money.....kiss off! I just came back off vacation driving 4,500 miles after changing the oil. The same car is going to be driven by another family member for another 4,500 miles in a couple weeks. I'll change oil before it leaves and again after it's back.

As long as the scheduled maintenance is performed at recommended time or mileage or more often than spelled out in the owner's manual for the vehicle, the warrantee's should remain in tact. $354 is chump change compared to $4,000 to replace a transmission because you failed to have the transmission serviced at the recommended frequency based on either time or mileage.

I bought my youngest son a used Honda Prelude after his car was struck by a 4WD truck that ran a stop sign. A coworker asked how much mileage was on it and when I told him the mileage he advised me to take it to a mechanic and have the timing belt replaced. He didn't do it according to the scheduled maintenance chart and it cost him over $2,000 for a new head after the timing belt broke, leaving a valve open, the piston hit it and damaged the head. Of course, the company couldn't and shouldn't be held responsible for a lack of scheduled maintenance. That is the owner's responsibility.

[Jeff Monson]

Jeff
Thanks for the info, you've been very helpful
I called Honda & they were not helpful, they just said change the fluids when the cars computer tells you to. I asked how many miles should I go between oil changes, she wouldn't or couldn't answer me. So now I don't know if I should change my oil every 3,000 or 5,000 or 7,500 miles? As you can see from the responses just in this thread the mileage people change their oil at varies widely. To be honest I think the dealers recomendation is just a way to put more money in their pocket, it's hard to believe I need to change the trans fluid every year or every 15,000 miles as they recommend. I'm confused & very unhappy with Honda's response
Dennis

Dennis, I'm with Ken on oil change mileage. With conventional oil I still believe in the 3,000 mile interval. I'm a synthetic oil user myself, I run mobil1 oil and change every 7,000 miles. I take very good care of my vehicles, and maintain them accordingly. Rarely do I have a problem with my vehicles and when good care is taken, it pays off when its time to sell.

[Joe Angrisani]

Dennis, I'm with Ken on oil change mileage. With conventional oil I still believe in the 3,000 mile interval. I'm a synthetic oil user myself, I run mobil1 oil and change every 7,000 miles. I take very good care of my vehicles, and maintain them accordingly. Rarely do I have a problem with my vehicles and when good care is taken, it pays off when its time to sell.

Something to keep in mind, people: Published maintenance intervals are written by people who want to sell cars, not by people who want the car to last. They want the consumer to say "Gee whiz...I only have to change my oil every 12,000 miles. I will buy this car over that one that needs oil changes every 5,000 miles". So I'm with Jeff (for the most part). Change your dino-oil at a 3,000 interval. Oil's cheap...metal's expensive. And if you must waste money on synthetic, change the filter at 3,000 miles even if you try to take the oil change itself further.

[Bob Turkovich]

Published maintenance intervals are written by people who want to sell cars, not by people who want the car to last......

And if you must waste money on synthetic, change the filter at 3,000 miles even if you try to take the oil change itself further.

That's an over-simplification. Maintenance intervals are written to establish the minimum service required to get the vehicle through a useful service life - nowadays that's typically 15 yrs./ 150,000 miles. There are certainly internal disagreements with the marketing people if your interval is non-competitive but, in my experience, they were always set with the consumer's best interest at heart.

Re: synthetic. Are you suggesting that someone drain the fluid, change the filter and then put the old fluid back in? :eek: You'll be re-introducing debris that settled in the sump back into the flow system.

That all being said, I personally agree with the approach that changing engine oil and filter regularly (that is, at 3000 miles or 4 months, whichever comes first) is the cheapest endurance insurance policy you can buy - regardless of the recommended interval period. I would only use synthetic if recommended by the manufacturer as their recommendation may be based on performance factors (e.g., fuel economy) other than just oil change interval.

[Joe Angrisani]

That's an over-simplification. Maintenance intervals are written to establish the minimum service required to get the vehicle through a useful service life - nowadays that's typically 15 yrs./ 150,000 miles. There are certainly internal disagreements with the marketing people if your interval is non-competitive but, in my experience, they were always set with the consumer's best interest at heart.

And likewise your opinion can be seen as an oversimplification. But if you think anyone besides the bean counters run the show at the automakers, you're fooling yourself.



Re: synthetic. Are you suggesting that someone drain the fluid, change the filter and then put the old fluid back in? :eek: You'll be re-introducing debris that settled in the sump back into the flow system.

No. I said "change the filter". By that I meant change the filter (not sure how you translated that to draining the oil and putting it back :eek: :eek:). A clogged filter leads to the filter's internal bypass valve opening, resulting in NO filtering taking place. Unscrew the old filter with the crud inside, and screw on a fresh filter with clean media inside.

The only time synthetic is truly required is when excessive heat is part of the equation. Things like turbo bearings that can get coked. But put synthetic in most cars, and all you'll do is magnify leaks.

[Bob Turkovich]

And likewise your opinion can be seen as an oversimplification. But if you think anyone besides the bean counters run the show at the automakers, you're fooling yourself.




No. I said "change the filter". By that I meant change the filter (not sure how you translated that to draining the oil and putting it back :eek: :eek:). A clogged filter leads to the filter's internal bypass valve opening, resulting in NO filtering taking place. Unscrew the old filter with the crud inside, and screw on a fresh filter with clean media inside.

The only time synthetic is truly required is when excessive heat is part of the equation. Things like turbo bearings that can get coked. But put synthetic in most cars, and all you'll do is magnify leaks.

Joe,

As I noted in my earlier post, I can only speak from my experience at one OEM, but I stand by my statement on service intervals. Considering my job responsibilities included the approval of the powertrain part of the owner's manual (including service intervals), I can confidently say that Engineering had the final call - not the bean counters. (I would be more than willing to PM you my career resume if you're interested but I don't want it out there for public viewing.)

IIRC, you used to own service facilities. In that case, if I had a drain pit and was working under the "time-is-money" philiosophy then yeah, maybe I'd pull the filter before draining the pan. But if I was doing this in my driveway/garage with the vehicle up on ramps, I'd want to make sure I had all the fluid out of the engine before pulling the filter. Of course, this would also be dependent on where the filter is located and oriented.

I agree with your "truly required" statement, however, in some cases synthetic oil can offer enough fuel economy improvement to push you into a higher EPA number. While one might consider that bean-counter driven, I have seen it used as part of plans to meet CAFE requirements.

My job responsibilities never included engine oil sealing integrity but this is the first I've heard of synthetic oil magnifying leaks. I'll be able to ask the corporate experts tomorrow (provided they're not on vacation - it is, after all, a short work week.)

[Jim Becker]

Synthetics used in newer vehicles likely are not going to have a "leak magnification" issue and may even reduce wear over time. But AFAIK, they were not recommended for older cars that had a lot of wear already as they may have a thinner consistency. At least this was true back in the early days when Mobil 1 and it's truck sibling was released.

[Brian Elfert]

My last vehicle was a VW TDI Golf. It had a sealed transmission and no spark plugs or anything like that. The only service stuff before 100k miles was fuel filter, air filter, and oil every 10k miles. I never had to spend money on expensive 30k mile service. My current Pontiac Vibe is right at 30,000 miles. I guess I haven't figured out what needs to be done at 30,000 miles.

I hate spending money on my car, but I am spending $500 on parts alone to fix my diesel motorhome. My motorhome does have 400,000 miles on it and is still going strong with some minor issues.

[David Weaver]

Always full synthetic, no 30k service for me. Never had a leak with any car since full synthetic was widely available, but haven't been driving around old cars, either.

I follow the book on service intervals, buy the service manual (factory) when I get the car and important stuff at the 30k interval that I can't do, I get the services done ala carte at an independent shop.

There are some interesting write-ups about different oil filters online, some of them are such junk that you'd have trouble ever having the bypass valve open.

I'm not convinced that full synthetic does much because it's unlikely that anyone here who keeps clean oil in a car is going to have a dead car due to oil-lube-related engine wear. I know several people who think it's not their job to check their oil, though, and two of them have had the pleasure of getting their engines done at a quick-e-lube place only to run dry shortly after the service and have the pleasure of a new engine. One barely got out of quick-e-lube (and the place told them that they had "double gasketed" the oil filter - I've never heard that, wonder if it goes in with bucket of steam and other such things instead of just admitting you didn't put oil in the car after you drained it), and the other one grenaded on the highway. Anyway, i still get full synthetic because I can usually get a decent filter and full synthetic at the parts store down the street when they run sales, usually anywhere from $28-$30 for mobil-1 and bosch filter.

One of the cars is a turbo, and requires it, anyway - I'm quite sure it makes a difference there.

As far as dirty oil and clogged filters, don't forget the air filter - but I'll bet most people on here will never have a car that sees enough airborne dirt or enough oddball wear to worry about it.

I wouldn't be afraid to stretch my oil to 10k miles with full synthetic and all-pavement driving, but neither of our cars goes much more than half that in a year, so they get, at a minimum, an annual change.

[Joe Angrisani]

.....and the place told them that they had "double gasketed" the oil filter - I've never heard that, wonder if it goes in with bucket of steam and other such things instead of just admitting you didn't put oil in the car after you drained it.....

It's a real thing, David. The gasket from the old filter comes out of it's groove and sticks to the flange on the car. If the guy changing the oil doesn't wipe off the flange it is possible to miss it. Then the new filter (with it's attached gasket) gets screwed on, and presto, double gasket. As soon as the oil pressure comes up, the oil forces out between the two rubber "lips" with some authority.

Bob... I see your point of view but I still think you're wrong in thinking money doesn't drive the whole process for the manufacturers. :)

Jim... Yes, my "leaks from synthetic oil" comment is a used car thing. People think using the pricier synthetic buys them an advantage with their 40,000-50,000 mile car, and all it does is leak (or burn faster) resulting in an underfill over time (especially since the oil changes now can have 10,000-15,000 between them).

[Prashun Patel]

This is a timely thread for me. My minivan just passed 60k, and my Accord is passing 100k now. I'm having the dealer-recommended service done on both (not by the dealer, though).

I never did the 30k.

Over the life of the car, it's just not that much money in my mind. I also only change oil every 5000 - mainly because the math's easy!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

I can't speak for the auto industry but I can speak from someone who just retired from one of the largest, most widely known global corporations.

While profit and yes the bean counters have a large influence, in the case of medical electronics and I'm sure in most companies that have an engineering department and a legal department, engineering and the legal departments can determine what is printed and also have an huge effect on a product design.

In a manufacturing situation, to protect the company from liability issues, lawyers can cause the cost of the product to increase due to additional safety features that they can demand.

Your view that every thing is driven strictly by bean counters doesn't fit my 34 year experience with 2 of huge corporations from which I draw pensions. I think your view is a little too simplistic.

[Joe Angrisani]

It all boils down to the simple explanation. :)

I'm not calling from a soapbox for things to change or anything, folks. That's just how it is - from what I've experienced. That's how it has to be in our world of the last 25 years. Not just automakers. But I'm certainly not disgruntled over it. I don't like American cars in general, but Ford and another US auto-related play is in my portfolio, so I'm fine with the system (in any business).

[Bob Turkovich]

First of all, let me clarify my situation. I retired in 2008 after 36 years - the last 30 of which were in Powertrain Engineering. Since I was a retiree, I felt I could somewhat freely offer my opinion in this forum on the auto industry and its' issues. (In fact, if you search my post history, you will find my admitting who I worked for.)

In March of this year, I went back to work for the same company as a part-time advisor (which has made the LOML very happy). As a result, I need to be less open in case someone mistakenly interprets my comments as being representative of my company's position - which is clearly not my intent. Opinions expressed in this post are strictly those of the author....

Now that the legalese is out of the way....

I talked with the corporate Fuels & Lubricants specialist re: synthetic oil and here is what I found out:

That fuel economy improvement I talked about - testing performed in the last couple of years showed that it didn't pan out so it never became part of a fuel economy package. In fact, the only place we use synthetic is in high performance or high temperature applications (e.g. turbo).

Joe and Jim were right-on regarding leaks. When synthetic oils first came out, the base oil used in the composition did result in greater seal shrinkage than conventional oil. Subsequently, the various oil manufacturers either changed the base components or included additives that improved the shrinkage issue but they still result in more shrinkage than conventional oil. That being said, synthetic is still better overall than conventional for the high performance/temperature applications.

And, David...that double-gasket mistake unfortunately occurs more often than you'd think.

[Bill Cunningham]

I ignored the replace timing belt at 90k on the old Hyundai, and it broke at 160k. I lucked out, when it broke, the engine died, the electrical system went off, and the transmission disengaged immediately and the car coasted to a stop on the side of the road with-in walking distance of home. I got Lucky.. No damage. Got the belt replaced, and drove for another 120k then delt in the car for a new GMC truck last week.. Most people aren't that lucky when it comes to a timing belt..

[Dan Hintz]

I got Lucky.. No damage. Got the belt replaced, and drove for another 120k then delt in the car for a new GMC truck last week.. Most people aren't that lucky when it comes to a timing belt..
It all depends upon if the engine is an interference design or not... if it is, chances of coming away without at least some damage is very slim. Valves and pistons don't like to get that close, and one of them is going to give...

[dennis thompson]

Joe,

I can't speak for the auto industry but I can speak from someone who just retired from one of the largest, most widely known global corporations.

While profit and yes the bean counters have a large influence, in the case of medical electronics and I'm sure in most companies that have an engineering department and a legal department, engineering and the legal departments can determine what is printed and also have an huge effect on a product design.

In a manufacturing situation, to protect the company from liability issues, lawyers can cause the cost of the product to increase due to additional safety features that they can demand.

Your view that every thing is driven strictly by bean counters doesn't fit my 34 year experience with 2 of huge corporations from which I draw pensions. I think your view is a little too simplistic.
I agree with Ken completely. I worked at a large pharmaceutical company for 25 years & I guess our "engineering" dept would have been our Research & Development group. They were an excellent group but without the demonized "bean counters" they would have spent themselves & the company into oblivion, not because they didn't care, but simply because they were scientists & were all about looking at new ways to cure people with not much interest in cost control. Some cost control system is,of course,necessary for any company to achieve success (& I might add to pay their retirees like me). Not to be political but I think that the absence of cost controls at all levels of government has clearly gotten us into quite a mess in this country.
Dennis

[David Weaver]

It all boils down to the simple explanation. :)

I'm not calling from a soapbox for things to change or anything, folks. That's just how it is - from what I've experienced. That's how it has to be in our world of the last 25 years. Not just automakers. But I'm certainly not disgruntled over it. I don't like American cars in general, but Ford and another US auto-related play is in my portfolio, so I'm fine with the system (in any business).

What do you think of the newer volkswagens and other german cars? We need a puking smiley face icon. I think the design engineers (at least at volkswagen) hate service people.

[Joe Angrisani]

I'm out of the game for a few years. How far back do you mean by "newer"?

[David Weaver]

I'd say 2000 or newer. The Jetta IV era and beyond. Maybe the really new ones are better.

[Joe Angrisani]

I have no problems with that era cars. I'm familiar with them through 2004 or so. Well built. Superb road manners. What do you see wrong with them?