Two Cherry Chisels

[michael case]

Hi to all Neanderthals,

I've come over from power tool land again for more of your great advice. Despite the invention of the electric router I still need some decent chisels. I actually like having nice hand tools so I don't mind the money or the maintenance. I have a set of Sorby registered chisels for whatever chopping I might do. They are fine. But, a while ago, without really knowing what I was doing, I bought a spread of Two Cherry chisels for paring and general clean up. I use a Tormek and waterstones for all my steel. I have of course flattened and polished the backs and am able to get them razor sharp. Initially, I set them at 25 degrees. They wouldn't hold an edge worth crap. Then went to 30 degrees. Still really, really disappointing. I have now set at 35 degrees and I guess I'll have to see. Two Cherry just happened to be what Rockler carried and the balance and feel was nice, but I know nothing of Two Cherry's reputation amongst real hand tool guys. So my question is this - am I wasting my time with steel that is never really going to perform well? I'm willing to reinvest. Thanks in advance for your advice and opinions.

[paul cottingham]

Not really an expert, but 2 cherries are supposed to be pretty good chisels. In fact they are what I was going to "upgrade" to, when I get new chisels. Aren't they the same as the Hirsch Firmer chisels that Lee Valley sells? Be interested in what others have to say.

[David Weaver]

They should outperform the sorby registered chisels, unless those sorby's are uncommonly good.

I think the 2 cherries chisels are similar in toughness and edge retention to LN chisels.

I would return them or exchange them for others.

I had the hirsches as my first set of chisels and sold them almost right away as I ran into japanese chisels. What little I did use them, they held their edges quite well. Maybe not at 25 degrees in hardwoods, but certainly 30.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I only have one of their chisels. I never liked it until I reshaped it and ground away past all the rounded edges. It refused to hold an edge for a while, but after several sharpenings it has improved. I guess it was decarbed quite a bit at the tip from heat treating. So, your edge retention issue may improve after get past that first soft bit at the tip.

[David Weaver]

Good point on the decarb, Mark.

One other side comment from the OP - I don't think there are going to be many modern steel chisels that are great parers. I don't know what 2 cherries' steel is, it's hard to tell since they polish it so hard and don't tell what it is. But I doubt they will be as good for paring as finding some very old parers that are plainer steel.

That might be too picky of a comment, but if they don't work out and you still need parers and can tolerate a little cleanup, look to the old ones.

[Joe Fabbri]

I'm also in the market for some upgraded chisels. I'm leaning toward the new Stanley 750 style sweetheart chisels. If you plan to buy another set, maybe you should check them out. At Highland right now they have them (set of 8 and tools roll) for $219 and a $20 gift card. Alternatively, there are a few other sites (just google it) that sell the set for $170-180.

There aren't many reviews out there, but from the two or three I've read (Chris Gouchner's for Fine Wood Working, Chris Black for Highland, and some other one), they are supposedly very good at that price range. They say they're comfortable and hold and edge well. The steel is high carbon chrome and made in Sheffield (though I suppose with Stanley you might have to take that with a grain of salt).

Anyway, you might want to check those out, as I think Two cherry's might be even a bit more expensive than the Stanley's. Anyone else try them out?

Joe

[Bob Glenn]

I only have one 2 Cherries chisel that I purchased in an antique shop. It is my favorite chisel and is my go to chisel for fine work.

[george wilson]

My favorite chisels are the Pfiel Swiss made ones that Woodcraft sells.

Two cherries and Hirsch have buffed surfaces,which leave their edges rounded some,so you can't get a good sharp square edge with them,unless you spend a lot of time lapping the rounded edge off. I also do not like chisels that have lacquer on their blades. They soon turn a different color where there is no lacquer,and it just looks awful to me. Hirsch are lacquered,2 cherries may also be.

Other than that,their steel is good. Why put up with those things when you can get perfect Pfiels and go to work?

[Terry Beadle]

I have a Blue Spruce 5/8ths long paring chisel. It's made out of A2 and has a computer controlled hardening process. It has performed excellently over the last three years. Keeps an edge and hones back up with a quick session on a 10,000 IceBear water stone.

I too had a cutting edge issue with my Ashley Illes bench chisels until I set them at a 35 degree micro bevel. Then they settled down into great results.

I post these two comments in support of Mr. Weaver's generalization about modern steels. There's definitely some thing going on with modern steels ability to maintain a paring edge ( a angle between 22 and 25 degrees IMO ). I will say my 4 year old Japanese sword steel paring chisel has performed excellently from day one with a 25 degree bevel ( no micro bevels ). It makes me wonder how the M2 and CPM series steels will measure up to lower angled chisel edge settings.

[David Weaver]

Funny thing you'd mention the CPM and the M steels (though I don't know if M2 was tested).

someone just did a comparison (was it derek?) with different steels, and still the thing that fared the best was a good quality (not expensive, but not mass produced) japanese chisel, and an old stanley 750 was not far behind. Details coming back....jarrah was the test wood, so it must've been derek. also, i don't know anyone else who has a bunch of koyama-ichi dovetail chisels.

anyway, the powder metal steels did not fare well compared to the plainer steel chisels.

Results can't really be extrapolated for all woods since some folks seem to be enamored with 3v chisels in woods a little less harsh than jarrah, but it appears that the powder metals will be better off as plane irons than chisels, and will require a steep bevel on a chisel.

It's likely that the chisel you have (the imai, which to my knowledge is a white steel chisel with additional care in the forging process above and beyond the imai normal fare) is about as good as it gets in a chisel.

Also an additional comment being that chisels and plane irons don't fail from the same thing, so you can't generalize that a steel that's great in chisels will be great in plane irons, depending on what you're measuring.

[george wilson]

There were 2 different chisel tests made in Fine Woodworking,a year or 2 apart. Their findings were quite different! In the first test,the Pfiels didn't do real well. The Hirsches were among the best. A japanese chisel fared best in both tests.

Since I own Pfiels and like them,I didn't know what to think of the test. However,the second test,by another guy,showed that the Pfiels were much better than most others. The Japanese chisel still fared best.

Because of the first test,I bought a set of Hirsches for the Toolmaker's Shop. I never liked them a lot,with their lacquered blades and overly polished,rounded edges. I did my own little test of a few different chisels I had at work. Didn't have Pfiels at work,though. In my test,surprisingly enough,a set of Marples chisels,perhaps 25 years old,held up quite well!! At home,I still go for my set of 1960's Marples,though I would not recommend their new ones. Still like my Pfiels,of course. Force of habit makes me still use the old Marples,I suppose.

[Tony Shea]

I started out using Two Cherries. These were my first chisels when I got into WW. I actually really liked the feel and lightweightness (probably not a real word) about them. I used them pretty hard for a while and was very happy with how sharp I could get them at 32* micro bevel. I have since turned my attention to Japanese chisels and Lie Nielsen's. I've realized what a truely well balanced chisel is and seen what edge holding capabilities higher end chisels are capable of. So my reccomendation to you is to move on with the Two Cherries and look at either some LN's or a decent quality Japanese such as Imai or Koyamaichi.

I change my Two Cherries into paring chisels and have not been happy with their edge holding. The seem brittle at that low an angle and get small chipping on the edge. Not good for hard hardwoods at all but do ok with soft and soft hardwood. I just have to be gentle with them. I do like how razor sharp I can get them though. And like has been stated, they require a ton of work to flatten the backs to get by the rounded edges. But it is doable.

[geoff wood]

im satisfied with my 2 cherries set, but my older sandvik's are just a bit sturdier and hold an edge much better.

[michael case]

The Two Cherrys were lacquered. This must be some kind of sales thing. In truth the backs were not flat. There were undulations that ran the along the length of the chisels. The first thing I had to do was get the backs flat and this of course involved getting through this gummy lacquer. All the laquer did was make the initial truing harder than it needed to be. Anyway I trued them up and polished them flat. I think the brittleness of the steel is the issue as has been suggested. There seems to a theme I've run across before here - The brittleness of modern steel vs. the edge retention especially in lower angles of the Japanese chisel and older Western chisels. My expreince is like Tony's - I liked the lightweightness and I can get them razor sharp, but they are brittle. I'll see what 35 degrees does for them, but I'm going to sneak out and buy a Japanese chisel. Also I'll keep my eyes open for older chisels. As always, I really appreciate the input from everybody here at Neanderthal.

[David Weaver]

I don't know what sneak out means, but I wouldn't buy one of the japanese chisels that rockler has if they have the kumagoro with a picture of the bear on them at your store.

Nor would I buy the Iyoroi basic chisels at this point, unless you're shopping purely on cost.

* Hida has the Imai chisels (they call them fujihiro or something) - they have proven themselves in the hands of several people who have handled a lot of tools. Hida stocks at least some of these, as I ordered a firmer chisel from them last week to compare with koyamaichi and it was a stock item.

* Koyama-ichi chisels - LV has the dovetail chisels and Stu at toolsfromjapan.com has the full line. I'm not sure how much of it he stocks, though, he can answer that.

I would go with one of those two brands because they are not expensive for japanese chisels, and the makers are not high-quantity kinds of guys, they take some care with their chisels and as comparisons mount lately, that care yields better results.

A lot of the mass produced japanese chisels are still very good chisels, but a bit less tough in my experience, and i'm not sure if they live up to their hardness spec. I believe the koyamaichi chisels do, I don't have experience with too many others yet. I have iyoroi chisels that are a little higher up the ladder than the $40 a chisel versions, and they are good - getting better/tougher as i use them and hone away their initial metal, but I believe the koyamaichi chisels are more uniform, and are made with more care even though they are a bit plainer looking. At least that's my opinion from use.

I also have two matsumura chisels and consider the koyama-ichi superior to those in use, harder and tougher. I mention that only because FWW did a review and those chisels ended up somewhere near the top of the review and a lot of people bought them, but I think there are better chisels available for the same price.

My comments about Iyoroi go only for the entry level white steel chisels and their white #2 mokume chisels. I have never used the nicer-looking chisels that Joel (Tools for working wood) offers, and there is little in the world of japanese tools that you can make all encompassing statements about.

[Tony Shea]

I second David's comments about japanese chisels and really have lately followed some of his, Stu, and others about my chisel purchases with great results. I actually do have a couple Iyoroi blue steel dovetail chisels that Joel carries and have been very happy with them. They're best traits are their edge holding capabilities. Fit and finish aren't quite as nice as Koyamachi's that I have. The Koyamaichi's are also dovetail chisels and the edges are very thin compared to the Ioyori's, along the lines of LN thin. Which I consider to be a huge factor when purchasing a dovetail chisel as otherwise you might as well stick with bench chisels. I've recently picked up a couple Imai's from Hida and so far love these chisels. I haven't had them that long but have been extremely impressed. If your looking for some normal Japanese bench chisels I would def consider Imai's Fujihiro line at Hida tools. And in my experience Hida has been very nice to deal with. They will call you up imediatly if you make an online purchase and pay by credit card. It is always nice to actually talk to someone about your tool purchase.

[Russell Sansom]

I'll pass on a suggestion that's often made in a response to a question like yours.
Buy one size and format that you'll use in a "state of the art" modern chisel. Blue Spruce, Barr, Lie-Nielsen. Learn how to make it sharp. If you haven't sharpened A-2 steel before it's a bit of a surprise.
Buy a second size. Maybe in O-1. For $100, you'll now have two touchstones for the rest of your chisel life. You will then be able to answer you own question.

And for what it's worth, I just boxed up a set of 2C's for sale here on on Ebay. Their backs are simply too much work. I didn't like their edge retention and I didn't have the patience to regrind a set, even if I had put an hour or so each getting their backs flat, looking for the holy angle-of-angles that won't chip at the slightest provocation. I think life is just too short to spend it sharpening chisel backs.

[michael case]

David,

Sneak out means I'm married! Thanks for all the detailed info.