argh! color fill blues

[Jonathan Overlin]

hello all,

I am new to this process ( had the Trotec speedy 100 for about 6 weeks) and am having difficulties with the color fill process. I am at my wits end and am hoping someone can tell me what I may be doing wrong.

I have tried; acrylic paints, rub and buff, and gilders paste with, more or less, the same results.

I can fill plastics okay, but it is wood that is driving me up the wall.

My process is (now)-



sand
paint/stain
sand
laquer
sand
laquer
johnsons floor wax
raster
fill



apply thin coat of paint
squeegee (with library card, etc)
wait 5-10 minutes
wipe with damp rag and either

have rub and buff stain every inch of surface (not just engraved area)
have paint not stay in engraved area but stain the entire piece
have paint, etc only stay in the natural grooves of the wood
have paint pull out of engraved area
or some other combination of the above


is there a step I'm missing? I have read most of the posts that I can find on this forum, and am thinking of giving up on wood at this point.

Attached a pic, sorry, its from the laptops cam.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
Jonathan

[Jonathan Overlin]

200398 here is the attachment :)

[Dee Gallo]

Jonathan,

It looks like you've done your homework. I wonder if the problem is in an interaction between the floor wax and the rub'n'buff, for instance maybe the R&B is dissolving the floor wax enough to make them stick together. They probably both use the same solvent.

Maybe you should do a test with just the lacquer and fill, no wax to eliminate this factor.

However, if you have specks of paint sticking have you tried to clean them off with DNA at the end? That can be the missing step if you aren't doing that. Personally, I wait a bit longer than 5-10 minutes to clean. More like an hour or more.

Good luck! dee

[Jonathan Overlin]

Dee,

you don't have problems getting the acrylic paint off the wood after an hour?

[Joe Pelonio]

My step 7, rather than wax would be application of transfer tape. Engrave through then it acts as a mask.

[John Noell]

The wax step scares me. I'm with Joe - mask with tape (transfer tape, or if a small enough area, blue painter's tape). Also, after engraving, depending on what you use for fill, to avoid any wicking of the fill into the wood pores use a sealer (shellac, clear acrylic, varnish). If you are masked, the sealer can more easily be applied to the engraved areas only, protecting your lacquer finish.

[Glen Monaghan]

I've heard of transfer tape, but don't know what it actually is or where to get it. Would you mind elaborating for the clueless like me? Thanks.

-Glen

[Dan Hintz]

To remove the excess gilder's paste (Rub-n-Buff), you have to buff... your wax can be removed by buffing, too, right? So these are not compatible materials. It's likely you're mixing the wax and RnB during buffing, and that will be a difficult mix to remove completely.

If the wood grain is sealed properly, all of the Rub-n-Buff should come out with a good buffing. If you choose Rub-n-Buff as your colorfill, though, transfer tape will be useless as a mask.

[Mike Null]

It appears to me that you are using an opened grained wood. When you use that type of wood the paint is going to find the small depressions and will be difficult if not impossible to remove. I've found out the hard way that such woods should be avoided. Masking is usually not the answer as there is almost always some seepage under the mask.

Woods such as cherry, walnut, maple, birch, alder and mahogany can be color filled with much less difficulty.

Various color fills will produce varying results with some being more prone to capillary action (much more evident on light woods). There is no really fool proof way to know what's going to work without testing and experimentation.

I think you have taken all precautions necessary in your wood preparation except for grain filling. Rather than go through that I would advise using a different wood.

BTW, mineral spirits is a solvent for RnB and many waxes. DNA is a solvent for acrylic.

[Martin Boekers]

I don't color fill a lot, one style plaque I get from JDS is High Gloss Mahogany. Real nice plaque at a nice price.
I laser it, then take a firm block with a soft cloth around it, wipe it as cleanly as possible. A magic sponge
wrapped with a soft cotton towel does the trick. I let it dry pretty good then take some Novus Plastic polish (Fine)
wipe it over the area until it removes the excess. Then buff with a soft micro-fiber towel. This works nice.

Filling is difficuly to master open grained wood needs to be completly sealed "Flat" of it hold the fill in the graing.

[Dee Gallo]

Filling is difficuly to master open grained wood needs to be completly sealed "Flat" of it hold the fill in the graing.

Martin is right (although his typing fingers are having spasms) - the key is to have a well sealed surface. I color fill plastic every day and it's nothing compared to wood. I also color fill a lot of bone and that is worse than wood (because it's white) for showing specks and bleeding.

A plastic razor blade is very handy for scraping off little dots too and will not mar the surface.

Thanks Mike for clarifying the DNA/mineral spirits thing - I was switching gears and did not explain well.

[Mike Null]

Dee

I think clarification of the process you and Martin and I are all talking about is the grain filling process. It is not the same as sealing. Grain filling makes the surface flat so that it won't be home to those little streaks and specks that can't be removed. The entire process is time consuming and not generally something that I would consider for customer work. In fact, I avoid color filling wood whenever possible.

[Dee Gallo]

True, Mike - my idea of a well sealed surface is a perfectly smooth one. I don't generally stop at one or two coats of finish on wood, I keep going until there is a totally smooth surface which is, as you say, filled completely. I also prefer to over-do it on sanding, going to micro grits of 600-800. When I have wood that needs contrast, I usually go with shoe polish, not paint. Unless it's a sign, I think color looks cheesy on wood.

If I were doing a sign needing color, I'd use masking tape and airbrush the color on. Much easier to control, no bleeding and no cleanup.

[Mike Null]

We are on the same page here.
I usually go with shoe polish, not paint. Unless it's a sign, I think color looks cheesy on wood.

[Jonathan Overlin]

thanks all for the advice!

I think the majority of my problem is not waiting an hour after the squeegee phase of the paint fill, AND not having an entirely smooth surface when color filling. Thanks for the tips on the wood species.

As far as the Rub n Buff, I have tried using it also with out the johnsons floor wax involved, and it seems to smear and apply universal coverage to the whole piece (not just the area I want) :) maybe I gave up with not enough buffing.....anyone use a buffing wheel for this process? I saw on another post that 12-18 hours is the waiting time after squugee-ing off the rub n buff (oh, I soo lack patience)

Dee- I think gilders paste and shoe polish may be the same thing, they sure do look like it!

The reason I'm trying (in vain so far) to master this is, I would like to do 1930s-40s style art nouveau pieces, with their washed backgrounds and (ideally) sharp black lines.

-Jonathan

[Mike Null]

Can you post a picture of what you're trying to achieve?

[Jonathan Overlin]

something like this (part of a test box)

200473200476

[Jonathan Overlin]

thinking about colored beeswax with a clearcoat over it. Anyone tried that?

[John Noell]

Transfer tape comes in various widths and tack. It is mostly used by vinyl sign makers. (Cut the vinyl, apply transfer tape to top, peel so that the sticky back of the vinylis exposed, apply to surface, peel transfer tape.) It can be sourced from a lot of places, especially sign supply stores. (I don't know best USA places.) I mostly use medium tack transfer tape in 300mm/12" wide rolls when cutting acrylic.

[Martin Boekers]

Martin is right (although his typing fingers are having spasms) A plastic razor blade is very handy for scraping off little dots too and will not mar the surface.




I blame it on a corrupted version of spell check! ;-)

[Dee Gallo]

I blame it on a corrupted version of spell check! ;-)

Just had to say something, Marty... it's not often you leave an opening!:)

Back to our original program: on that image, it seems like you should be able to tint the wood and cover it with a solid finish layer before engraving through tape. Then, color filling should be easy. Make sure you put some tape on the sides too. Burnish the mask down tightly, then spray black. At least that's what I would do.

BTW- I really like pigmented stain made by Cabot. It evens out irregularities in wood color, but still shows the woodgrain a little. It's made for exterior use and lasts a long time. We put it on our bridge and deck by the pond and it's lasted for years. It does not peel off either as it ages, like paint might.

cheers, dee

edit: I meant to comment on the image. Being a Nouveau picture it seems to fight with the squared border - I'd eliminate it and replace it with something curvy or enlarge the image to crowd the space and extend the black areas at the bottom. Just my opinion.