Shop Vac for sanders

[Jeremy Greiner]

I have a few hand sanders that I use and I hook up to my shop vac. I was considering getting one dedicated for sanding with a much better filter put in it. I was thinking about the small 20-30$ generic shop vac's from harbor freight or big box store and getting a nice filter to put in there.

What I'm unsure about is this is the correct train of thought. Can I turn a cheapo shop vac into a good solution for collecting fine dust by just getting a better filter (one that's rated for fine dust).

Or is there some other component that I'm missing? The festool vacuums are really nice, but at several hundreds of dollars that just seems crazyness.

I know noise is a factor, but with the way my garage is, even items that are rated to be used without ear protection I pop on my earmuffs, the echo just makes it bad, so I'm pretty much always wearing ear protection when using any power tool.

-jeremy

[Victor Robinson]

This is my opinion after owning 3 shopvacs, including an el cheapo 6gal Shopvac, a large 5hp/16gal Ridgid, and an expensive Fein Turbo.

With a 1 micron or HEPA filter, the cheap vacs collect just as well as the expensive ones. In fact, some of the cheap vacs have even more suction. Basically, with Festool or Fein, you are paying for two major features: quieter operation and an auto-on power outlet into which you can plug in your sander. For me, the noise issue was paramount (neighbors' houses attached) and that's why I eventually got the Fein. The more expensive vacs are built better (eg have better center of gravity so they don't tip) and with Festool especially you can build an entire system of tools that can attach easily to the dust extractor.

Longevity of the motors is probably also in favor of the Festools/Feins. But as far as collection efficiency goes, you'll be fine with the cheaper vacs and good filters. JMHO.

[Phil Thien]

I'd suggest picking a vac which will allow you to use disposable bags. They will last a long time if you're only using the vac for sanding. The will keep most of the sanding dust out of a premium filter's pleats, meaning you won't have to stop to clean the filter every ten minutes.

[Greg Peterson]

I use the Dust Deputy with my Rigid vacuum. A relatively small percentage of filter clogging particles get through to the filter. After doing a fair amount of drywall work I opened the vacuum. No appreciaable gypsum or mud was inside the vacuum container. There was a fair amount in the pleats of the filter, but not so much that I noticed any difference in the performance of the vacuum after cleaning the filter.

I am very happy with my Rigid vacuum. The SNR feature of the Rigid seems to merely attenuate the higher, ear fatiguing frequencies. My old Craftsman shop vac sounded like a hive of angry hornets and forced me to wear hearing protection. I still usually put on muffs when I fire up the Rigid, but it doesn't bother me too much if I don't.

[Rick Potter]

I am with Greg on this one. I have a Dust Deputy ($99 less 20% coupon at Rockler) along with a smallish shop vac and it works great. I also have a baby Clearvue with a shopvac hooked to my chop saw. It works better than hooking it to the big dust collector.

Rick Potter

[david brum]

I've been using a Rigid shop vac with disposable bag for exactly what you're describing. I use both the disposable bag and pleated HEPA filter inside the vac. It works very well. When the suction decreases, you know the bag is full. It takes a long, long time to fill if you're only using it for sander dust. When I replace the bag, I find the pleated filter completely clean. The newer Rigid (the more expensive models) vacs are relatively quiet compared to their predecessors. They have some type of "scrolling" design which does a good job of eliminating the high pitched scream usually associated with shop vacs. In terms of performance, the suction is impressive, easily enough to handle sanders.

[Jeremy Greiner]

Thanks for all the great info, I will pick up a smaller shop vac and get it all set up with a bag and a good filter

[Mike Henderson]

I'd appreciate more information on using a bag with a shop vac. Does the shop vac have to be designed to use a bag, or can a bag be retrofitted to one that didn't use a bag?

Mike

[Phil Thien]

I'd appreciate more information on using a bag with a shop vac. Does the shop vac have to be designed to use a bag, or can a bag be retrofitted to one that didn't use a bag?

Mike

Yep. That typically required that the inlet be on the drum, and not on the lid. Also, the inlet typically sticks into the drum a couple inches and has an elbow or deflector that keeps heavy/sharp items from tearing the bag on their way in.

Many ShopVac, Ridgid, and Sears models can handle a filter bag. And if you're only using it for sanding or cleaning-up fine dust, the bags will last quite a while.

[Mike Henderson]

Yep. That typically required that the inlet be on the drum, and not on the lid. Also, the inlet typically sticks into the drum a couple inches and has an elbow or deflector that keeps heavy/sharp items from tearing the bag on their way in.

Many ShopVac, Ridgid, and Sears models can handle a filter bag. And if you're only using it for sanding or cleaning-up fine dust, the bags will last quite a while.
Okay, thanks. One more question. Where can I buy bags for a ShopVac?

Mike

[david brum]

You can get generic bags for Shop Vac at HD for sure. There are probably genuine Shop Vac bags at Lowes or Sears.

[Dave Gaul]

You can get generic bags for Shop Vac at HD for sure. There are probably genuine Shop Vac bags at Lowes or Sears.

Ace Hardware sells them too. I've also purchased them off Amazon when on sale, free shipping with prime.
I get amazing suction with the bag & cleanstream filter..

[Jim Becker]

For incidental use, it almost doesn't matter what vac you use, but for frequent use, the "higher end" vacs have advantages in their design including motor cooling that doesn't depend upon the air stream coming up the hose, variable speed to insure too much vacuum doesn't make the sander "stick" to the workpiece, better filtration to deal with the very fine dust that sanding generates, lower noise levels and auto-start for convenience. Fein and Festool are generally at the top of this stack with a few others that have similar qualities.

I use the Festool system in my shop and never use that vac for "general clean-up". I have an inexpensive Ridgid vac for that purpose. I also have floor sweeps in my shop (only should be used with pre-separation like a cyclone for fire safety).

[Prashun Patel]

I think using a Dust Deputy is the best option. I've used the drywall filter bags before and they work ok, but a Dust Deputy is more convenient and easier to change. It will keep most of the coarser dust from reaching and clogging the HEPA filter (which you should also install).

[glenn bradley]

I have run a couple of Ridgid vacs without issue other than the noise. Like all of us, I wear hearing protection and the fact that I live alone makes it easier as no one else is there to be bothered ;-) I added Clean Stream filters about 6 years ago. They are HEPA rated and catch "99.97 percent efficient at 0.3 microns. (1 micron is 60 times smaller than the diameter of a human hair.) "

The filters work as advertised; easy to clean, long lasting, etc. If noise is not your concern I would buy a good less expensive vac that will take a Clean Stream, a remote power switch and spend the other $300 on wood. Don't get me wrong, the Fein and Festool vacs are super quiet and build like a Mercedes. I just favor the Ridgid/i-switch-CleanStream combo because it has worked so well for me.

If I hadn't tried this combo first due to being shy about investing that kind of money early in my pursuit of woodworking, I would probably buy a Fein without knowing how well an alternative might work. Again if noise is an issue, pay up for a quiet vac. Just my experience.

P.s. I received a Dust Deputy for Christmas one year. Those simple little buggers are amazingly effective as well. End result is I clean my filters every couple months instead of ever couple weeks.

[Bill White]

I have a Ridgid muffler on both vacs. Fits in the exhaust side port. That, and a good filter works well. I use hearing protection anyway, but the muffler sure helped. My ROS is happy too.
Bill

[Phil Thien]

I think using a Dust Deputy is the best option. I've used the drywall filter bags before and they work ok, but a Dust Deputy is more convenient and easier to change. It will keep most of the coarser dust from reaching and clogging the HEPA filter (which you should also install).

Advantages of bags:

(1) Keeps more stuff out of the filter.

(2) Compact (space efficient).

(3) Less mess when emptying.

And if you're only using the vac for sanding, bags will last a LONG time, so pretty economical.

[Joel Goodman]

I know you don't feel noise is an important issue but the Fein is pretty quiet!!

[george wilson]

I used to use a Clean Stream filter on my Fein. It got very clogged up,and I was always cleaning the filter. I put the bucket shaped fuzzy cloth filter back into the Fein,and kept the CleanStream filter inside of it. This has worked out much better. The Clean Stream hardly gets any dust on it,and suction stays good.

I don't see the need to spend any more money on a vac than I spent on the Fein. It is pretty quiet,turns power tools on and off automatically,and has a very long cord. Very powerful.

[Mike Wilkins]

I have been using a Porter Cable vac for years with great results. The price is attractive, noise is tolerable, it has the auto start feature, disposable bags, and the hose is a nice length. 7812 is the model number if my memory is not on vacation.

[Prashun Patel]

To each his own. Your points are right and irrefutable, I guess, but I've been happier since I switched to my Clearvue Mini on my shopvac. Maybe I just like watching that stuff cyclone around in there.

[Kevin Stricker]

You get more than a tank when you buy a Festool or Fein extractor. You get a vacuum that is optimized for dust extraction vs shop cleanup. Most have variable suction which is usually critical to get the best sanding surface, too much suction will leave swirls in your workpiece. You get a premium hose that moves well with the sander vs always wrestling an alligator. True HEPA filtration vs a HEPA filter attached to a waffle, do a bunch of drywall work with a RIGID with a HEPA filter and see how much dust leaks out when you start the unit.

You will get better results with an extractor because you won't cut corners (as much) when it comes to sanding. Even with hearing protection a shopvac is going to get to you after an hour of constant use. Turn a Festool vac down to low and you can even hear your music while you get nearly dustless sanding ( with a good sander of course). You save money on paper as it lasts longer running cool, and on electricity vs using a downdraft table with your DC system. I'm not saying there are not other options available, but once you use an extractor you will never consider the alternatives.

BTW Dewalt and Porter Cable make more affordable units. I have also seen Fein vacs for $100 on Craig's list.

[Dave Gaul]

too much suction will leave swirls in your workpiece.

Please explain. You make great points, but I don't get that one.

[Rod Sheridan]

To each his own. Your points are right and irrefutable, I guess, but I've been happier since I switched to my Clearvue Mini on my shopvac. Maybe I just like watching that stuff cyclone around in there.

HaHa, that was good, I think I would probably like watching the stuff swirl around as well.

After flip-flopping for months on the mini cyclone/vacuum purchase decision, I finally caved and bought the Festool MIDI. It's compact, super quiet and space efficient, plus I don't want to deal with fine dust that's not in a bag.

Of course to deflate my balloon my daughter remarks "Why dod you buy a vacuum that looks like a photocopier?"................Regards, Rod.

[Kevin Stricker]

Too high of suction will suck the sander down to the workpiece, so instead of floating it will want to grab. Some sanding debris gets stuck between the paper and the work and leave deeper scratches than normal. The end result are "swirly" scratches that are hard to remove because as you move up in grits the sander tends to grab harder as there is better suction with the smoother paper.

[Mike Henderson]

Too high of suction will suck the sander down to the workpiece, so instead of floating it will want to grab. Some sanding debris gets stuck between the paper and the work and leave deeper scratches than normal. The end result are "swirly" scratches that are hard to remove because as you move up in grits the sander tends to grab harder as there is better suction with the smoother paper.
Maybe my vacuum doesn't have that much suction but I've never experienced such an effect. I've also never seen that effect when someone really leans on a sander, pushing it down to try to get it to sand one area better.

The highest I go with sandpaper for furniture which will have a film finish is P220 - so maybe the effect only occurs when you're using much higher, and smoother, sandpaper.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I use my Festool Vac while sanding. The suction goes through my sander and sucks air through holes in the pad / sand paper. The suction then pulls the sander to the item that I am sanding. I was told to adjust the suction until the sander was pulled to the wood with the desired force. If I connect my larger shop vac that I run through my little cyclone, I cannot control the suction.

I cannot authoritatively tell you what happens (good or bad) if you push down hard on your sander while sanding.

[Bill Rogers]

I did a search on Rockler.com for Dust Deputy and the closest thing that I found was a Dust Vortex. Is this what was mentioned here several times? http://www.rockler.com/search_results.cfm?srch=usr&filter=dust+deputy&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

Bill

[Prashun Patel]

Oneida makes the Dust Deputy. The Vortex is not the same. I don't know if it works as well.

[Jim Neeley]

+1 on using a DD, dust bag or something to capture the majority of the fines. My shop vacs won't take the bags though I've added HEPA filters. The filters work great but for example on my 12gal vac, the basin has about 1 qt of dust by the time the filter mostly clogs. It takes a while and I put on a respirator, just take it outdoors and spray it down with com,pressed air but if U were shopping again I'd do it differently. Will try a DD one day.

Jim

[Alan Schaffter]

I suppose a large amount of suction could pull the sander down but I have never seen it with my electric PC nor my pneumatic Dynabrades. The pad is wobulating and you should keep it moving also, so I'm just not seeing the suction provided by any Shopvac, Fein, or Festool strong enough to pull the sander down too hard.

I gotta agree with Prashun, my recommendation for best performing (to quote Dyson- "Doesn't lose suction"), quietest, and cheapest vac setup is a generic shopvac with Cleanstream filter, and a mini-cyclone, mounted in an insulated cabinet. If you vent it properly the cabinet temps stay in the 90's- I did a temp check for American Woodworker before they printed my tip:

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050004.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050005.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050006.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB0500161.JPG

[Bill Huber]

Woodcraft has the Dust Deputy, for $39 and you get your own bucket you just can't beat them or $70 with 2 buckets.
I have running the ClearVue on a Ridgid 16 gal. vac and it works very well. When I use it with the sander I will open one of the other blast gates to lesson the amount of vacuum.

Both the ClearVue and the Dust Deputy are very fine additions to a shop vac.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2021015/26326/Oneida-Molded-DIY-Dust-Deputy-Cyclone.aspx

PS: I do not have the muffler on the Ridgid, I exhaust it out the back of the shop though a dryer vent.

[Joe Adams]

For the auto start feature, I use the I-Vac switch to control my Shop-Vac and whatever tool I'm using. Works great.

Alan - That's one good looking shop!

[Curt Harms]

Something no one has mentioned--hose. I have a Fein TurboII. The smaller diameter nicely flexible hose is a real help when using with hand tools. There is an after-market hose vendor that I know nothing about. http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=Mr.+nozzle+hose&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Mr.+nozzle+hose&hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=wEU&channel=fs&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=l6oVTre-I6Hf0QHgy-1b&ved=0CFoQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=872e23e8f43f573e&biw=1680&bih=898. My Fein vac will also accept the tapered 2 1/2" shop vac hose as well but of course it doesn't lock in like the Fein hose.

[George Gyulatyan]

Okay, thanks. One more question. Where can I buy bags for a ShopVac?

Mike

I get the filters for my ShopVac at Lowes.

I have noticed the sucktion effect on both my DeWalt ROS and the Bosch half-sheet sanders, where they get pulled more into the workpiece, however, I have not noticed it cause any swirlies.

[Greg Portland]

Can I turn a cheapo shop vac into a good solution for collecting fine dust by just getting a better filter (one that's rated for fine dust).Vacuums are a -system-. Just slapping in a HEPA-rated filter does not make the entire system HEPA rated. For example, I've seen vacs where dust can freely blow around the filter or through the bag / container and out the exhaust. Fein and Festool designed their systems so these problems don't occur. Now, there are some less expensive options that will do an 'OK' job but I would not want to vacuum while my finish was drying. If you like Rigid, here is their "real" HEPA option (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/cleaning/vacuums-floor-care/ridgid/14-gal-hepa-wetdry-vac-107456.html).

[Rick Potter]

Alan,

Always appreciated your well thought out ideas, thanks. I do have a couple questions.

1. Do you have good suction at the end of that long shop vac run? I have always wondered how far you could go.

2. Mind telling me what size and type pipe and hose that is? It looks bigger than the 2" I was thinking of running for a sanding station.

Rick Potter

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan,

Always appreciated your well thought out ideas, thanks. I do have a couple questions.

1. Do you have good suction at the end of that long shop vac run? I have always wondered how far you could go.

Yes. No different than a vac with a long, corrugated hose. In fact probably better since it is smooth walled. I can't say without running numbers, but compare it to a whole house vac! Remember, vacs are designed to work with high SP resistance, the good ones like Fein and Festool pull nearly 100" of WC. Just don't expect them to move a lot of CFM.


2. Mind telling me what size and type pipe and hose that is? It looks bigger than the 2" I was thinking of running for a sanding station.

Rick Potter

The pipe is 2" PVC electrical conduit (same as 2" Sched 40). The (white) wyes are long sweep plumbing, while the gray bends are very long sweep electrical conduit street bends. the hose is 2" (I replaced the mitersaw hose with 2" since the pic was taken. I made the hose fittings by turning one half of short pieces of conduit to the correct diam on my lathe.

[glenn bradley]

Too high of suction will suck the sander down to the workpiece, so instead of floating it will want to grab.

This can be an issue for sure. I have a handle that has a rotating cuff on it that varies an opening to reduce the suction. Works quite well although I no longer see this item on Ridgid's site, the local Home Depot still has them on the shelves.

[Rick Potter]

Thanks Alan,

You have inspired me to get back to it, and finish that plan I have for a similar setup. In the pics the PVC looks bigger than 2".

Rick P

[David Kumm]

I found a dynabrade hose with integral air fittings on Ebay. Very flexible and easy to use. I have noticed the mid sized shop vacs with a drywall bag and gortex filter seem to work better than the very large vacs due to suction issues. Sanding is pretty hard on the motor so with a normal shop vac you may only get a few years use or less usage. Dave