Adventures in chairmaking

[Sean Hughto]

So we ought to share our failures as well as our successes, right?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6044/5893576355_e77bde679f_z.jpg

In his book "Welsh Stick Chairs," John Brown descibes his process for assembly: "Hammering home the wedges ... and knocking the legs in requires a brutal approach and courage. I have split seats, particularly ones like this with a nice straight grain."

You said a mouthful, John!

David Pye, in his book, "The Nature of Art and Workmanship" draws a distinction between the workmanship of risk and the workmanship of certainty. That of risk involves activitities that at any moment could spoil the piece. Yep, David.

"Once more unto the breach!"
Shakespeare's Henry V, Act III, 1598

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Sorry Sean! What a bummer. It looks like the wedges were in the right orientation and everything. I hope you can salvage it. Looks to be beautiful chair.
Salem

[Kevin Adams]

Bummer, Sean. What material is the seat and how thick? Can't tell from the photo, but are they tapered tenons or straight? Nice work on the undercarriage...I like the large bead. Stick chairs invite lots of experimenting...keep at it!

Kevin

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Salem. I may try some inventive fix just to see.

Thanks, Kevin. The seat is elm. It's thickest portions are nearly 2" and thinnest maybe half that. The tenons are tapered, though next time, I may just go straght. The benefit of tapering as I saw it was that it allowed me to tweak the angles a bit with the reamer. The down side is that it made them more wedge like.

I will definitely be getting back on the horse.

[Tom Vanzant]

Sean,
Would it be possible to salvage the piece using splines? The bottom surface appears to be flat and would provide for a reference surface for cutting spline grooves or (gasp) biscuits.

[John A. Callaway]

wow... tough break... I too would think some dowels and every clamp you can fit on there would be worth a try.... the weight of the body will not be centered over the glue line or behind it...so It might hold... The base of that chair is really nice.

[Kevin Adams]

Great seat/thickness, so it must have been something else. Maybe a crack you didn't see, maybe the tenons. John Brown used straight round tenons, not tapered. While many excellent chairmakers use tapered tenons, my understanding is that plenty of old time chairmakers used straight ones, too. The taper is great when it is perfect, but can act as a wedge when it's off a bit. When I taper them I now "cheat" with a tapered tenon cutter to match my taper perfectly. You don't need to drive the tapered ones in so hard (not like the photo of John Brown pounding his in with a big mallet!).

Get back on the horse like you said!

Take care,
Kevin

P.S. Unfortunately, I don't think that seat can be salvaged given where the break is. The rear legs take a tremendous amount of stress.

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Kevin. I agree with everything you said. Learning to be more competent in boring my splay and rake angles looks to be necessary s that I can go with straight tenons.

I may take a crack (so to speak) at salvaging this by cuting the seat maybe three inches beyond the split and then gluing a new board - drilled to accept newly shaped, slightly smaller diameter and likely straight back leg tenons at the cut. My thought is that it should be as strong as a glued up seat at that point, but getting the thing fitted will be a trick. I'll also have to shape the saddle to blend and all that. We'll see. The whole thing is gonna need some milk paint too to hide all this mess!

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Tom and John. As explained below, I've got some thoughts on a fix. If not, I can make more! ;-)

[Kevin Adams]

Sean,

I meant to ask you where did you get a wide piece of 2" thick elm like that? Really nice wood. I have an elm plank large enough for two more seats, but then I've been using butternut a fair amount lately. Carves nice and takes a great finish (oil and wax) if you like natural chairs like John Brown. I also have some beautiful cherry slabs that I am not exactly looking forward to saddling...

Take care,
Kevin

[Sean Hughto]

I often manage to find good sources for unusual stuff through ebay, but often not by looking for auctions of the stuff, but instead finding salvage and home mill type operations and sending inquiry e-mails (OhioWoodlands; Tree Farm Products; Smith Lumber; and many others). As I recall, I bought some maple or something from some nice folks and sent an e-mail telling them some other stuff I was looking for including wide elm. Turned out , they had a set of boards, and bought like 4 of them. The price was very fair, but shipping is steep, so it evened out. I found a great source for thick cherry in Michigan in a similar way. I think there are likely good mills around locally too, and I may investigate those further. I've really come to favor air dried wood, and wood that most any retail hardwood dealer either wouldn't have or would want a arm and leg for. Small family operations to the rescue.

[Sean Hughto]

By the way, only the seat is elm. The rest of the undercarriage is hickory.

[George Neill]

I would use tapered tennons, or straight tennons with wedges, but never tapered tennons with wedges – the chances of splitting the seat are virtually guaranteed. I am very agressive with my wedging (in straight tennons) and have never split a seat.

[Trevor Walsh]

I too just read John Brown's book, as an intro into the new style and joints I made a little stool.

200148

The legs were tapered/octagonalized with a plane and the tops rounded, then I used a small gouge to relieve the entry side of the holes, making in effect tapered tenons and holes. The splay's are uneven, but it can so easily me distinguished. Maybe something this simple can help work out the particulars without potentially sacrificing the saddling time?

[Sean Hughto]

I've made other legged items, including:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2728/4201582599_f6e6a24532.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3317604057_7185a3911e.jpg
so I thought I knew something about the particulars, but I guess there is always more to learn!

Saddling doesn't bug me, but making all those legs and stretchers sure does - as they all have to be assembled simultaneously.

As with most things througout my woodworking journey, I have ideas about how to do it better next time.

[Sean Hughto]

Good to know. I think tapered and wedged may be workable in softwood seats like pine or poplar, but I'm beginning to think not so much in hardwood seats!

[Harlan Barnhart]

I would use tapered tennons, or straight tennons with wedges, but never tapered tennons with wedges –.

I've always wondered how tapered tennons, even with wedges, stay snug over time. What prevents "creep out" with seasonal changes in wood dimensions? Wedged straight tennons make sense, the wedges expand the top so the tennon cannot be extracted. It seems like a wedge in a tapered tennon might actually push the joint apart.

[George Neill]

Wedged straight tennons make sense, the wedges expand the top so the tennon cannot be extracted.
... and the tops of the sockets don't require flaring; the action of the wedge and expanding tennon end are sufficient to bight into the sides of the socket.


It seems like a wedge in a tapered tennon might actually push the joint apart.
Somebody buy that man a beer!

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm a bit late to the party Sean, but I've been in that position before. I had the back section of a 5 foot Windsor settee split off like that. Since the chair is going to be painted try my approach. I drilled 6 holes about half an inch deep into the edge of the back piece and then small pilot holes all the way through to the split. A quick trip to the building supply place for some 8" long sheet rock style screws and I was ready to go. You just glue up the split, drive the screws so they act as clamps, and then plug the holes. 24 hours for the glue to fully cure, level off the excess on the plugs, and you are back in business. The settee, built in 2000, is now 11 years old and there have been no problems. Even now I have difficulty finding the split or the plugs under the coats of milk paint.

[Trevor Walsh]

I like that red stool, and I guess the practice wasn't the problem. Could it be that the stretchers are a little too long, so that when the legs are driven in there is too much stress on the seat?

[Chris Fournier]

I like that stool! I'm with you on the fix option for your elm seat. Glue it up and chalk that one up to the learning curve! I have lost some pretty far along project in my shop too. Usually I learn from the experience; by ususally I mean sometimes...

[Russell Sansom]

First, Thanks for posting. We all have a lot learn. This is an excellent example of something an apprentice would pick up early. I'm sure the other woodworkers in a shop would get a huge laugh out of the poor kid who made this mistake. Which he wouldn't make, because the group wisdom would already have instructed him in the tenon to mortise interface.

But for us this isn't a mistake. It's just a successful experiment.

[john brenton]

Well, thank God you had the words of John Brown to help you keep your sanity. Instead of it being a failure, it sounds more like an initiation. If it happens the next time you just suck though.:D

[Ryan Griffey]

I like the way you posed it out in the landscaping.

Looks like it's ready for a modern art auction. "April Fools' Chair"

[Sean Hughto]

Not much posing going on ... I carried/threw it outside because there was better light and less clutter there.

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Chris. I figure if you're not failing sometimes, your not trying hard enough! ;-)

[Sean Hughto]

I'm sure not going to do it exactly the same way again, but the same method worked fine in the two front leg joints.

[Sean Hughto]

Oh, I already know I suck. But I'm all I got.

[David Keller NC]

Sean - There's something about this particular problem that seems a bit odd. One of the characteristics of elm, at least according to St. Roy, is that it's dang near unsplittable. Apparently, this is why it was a favored material for wagon wheel hubs. If this is true, it's a bit odd that the seat split.

Anyway, why not just take the leg/stretcher set out, and glue the seat back with epoxy? The glue should be way stronger than the wood, and it would be unlikely to split again.

[Sean Hughto]

Well, I've riven elm, so I don't think it is unsplitable.

You have to put the stetchers and seat/leg joints together all at once. There is no way to take this apart - the glue's dry. I will fix it though.

[David Keller NC]

Well, I've riven elm, so I don't think it is unsplitable.
I wonder if that has to do with the sub-species of elm. Curious.


You have to put the stetchers and seat/leg joints together all at once. There is no way to take this apart - the glue's dry. I will fix it though. Ahh - what I meant was to pull the stretchers/legs/seat completely apart. Presuming you used type II PVA, you can usually take the joints apart by injecting vinegar. Anyway, I'd personally rather saw the stretchers off, re-make them and drill out the legs than joint the seat break and have to re-fair the curves in the seat.

[Jim Crammond]

Sean,

I think David is correct about the elm. I have made 15 or so chairs with elm seats. They have been american elm or red elm. I have never had a problem with seat splitting, in fact the wood I have used was very hard to split. I just finished a comb back made from an american elm that was struck by lightning last summer. It took a sledge and 5 wedges to split a piece that was about 15" in diameter and 30" long. The fibers tore more than they split. I've seen discussions about "Russian" elm that supposedly split very easily, so maybe that is what you have.

With all due respect to John Brown, I don't think chair assembly should have to be "brutal". The leg tenons should fit into the seat mortises well enough so that a couple of taps with a mallet or dead blow hammer seats them so that you have to tap them back out. A tapered tenon is a wedge, so if you apply too much force, it will split the seat. When assembling the undercarriage of a chair, take care to make sure that the parts are assembled in the correct orientation to each other. The side stretchers should be in the same plane and the legs should be assembled at the correct splay. Once the legs and stretchers are together, apply glue to the seat mortises and the leg tenons to finish assembly. The glue up seems to be a little more controlled that way.

Jim Crammond

[Harlan Barnhart]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3317604057_7185a3911e.jpg


That is spectacular Sean. Could you give me a few details? Wood specie? Are those inlays around the tops of the legs or is that a square seat-to-leg mortise and tennon joint?

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Jim. As for the elm, I can only say what I have experienced personally. The dozen or so pieces of elm I've ever worked with were tough and had significantly interlocking grain, but it was splitable. Perhaps subspecies makes a big difference?

Brown may havefelt he needed to be more brutal on his chairs without stretchers.

[Sean Hughto]

Harlan, you're too kind. The seat is box elder. The legs are maple painted with milk paint. The diamonds are inlay. This was one of my first leg boring efforts and a couple of the legs had some minor breakout at the edges of the exit hole. I decided to use it as a design opportunity and added the inlay. Probably wouldn't have thought of it otherwise, but I like it.

[Ryan Griffey]

Not much posing going on ... I carried/threw it outside because there was better light and less clutter there.

I wasn't being critical. Just a joke.

I had a cherry stool crack off in that manner while I was driving the wedges. The wood had a defect in it that I didn't notice. I was able to knock it apart and fix the seat.

I also had a windsor where the back post cracked out the side. I use it in the shop as a stool now.

I would find another use for that chair and start over

[Brian Millspaw]

Sean,
"
May I ask, what size holes are you drilling through the seat ? The top of the one leg that you have pared off, looks pretty large. I use 7/8" straight tenons on my legs. If I were making tapered tenons the hole would be even smaller, like 5/8"

-Brian

[Sean Hughto]

Good point, Brian. I would have assumed no larger than 7/8ths based on Windsors, but Brown said he used 1 1/4, so I thought I'd try it. You are right that the super large tenons, so that likely contributed too. I was depending on the elm. Live and learn.

Someone with serious experience should do an article on tapered versus straight, wedged versus not, appropriate diameters, and variations for different seat woods. Also, are all these variable further compounded by the degree of rake/splay? How about for with stretchers and without? Budding chairmakers need to know!

[Sean Hughto]

So I fixed it. Still needs some more shaping, but it is structurally fully sound.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6128/5923708809_250ecc1090_z.jpg

The splice is cherry, since that's what I had in the correct size and thickness. But the milk paint will cover it all anyway.

Now on to the arms!