Start of a Journey...

[Andrew McConaghy]

As an aspiring "Neanderthal" and being new to this forum, I wrote this up. The overall tone may sound negative, but I'm posting this with the intention of being able to look back in as little as six months and say "look how far I've come"

I have a few little wood projects around the house to "finish up" and a new one or two to get started on. In relation to these, I went out to my garage to cut up some representative pine samples to test of some finish on. Having been watching a lot of woodworking videos (Schwartz, Underhill, Klauz, etc), I grabbed a my handsaws ans started crosscutting a leftover piece of borg pine 1x4.

They say it is a poor craftsman that blames his tools, but wow did my saws do badly. I'm positive my lack of skill made things worse, but I'm really disappointed in my four borg saws. None of them demonstrated the fast, accurate, and easy cutting demonstrated time after time in videos.

The first is a Stanley with a red and black rubber handle and induction hardened teeth. Cut with a wide wandering kerf, left very rough stepped end grain on the cut. I know the consensus is that saws such as these are not worth the money as sharpening them is impractical.

Next was a "Buck Brothers" back saw, once again from the borg. It managed to cut with less wandering and a cleaner cut, but sawing through the soft pine took quite a bit of effort. Then I switched to another similar saw (a craftsman if memory serves, the plate is blank) with similar results. Both seem to be plain steel with a folded steel back and a easily visible set.

After that, I grabbed my most expensive handsaw: one of those flushcut/dovetail saws with an offset handle that can flip from one end of the saw to the other. I found offset handle made it impossible to get the saw to track plumb, and the plate grabbed in the kerf constantly.

To finish off, I made one final cut. I grabbed a 5 1/2" cordless circular saw with the stock blade and made the best sawcut or the night.

I still want to become a proficient or even accomplished handtool woodworker, but this is somewhat of a frustrating start. I need to find a saw that I feel comfortable with.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...After that, I grabbed my most expensive handsaw: one of those flushcut/dovetail saws with an offset handle that can flip from one end of the saw to the other. I found offset handle made it impossible to get the saw to track plumb, and the plate grabbed in the kerf constantly....

First thing to do is give this puppy to someone you dislike, be done with it.

Next thing I'd recommend is to get a good saw, just one, and learn to use it. I strongly recommend the LV Professional dozuki.

Pam

[David Posey]

Welcome to the slippery slope. I'm new to this neander thing myself, having before been only familiar with the world of modern house framing with a little bit of crude cabinetmaking thrown in. It's only been about six months for me. It's a totally different world. This is especially evident when you start sawing things. Even the height you saw at is different with a handsaw. If you try and use a borg style sawhorse, you'll quickly find yourself exhausted or hurting from putting your body in an awkward position.

Saws are a great place to start. If you've been lurking around these forums for any amount of time, you've probably already run across the Vintage Saws website, and that should tell you everything you need to know to rehab one. Your $5-15 investment plus a couple of hours of your time will outshine handsaw you can buy at the borg. I've got a D23 that I rehabed that ripped beautifully through all the SYP that will be going into my benchtop in a few weeks. It may take a bit to wrap your mind around some of the concepts of saw geometry, but once you start getting some saws redone and working with them it will all make sense.

If you haven't watched it yet, watch episode 3009 of the Woodwright's Shop. It's available at http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3000/index.html Then when you've got some decent saws tuned up to play around with, go back and watch it again. It's amazing how much more you can learn when you can actually practice it with decent tools. Hang in there, and in the words of Red Green, "Remeber, we're pulling for you. We're all in this together."

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

Depressingly, hardware store saws are almost uniformly terrible. Oddly enough the only exceptions to that that I've seen is the two sided Japanese saws (ryobas) with the impulse hardened teeth; these are a bit brittle and too finely pitched for my taste but they do actually work, which is more than I can say for the western style ones...

If you do want a Western saw, the LV backsaws are almost uniformly regarded as excellent and inexpensive. For unbacked saws, I've gotten lucky with eBay saws before, but you might be best off paying for a reconditioned one.

It does get better. A depressing fact of our modern life is that almost all mass produced saws are terrible.

[Steve Branam]

I was at this point just a few years ago. The fact that you are trying things and showing determination indicates you will be successful. Having been there, and for folks such as yourself, I started writing up the basics of hand tool usage at http://www.closegrain.com/p/intro-hand-tools.html.

You'll find lots of information and support on this forum, though sometimes you're biggest challenge will be sifting through conflicting opinions! But the good news is that there are many ways to get the same job done, so it's not so much a matter of picking the one that's right as it is picking the one that you want to do. There will be frustration, but satisfaction will emerge from it.

My wife was born in the CA desert, China Lake.

[john brenton]

It's not you!

The teeth on those saws are horribly punched and set, and are not sharp. If you get yourself an appropriate sized file and go to work you can get a sharp saw that really cuts, but it'll just be lipstick on a pig. And those Stanley FatMax saws have plates that are too thick with wild teeth and set. They may be ok in a pinch on a construction site, but are nowhere near suitable for fine work. The Stanley "fine finish" are ok and leave a nice surface, but why do that when you have creekers to tell you how to rehab real saws?

Getting a good user old Disston isn't too difficult, but now you're looking at learning how to joint, set and sharpen teeth. Troubleshooting and fixing a hand saw isn't all that easy. But learning to do it is something you just can't get around if you want to have success.

[Andrew McConaghy]

Thanks for all the support folks. At this point I'm looking to buy a decent saw, I don't think I'm up to learning how to joint, sharpen, and set saw teeth just yet. Just a little too much on my plate. I've got a friend in Japan who says he's going to send me a Japanese saw at some point, but still want a western saw for cross-cutting. Next week I'll be at a Rockler store and may look at their saws. The only one listed on their website is a gent's saw, and after the torture of the offset hande saw, I'm not sure if I want to use a gent's saw. Any advice on what Rocker stocks in their physical stores? The other option, of course is that free shipping from LV. What has the reception been on the Veritas 14 TPI crosscut Carcass? Would it also be suitable as a makee-learnie dovetailing saw?

[Andrew McConaghy]

My wife was born in the CA desert, China Lake.

Where I am located oddly enough. Small word, smaller town.

[Jim Koepke]

Andrew and David,

Welcome to the Creek and get ready to enjoy the ride.


The other option, of course is that free shipping from LV. What has the reception been on the Veritas 14 TPI crosscut Carcass? Would it also be suitable as a makee-learnie dovetailing saw?

In my opinion, the 14 TPI crosscut Carcass saw is likely a very good saw, my comment is only based on LV's reputation and service to customers.

BUT (that is a big but) for dovetail cutting one wants a rip saw for most of the work.

A crosscut saw is almost painful to use in a rip cut situation.

A rip saw is capable of doing an acceptable cross cut. Some folks feel there isn't any need to have a cross cut saw. My opinion is a well sharpened crosscut saw can leave a much smoother cut.

In my shop are a couple dozen saws and still I do not have all that I feel are needed.

There are a few ways to travel on this journey. Your situation sounds like your best path may be to buy a good saw or saws from Lee Valley as a starting point. This will become a valued knowledge point of how a good saw performs.

As time goes by, you may want to learn to sharpen saws to be able to acquire a larger selection on the cheap.

jtk

[Jay Maiers]

In my opinion, the 14 TPI crosscut Carcass saw is likely a very good saw, my comment is only based on LV's reputation and service to customers.

BUT (that is a big but) for dovetail cutting one wants a rip saw for most of the work.


I purchased my first real saw about a month ago; the LV 14tpi dovetail saw (rip). Initially I was a little less than impressed, but have come to the realization that my technique accounted for all of my perceived issues with the saw :o After a month of reading, studying, video watching, and slightly less-than-serious practice, my cuts have come a long, long way.

If you're serious about learning dovetails, bite the bullet and buy the saw. ;) Worst case scenario, you can always sell it here for 80% of your purchase price.

I like the saw quite a bit and am not far from adding the larger crosscut version to my pile. When I can consistantly make decent joints, I'll make a till for that pile and then buy a few more saws to help fill it!

Good luck!

[Steve Branam]

Her father worked on Sidewinder.