Japanese saw with western-style teeth?

[Bryan Ericson]

Some time ago, while helping a friend install some wood flooring, I was using my (somewhat cheap) Japanese saw to cut some trim when I hit a hidden nail - it utterly ruined the tall, electrically hardened teeth. I bought a replacement blade easily enough, but it got me to thinking: what if the saw had Western-style teeth that I could resharpen myself, not with a special file but with an ordinary triangular file? I really like using the pull saw, but I dislike the idea of replacing the blade every so often or sending it to a master sharpener (matate? I think that's right).

So I'm asking here: has anyone ever seen a Japanese-style pull saw with western-style user-sharpenable teeth? I've looked every so often on the internet for something like this, but every time I do so the only thing I come up with are the same old "Japanese vs. Western" comparisons.

[David Weaver]

Some japanese saws can be resharpened. On a rip saw, it's a fairly simple task. A good quality saw will be harder than a western saw, though.

There was some discussion a few months ago about sharpening an impulse hardened saw with a purpose made japanese diamond saw file. I haven't tried it yet, but this weekend could be the weekend, as I have a kataba with a "utility" blade that didn't do so well cutting plywood, which it was advertised to tolerate well.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Some time ago, while helping a friend install some wood flooring, I was using my (somewhat cheap) Japanese saw to cut some trim when I hit a hidden nail - it utterly ruined the tall, electrically hardened teeth. I bought a replacement blade easily enough, but it got me to thinking: what if the saw had Western-style teeth that I could resharpen myself, not with a special file but with an ordinary triangular file? I really like using the pull saw, but I dislike the idea of replacing the blade every so often or sending it to a master sharpener (matate? I think that's right).

So I'm asking here: has anyone ever seen a Japanese-style pull saw with western-style user-sharpenable teeth? I've looked every so often on the internet for something like this, but every time I do so the only thing I come up with are the same old "Japanese vs. Western" comparisons.

Sure, all but one of my Japanese saws are hand made, thus not impact hardened, thus sharpenable. OTOH, replaceable hardened blades may come in very handy and usually cost a lot less than sharpening.

Pam

[Stuart Tierney]

Never.

Well, except for the nezumi-ba saws that have teeth that are dead ringers for a Western cross cut...


You know something, I've run into nails with a saw once or thrice before. One saw chewed through the nail (brad) pretty easily. Not a shearing cut like a flooring saw is supposed to do, it just cut away until it got through. The blade was blunter, but still cut well enough. Another, completely blunted. A Western saw came out with rounded teeth.

Now I know I'm a special case since these high falootin' Japanese saws are a local product, but I reckon the 20 minutes to run off and buy a new blade versus the 30 minutes to rebuild the teeth is a better deal, especially when you're on the clock. Cost of a blade or a decent saw file are so close to be a non-event.

But that's just me I suppose.

I'll be blunt (hah!), a replacement blade is usually within arms reach or on speed dial for me as it is.

And yet, I've already warned one of the saw makers he's going to show me how to touch up a saw so I can show you folk. He thought I was kidding at first, then he started spilling the beans. It's really not that difficult so long as you have your wits about you, and if you can do an acceptable job on a Western saw, you can do an acceptable job on a Japanese one too.

(But at the same time, the Japanese version should be sent back periodically for a full service. Think of them like an exotic car. You can change the oil, you can change a tyre. But once the valve covers come off, it's time to seek professional assistance. Maybe you can fix it, but if you can't you've got a pile of very expensive lawn ornament.)

Stu.

[Bryan Ericson]

This is all extremely interesting. Now I'm starting to get curious - how much of the "Japanese-ness" of the saw is due to the pulling action, and how much is due to the tooth configuration? What I'm thinking here is, if I take my old broken-tooth blade and cut the hardened teeth of (what remains of them, anyway), and then cut western crosscut teeth in it, will I still like using it as much as I did before it was broken? At this point, it's not about time vs expense, it's about satisfying my curiosity.

[David Weaver]

If you want to file rip, the rip teeth on a rip tooth saw are not that much different, the rake is just a lot more aggressive on a pull saw because you are not getting any weight on the cut like you would with a western saw, and you need that aggressiveness to get bite and good cutting action.

Crosscut, you'll never match the japanese tooth profile's performance, and even if you try, you'll still want aggressive rake on the pull or it will cut like a pig. 15 degree rake like in a western crosscut saw will never do.

That said, I would be surprised if the plate is very hard on an impulse hardened saw, and very surprised if it was hard enough to hold teeth well.

Be better off, as schtoo says, picking your saws carefully and finding a place to get the replacement blades. Gyochuko and Z both have replacement blades inexpensive enough to ignore sharpening, and the impulse hardened teeth stay sharp long enough that they'll last a couple of times longer than a sharpening on a western saw. Both will also leave a finish that you'll never match hand sharpening a western saw. they really are a bargain, and there's a reason not many people diddle around sharpening a japanese disposable saw.

[Bryan Ericson]

Crosscut, you'll never match the japanese tooth profile's performance, and even if you try, you'll still want aggressive rake on the pull or it will cut like a pig. 15 degree rake like in a western crosscut saw will never do.

I guess that's what I was wondering. Regular western-style crosscut teeth like I would file on a backsaw won't work.


Be better off, as schtoo says, picking your saws carefully and finding a place to get the replacement blades. Gyochuko and Z both have replacement blades inexpensive enough to ignore sharpening, and the impulse hardened teeth stay sharp long enough that they'll last a couple of times longer than a sharpening on a western saw. Both will also leave a finish that you'll never match hand sharpening a western saw. they really are a bargain, and there's a reason not many people diddle around sharpening a japanese disposable saw.

OK, my curiosity is satisfied. I'll look around for a good source for replacement blades - Lee Valley still has that free shipping going on, right? :)