Panel saws: Opinions?

[paul cottingham]

SO I'm thinking of biting the bullet and buying a panel saw. I am thinking of the Pax saw Lee Valley sells http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=46886&cat=1,42884,63338&ap=1 Or maybe the wenzloff panel saw http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=64758&cat=1,42884,57152 or the Lie-Nielsen http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=s-ps. The pax saw is cheaper, to be sure, but is it that much worse than the Wenzloff or Lie-Nielsen? I want to start ripping my lumber by hand, and these seem like a good choice. I would consider one of BadAxe' rehabbed saws as well. Any feedback would be welcome.

I am willing to learn how to sharpen, of course, would a good sharpening make the Pax a better saw? A strange question, I know, but still a valid one, I think. I would like my first saw to be new, or professionally rehabbed, so I'm not learning to saw while learning to rehab, etc.

[David Weaver]

A good disston #7 without broken teeth would be something else to consider. If you're willing to sharpen, one of the best ways to get a considerable amount of experience is cleaning up teeth on a new-to-you saw.

I don't know what is out there for what price now, but I have a very dark with sort of a worn handle #7 that cost me $25. I would think that you could find something very clean for $50.

it's hard to ever recommend a new non-premium saw when there are so many good older saws out there that are as good as today's premium saws.

(by the way, if you are going to do serious ripping by hand, you will want to keep your eyes open for a good carpenter saw. What do you plan on ripping, 4/4 stock? If so, long rips? and how finely? I like a 5 1/2 or 6 pt rip saw for 4/4 stuff, coarser is OK, too for wood that's not too hard. )

If you are tall, you may really wish you went with carpenters saws for ripping.

[Joel Goodman]

I got a rip and a crosscut from Daryl Weir and was happy with what he supplied -- they were sharpened and ready to go. Why do you want a panel saw as opposed to a longer saw? But in any case go with a rehabbed vintage saw or a new premium saw and forget the Pax.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

I have the 22" Pax rip. The handle sucks, the teeth are over set and it wasn't adequately sharpened when it came to me; however the steel is pretty decent. I don't think it's worth the premium over ordering a reconditioned 5 ppi rip Disston. If you do plan on ripping lumber by hand I do encourage you to get something larger than a panel saw, however. The exact length differs depending on your body; for my arms a 26" is about right, to go from almost completely withdrawn to the handle touching the lumber in a single stroke. Disston made suitable rip saws in ranges from 24" to 30" (possibly more), but the 24"-28" is usually considered the usual sweet spot.

[george wilson]

I don't know of any medium priced saws that aren't pretty soft compared to a good old Disston,or other good OLD saw. Of course,I haven't tried them all,but I'd definitely get an old Disston and clean it up.

I consider the new crop of premium saws made from 1095 to be better than any old saw. They are harder than any old saw I have ever sharpened at 52 R.C.. files don't last as long filing them,but they certainly pay off by staying sharp longer.

If we are going to be having Mexican files,I don't know if the Mexican files would sharpen a 1095 spring steel saw. David is much more up on available new made files. I am fortunate to have a large cache of NOS files,and haven't had to buy new files,except for 8" Nicholson smooth files. So far,they have all still been USA marked,and o.k.. The main difference between them and older files by them is that they are not quite as thick,and their tangs are not tapered in thickness. I hate the plastic wrapping as you can't check them for straightness. Sometimes they have an "S" curve to them,and aren't good either side. I take those back. St least I can use the convex side of a simple "C" curve when filing a flat surface.

[Jim Matthews]

On a whim, I tried a wood handle Sandvik Crosscut off that auction site which cuts like stink.

I have a nothing special Disston filed to rip that cuts straight and fast.

Neither cost more than $30.

I genuinely like the Sandvik stuff, there may even be some currently available - you know - over there...

[Marc Jones]

I couldn't agree more. Last fall, wanting to start ripping by hand, I got the Pax from Lee Valley. I was even initially pleased with it, in my complete ignorance about what a real rip saw could do. This spring, while visiting family, I came across a family-run saw sharpening service whose owner also restores old handsaws. This fine gentleman, who has earned my undying gratitude, set me up with a freshly sharpened 5 ppt 28" E.C. Atkins No. 51. He charged $35 and apologized that the price was so high. When I got home I layed into some 8/4 stock and could not believe the difference. For about 1/3 of the price, the Atkins saws about three times faster. The handle is beautifully done and is a joy to hold - even though I'm a lefty and it's a thumb-hole handle shaped for the right handed. Here's to vintage saws!

[David Weaver]

If we are going to be having Mexican files,I don't know if the Mexican files would sharpen a 1095 spring steel saw.

Yeah, no problem.

The only saws I've run into that I couldn't file were old ones that must've been defective. I still have the disston #7 that I asked about last year, it has to be 60 hardness or so, completely defective. I ruined three single cut files on it (thinking the first two were defective) before i stopped (and made no progress with them - just turned all of their teeth into a flat shiny area), and then per your advice used a nice NOS us made double cut simonds saw and managed to get enough off of the teeth to get it a tiny bit sharper before that file was ruined, too. when i got it, the factory teeth were still on it, though it had been used enough to break the handle and wear off some of the finish. The teeth were rounded dull a bit, but none of them had any more than the normal rounded over edges (crosscut saw). I have no idea what to do with it, I wouldn't dare remove the set. I figure I'll use it to cut 2x4s or something ratty and just throw it away when it's done. I'll bet someone got it, dulled it, tried to file it and then threw it aside.

The other file killer I have is the S&J 12 tpi 26 inch carpenter saw that I showed a picture of on here. It is not so hard that you can't file it, but it ruins files fast, and it's only hard on the ends. The middle is close to normal. No clue why that is. I burnt through three grobet files and a nicholson mexico getting the frown out of it and moving the teeth around a little (whoever had been filing it didn't believe in jointing, and somehow they managed to get areas of it to have probably 8-10tpi for a few teeth while the next bunch would be 13-14 or so, and they had 45 degrees of fleam on it with some teeth that you couldn't even describe as cows and calves, because there are no cows big enough to match the proportional difference in size vs. calves that some of the teeth had vs. the others)

Generally, though, the older ones are softer than 1095, but I haven't yet gotten a branded file that has trouble with the 1095 even though it's a bit harder, and 99% of the time, the older saws that are new enough to have gone through a modernized saw making facility (late 1800s?) are very good and uniform, and pretty good at holding the edge on their teeth.

I do wish we could get the NOS files that were made of higher carbon steel than the files are now. I wonder what the old german craftspeople in PA did with their saws and files, how they stretched them out, because they really liked to stretch everything out as far as it would go, and then keep it after it was worn out, anyway.

[Pedder Petersen]

Yeah, no problem.

The only saws I've run into that I couldn't file were old ones that must've been defective. I still have the disston #7 that I asked about last year, it has to be 60 hardness or so, completely defective. I ruined three single cut files on it (thinking the first two were defective) before i stopped (and made no progress with them - just turned all of their teeth into a flat shiny area),


Hi Dave,

I have a blade in the vise that is like yours. Some of the stock we got was tooo hard. (It nearly killed my retoother.) I knew that sawblades have the correct temper when they are blue. So I put one blade in the oven until it was blue. Now I could file it, but because my oven is to small, I had to bow the blade and the bow is there.

With the other blade I blued only the toothline with the heat gun. It works! Blue without bow. And I can tell from filing that the steel is not to soft now.

Cheers
Pedder

Disclaimer:
So read carefully: I don't tell anybody to do this on his saw. Just said what works on mine. :)

[Chris Fournier]

I have the Pax saws that you are wondering about and they are great saws. I sharpen mine myself and they see a lot of use, I am very happy with the results. A panel saw is a tool that sees some pretty hard use and gets knocked about in the cut a bit. I would not want an expensive fancy saw for this operation as every bump and bruise would make me cringe. I do like the LN saws for joinery work where things move slower and the saw is not going to get roughed up.

I take my panel saw to sites and my off-site lumber storage facility. I would not take a $200 saw out of my shop. 22" is about as short a panel saw as I would want.

A well sharpened Pax is a very decent tool. I don't have access to used Disstons in my area so I don't chase that particular holy grail; I bought the Paxs and got on with the sawing.

[David Weaver]

Hi Dave,

I have a blade in the vise that is like yours. Some of the stock we got was tooo hard. (It nearly killed my retoother.) I knew that sawblades have the correct temper when they are blue. So I put one blade in the oven until it was blue. Now I could file it, but because my oven is to small, I had to bow the blade and the bow is there.

With the other blade I blued only the toothline with the heat gun. It works! Blue without bow. And I can tell from filing that the steel is not to soft now.

Cheers
Pedder

Disclaimer:
So read carefully: I don't tell anybody to do this on his saw. Just said what works on mine. :)

Pedder, that's a great idea! I might be able to make a useful saw out of it (it's pretty much unused and the teeth are all in good shape because they were too hard to wear). And here I was going to pull the saw nuts out of it and throw it away at some point.

[David Keller NC]

Paul - Take a close look at the totes (handles) on the Pax, Lie-Nielsen and Wenzlof saws. That should instantly tell you the "why" of the price difference, and that doesn't even consider the appropriateness of the steel, tooth sharpening and set. So here's the logic train:

If you buy the Wenzlof/Lie Nielsen, use it lightly and then decide hand-ripping is not for you, you can sell it for perhaps 80% of what you paid for it, and pretty much instantly on SMC.

If you buy the Pax, you may have a hard time selling it for 1/2 of what you paid for it.

Even if you decide you don't like hand-ripping, the Lie-Nielsen and/or Wenzlof can be used to rip large tenon cheeks.

[john brenton]

Yeah, it's too bad about those Pax saws. They aren't bad, but I think some bad reviews have left them undesirable. A few months about on Ebay I saw a set of a brand spanking new in the box full sized taper ground rip, a full size x-cut, and a panel saw with a "buy it now" of something like $120. It was listed for weeks and weeks. It was a steal, but I guess nobody wanted to take the plunge. If I hadn't committed to bow saws I would have bought it in a heartbeat.

to
Paul - Take a close look at the totes (handles) on the Pax, Lie-Nielsen and Wenzlof saws. That should instantly tell you the "why" of the price difference, that that doesn't even consider the appropriateness of the steel, tooth sharpening and set. So here's the logic train:

If you buy the Wenzlof/Lie Nielsen, use it lightly and then decide hand-ripping is not for you, you can sell it for perhaps 80% of what you paid for it, and pretty much instantly on SMC.

If you buy the Pax, you may have a hard time selling it for 1/2 of what you paid for it.

even if you decide you don't like hand-ripping, the Lie-Nielsen and/or Wenzlof can be used to rip large tenon cheeks.

[Gary Curtis]

While building my shop inventory, I did a lot of cruising on eBay. I picked up one or two Pax panels saws. But I also acquired a new Shark saw. It was made in Sweden but has that Japanese tooth pattern so it cuts both rip and crosscut.

And it is able to cut on the pull and push strokes so it is really fast. Using it just once really spoiled me. I'm selling the others, though they are new.

[David Keller NC]

Yeah, it's too bad about those Pax saws. They aren't bad, but I think some bad reviews have left them undesirable.

They'll certainly cut wood - in the way my 90's era Sandvik will cut wood. But Wenzlof, Lie-Nielsen, Adria, Bad Axe, etc... are making saws to a considerably higher standard, and I'd think most dedicated hand tool users would want saws that both cut and look/feel to a higher standard.

Personally speaking, I consider my sandvik to be highly appropriate to a place in a homeowner's garage, where a 2X4 in softwood needs to be very roughly cut in two once in a great while. I keep it around to remind me that buying on the low end of the scale is a recipe for spending money frivilously (because I'm going to wind up buying the same thing again).

Much like buying a cheap (in both senses of the word) new car versus buying a considerably higher quality used car, if the money simply wasn't there to purchase one of the new saws made to quality standards of the 18th and 19th century (perhaps early 20th century), then I would actually buy one of the saws from the 19th century. In this country, that typically means Disston, but there were many fine makers in Britain around the same time.

[Kent A Bathurst]

What do you guys think about the Wenzloff half-back saw @ LV? The reason[s] it got my interest is that I don't really have much need for a true panel saw, and I don't really have much need for a tenon saw bigger than my true tenon saws, but the times pop up enough that I could us something that would do fairly well on either. I also like the short blade because of the tenon application, and that length wouldn't really hinder my use as a panel saw.

Or - is it one of those cases where trying to do too many things means none of them get done well?

Thanks

[Joel Goodman]

Just to add to my previous post recommending Daryl Weir as a source for reconditioned handsaws here's his email -- weir@grics.net
No connection -- just a satisfied customer.

[Derek Cohen]

What do you guys think about the Wenzloff half-back saw @ LV? The reason[s] it got my interest is that I don't really have much need for a true panel saw, and I don't really have much need for a tenon saw bigger than my true tenon saws, but the times pop up enough that I could us something that would do fairly well on either. I also like the short blade because of the tenon application, and that length wouldn't really hinder my use as a panel saw.

Or - is it one of those cases where trying to do too many things means none of them get done well?

Thanks

Hi Kent

I have one and it is a great saw. Its shorter blade (18") is tailor-made for cross-cutting at a bench like mine - one that is backed against a wall and has less room for a full sized panel saw (22").

Picture from several years ago when it was brand new - Handle in Tasmanian Blackwood (near-identical to Koa) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Wenzloff%20Halfback%20saw/Wenzloffhalfbacksaw1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kent A Bathurst]

Derek - gratzi.

It was the shorter blade that I found interesting......for any large-scale cutting, I'll find a way to burn some electrons, but sometimes it would be a lot easier [and cleaner] to grab a panel saw than the circular saw, etc. From you photo, it looks like it would work well for some oversized tenons as well?

[Tony Shea]

I've always wanted to get a half back saw. Not real sure that the half back has much use on the saw, but have never used one to find out. I just like the size of the saw for the exact reason Derek commented on. I do a lot of cutting at the bench with my full size Disston's. I think a smaller saw like the half back would be handy. But its one of those things that really isn't neccessary as all my other saws will get the job done.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Hi Kent

I have one and it is a great saw. Its shorter blade (18") is tailor-made for cross-cutting at a bench like mine - one that is backed against a wall and has less room for a full sized panel saw (22").

Picture from several years ago when it was brand new - Handle in Tasmanian Blackwood (near-identical to Koa) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Wenzloff%20Halfback%20saw/Wenzloffhalfbacksaw1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Not a question about Mike W's half back saw (I got two 16"-rip & cross-cut), but about the Blum (I think) plane in the background. Was that a purchase and if so, after a few years, what is your long term impression of it?

Hope all is wel with you and yours!

T.Z.

[lowell holmes]

I have an old Warranted Superior 8 tpi crosscut saw that has been cut off to panel saw size and filed to 8 tpi rip. It saws on a line and is a delight to use. It was a junker I never used.

I will sharpen the front two inches cross cut and then see how it works as a tenon saw. I expect it to be great as it cuts fast and stays on a line. Being 8 tpi, it produces a relatively smooth surface.

I also have an old D8 10 tpi panel saw that cuts fast and true. It was an absolute Ebay junker. Shipping costs were more than the purchase price. It's not a beauty, but it sharpened up nice and cuts like it is supposed to.

I also have three LN saws, so I like the pretty ones too. However, you don't have to spend a lot of money to get good saws. Tom Law's video on sharpening saws will take the mystery out of sharpening.

[Derek Cohen]

Not a question about Mike W's half back saw (I got two 16"-rip & cross-cut), but about the Blum (I think) plane in the background. Was that a purchase and if so, after a few years, what is your long term impression of it?

Hi Tony

Great to see you pop your head up every now-and-then. (And the scraper burnishers are still going strong - one carbon and the other D2, folks - I always think of you when I use them).

The Blum is a terrific plane. The Fore plane is one of those that just feels "right" in the hand - beautifully balanced. It has a 50 degree bed, so is good for most woods. The teeny-weeny blade (smaller than an old style Gillette razor blade) takes seconds to hone with my method (detailed in my review).

The picture of that fore plane was taken three years ago at a time when I had to move from my shop owing to renovations. I kept aside the Blum smoother and fore plane, and the HNT Gordon equivalents, and spent the summer using them side-by-side in my new (temporary) shop under the vines in the garden at rear of our house. Gary Blum had sent them to me for review along with his sharpening gear.

The full review is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes_html_7c89a240.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

If your interested, there's a really good 10tpi D8 in the want adds.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Not a question about Mike W's half back saw (I got two 16"-rip & cross-cut), but about the Blum (I think) plane in the background. Was that a purchase and if so, after a few years, what is your long term impression of it?

Hi Tony

Great to see you pop your head up every now-and-then. (And the scraper burnishers are still going strong - one carbon and the other D2, folks - I always think of you when I use them).

The Blum is a terrific plane. The Fore plane is one of those that just feels "right" in the hand - beautifully balanced. It has a 50 degree bed, so is good for most woods. The teeny-weeny blade (smaller than an old style Gillette razor blade) takes seconds to hone with my method (detailed in my review).

The picture of that fore plane was taken three years ago at a time when I had to move from my shop owing to renovations. I kept aside the Blum smoother and fore plane, and the HNT Gordon equivalents, and spent the summer using them side-by-side in my new (temporary) shop under the vines in the garden at rear of our house. Gary Blum had sent them to me for review along with his sharpening gear.

The full review is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes_html_7c89a240.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

When you wear the carbide out Derek, give me a holler! When I pick up the marking knife you sent me, I also think of your friendship.

I remember reading your review of the planes in 2008 and thought I would ask how they fared since! I was close to buying one a few years back but I picked up a couple of Mike W.'s saws as a "treat" instead. I will probably pick one up or a Gordon in the coming weeks, as I want to try some "wood on wood"!

T.Z.