From Warm to Orange - the Ambering of Finish

[Matt Hutchinson]

The trials and tribulations of finishing.

When I started out finishing I immediately went with what was familiar: General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. I love the stuff. A wipe on poly, with great working characteristics and durability. Plus it can be buffed with no problem.

But over time I have noticed that I don't prefer the "extreme" ambering that it seems to cause. It looks great on cherry and walnut, but on lighter woods like ash and maple it turns very orange over time.

199701

The above picture is maple.

Currently I have been experimenting with shellac, which gives the wood a nice warm tone, but doesn't amber as severely. However, application is a little more problematic, especially on deep, open mouthed vessels/vases.

I have also played with rattle can lacquer, but have not been terribly impressed with the results. Again, vase forms present a problem.

Of course, water based polys and water based lacquers don't impart any amber tone whatsoever (except for products like Enduro-Var), but spraying is generally the easiest means of application.

I've tried shellac as a sealer, followed by wipe on poly, but the bond wasn't strong and the buffer smeared the poly across the shellac at times (even after a week of cure time). Maybe I just sanded the shellac too fine before applying the poly, but I haven't experimented with it any more.

SO.......
Anyone have a finishing process for light/white woods that warms them a little without turning severely orange over time?

Thanks!

Hutch

[Jim Burr]

Wow Hutch...beautiful curl!!! Maybe a Waterlox or if $$ isn't an option...maybe CA just because it starts clear, soaks in and is buildable and almost indestructible.

[Ed Morgano]

Wow Hutch...beautiful curl!!! Maybe a Waterlox or if $$ isn't an option...maybe CA just because it starts clear, soaks in and is buildable and almost indestructible.


Matt, no help to you here. I just wanted to ask what CA was. I think someone should make a list of acronyms used here and post it as a sticky. I've figured out some of them like WOP (wipe on poly) etc, but some still escape me.

[James Combs]

Matt, no help to you here. I just wanted to ask what CA was. I think someone should make a list of acronyms used here and post it as a sticky. I've figured out some of them like WOP (wipe on poly) etc, but some still escape me.

Ed, CA stands for CyanoAcrylic or in more common terms "supper glue". A lot of us use it as a finish especially on small items such as pens, bottle stoppers, etc.

Do a search on "CA" if you are interested in the details of finishing with CA.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Try General Finishes High Performance which I buy from Woodcraft. It is a H2O based poly which dries gin clear to a very durable surface, but I haven't tried spraying since I don't have the equipment. The trick is to not over brush the initial applications, and sand back between initial coats if it raises the grain. I generally find that 2 coats is sufficient for my purposes, which don't usually include a highly built surface finish or gloss.

[Deane Allinson]

I use Hope's 100% tung oil. I found that it changed the natural color very little. I have Maple furniture pieces built 30 years ago that still look bright. You can build up many layers and polish it out like a babies rear on closed grain hard woods. I like it a lot.
Deane

[John Keeton]

Matt, Jamie's suggestion is a good one, but I wanted to comment on the problem with applying WOP over shellac. Are you using dewaxed shellac? BLO, shellac, and WOP is kind of my standard finish, and I have not experienced what you describe.

[Matt Hutchinson]

I kinda figured the water-based products were gonna be the recommendation. For some reason I have been avoiding them like the plague up until now. Guess it's time to give 'em a try.

John,
Ya' know, I am not sure what my process was, and there could have been factors involved that I don't remember. I tried the WOP over a really REALLY built up shellac finish, but I will have to experiment a little more.

Also, I am very seriously contemplating purchasing an Apollo 1035 HVLP sprayer. I think it could make building the finish fast and easy. The Apollo rep said he just leaves the finish in the cup gun and it keeps just fine. Just turn it on and go whenever you need it. (He even said he has a cup gun for each of his finishes. Great idea, but not in my budget any time soon.)


Thanks,
Hutch

[Prashun Patel]

I think yr best bet is a blonde shellac or tung oil. These will add modest warmth and 'gold' without getting to amber.

[Tim Rinehart]

I kinda figured the water-based products were gonna be the recommendation. For some reason I have been avoiding them like the plague up until now. Guess it's time to give 'em a try.

John,
Ya' know, I am not sure what my process was, and there could have been factors involved that I don't remember. I tried the WOP over a really REALLY built up shellac finish, but I will have to experiment a little more.

Also, I am very seriously contemplating purchasing an Apollo 1035 HVLP sprayer. I think it could make building the finish fast and easy. The Apollo rep said he just leaves the finish in the cup gun and it keeps just fine. Just turn it on and go whenever you need it. (He even said he has a cup gun for each of his finishes. Great idea, but not in my budget any time soon.)


Thanks,
Hutch

Hutch, As John mentioned, if you want to use shellac as a base for WOP or other finishes...a good idea especially for some problematic wood that doesn't like WOP by itself or where you need to seal some grain, it needs to say "wax free" or "de-waxed" to allow other finishes to adhere. If shellac is your final finish, then it doesn't matter if de-waxed and may (not verified by me) make the final buffed appearance improve.

[Trevor Howard]

Matt, no help to you here. I just wanted to ask what CA was. I think someone should make a list of acronyms used here and post it as a sticky. I've figured out some of them like WOP (wipe on poly) etc, but some still escape me.

Try this link Ed
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?27040-List-Of-Acronyms-Updated-12-1-05

[Matt Hutchinson]

...it needs to say "wax free" or "de-waxed" to allow other finishes to adhere.

Yeah, I don't let the waxed shellac in my shop. I don't want to accidentally grab the wrong stuff. :D


Hutch

[Rob Cunningham]

" I tried the WOP over a really REALLY built up shellac finish,"

That could be part of your adhesion problems. Try your finish schedule with just one or two THIN coats of de-waxed shellac. Use the topcoat to build up your finish, not the shellac.

[Rick Markham]

I'll tell you what I do, it's a version of what John K, and some other folks on here use. Shellac, is really great stuff, but there are lots of types of shellac, and lots of types of shellac mixes. If you want to get something from the box stores, that works, (I will admit it's what I use) is Zinsser Bulls Eye Seal Coat. It's a 100% dewaxed blonde shellac (2lb cut).

The trick to shellac, is that it dries super quick, the first few coats, the temptation is to apply more and more (because you can) but it's better to give it a nice thin even coat, allow it to dry to touch, then a second very thin coat. If you let that cure (several hours or overnight) then sand it back with 600 grit. I personally will start applying my WOP at this point. But you could (if your a super, ultra patient, human being) could actually do a French polish using only the shellac. That's a whole other can of worms, but it is one of the most beautiful and perfect finishes. If that interests you PM me and I can point you to several experts on SMC at French polishing. I have some ideas on how to expedite the process using buffing, but I haven't tried them yet.

If you take your time with the shellac, and the WOP you will be fine. They actually work very well together, if you follow the same rules, very thin coats of both, and allow them to dry before applying the next one. The temptation is to be too heavy handed and both are super thin finishes and end up making a mess and more work. If your still frustrated let us know, I've got a few more tricks that really helped me out.

Edited to add: Shellac has a shelf life, so don't go buying a ton of premixed shellac. If the stuff you have has been around for more than about 6 months go get some new shellac. It doesn't "cure" right after it gets old, and may be part of your problem with the WOP not wanting to stick to it. If you buy flakes and mix your own, make only enough for what you will use in a few months.

[Mark Levitski]

Hutch, try posting your thread over on the finishing forum. Plenty of experience to be tapped there. You might try as others have suggested either Waterlox or tung oil. I use Waterlox original a lot. I recently tried a polymerized tung oil from Lee Valley that works well too. This leaves a more homogeneous finish between the end grain and the facegrain, and between the solid and more punky parts of a piece. A lot of times one coat is enough. It can, however, be buffed up to a sheen after cured. It is like standard tung oil, just dries quicker. Waterlox (tung oil based) is probably more protective because it is a varnish. Both shellac and lacquer are way more trouble to apply, but if you are looking for an extreme gloss, on-the-wood finish, one of these can be learned and used.

[Prashun Patel]

Matt-
Why not just use shellac - without any WOP on top?

[Matt Hutchinson]

Matt-
Why not just use shellac - without any WOP on top?

Most of what I have been making for the last year has been getting a shellac finish, and I like it quite a bit. I'm mostly looking for any ideas that I don't already know about, or find an even easier method of finishing. I figured it was worth a try, especially since not all my pieces are well suited for shellac.

But I now have a new toy in the finishing arsenal. I shall gloat shortly. :D

Hutch