CA glue, cocobolo, and cloudy finish

[Ron Kahn]

I am having trouble finishing my cocobolo pens with CA glue. I am initially using a medium CA glue and then two coats of thick CA glue. I am sanding with 400 grit between coats and using a buffing compound followed by wax after the last coat. After finishing, the surface is reasonable, but there is still a cloudy quality to the finish. Yes, I know that the oil may be giving me problems, but I am not sure what to do to get around this issue. Any suggestions? Would it be unreasonable to run away from the problem altogether and just use a few layers of wax or alternatively an oil-based varnish???

[Tim Thiebaut]

Not sure if this will help you or not, but before I apply a finish to anything, but especialy cocobolo and other oily woods I clean the surface with Mineral Spirts throughly, this will help to get rid of the surface oils and may help your finish...

[John Hart]

I thought the same thing as Tim. :)

[Ben Brown27]

A couple of things I've done in the past. I use thin CA exclusively for my ca finishes. Unless the wood is really oily, it usually dries quick enough to seal the oil. If I am working with something that is especially oily, I will do a quick spray of sanding sealer let it dry completely and hit it with a 600 grit sandpaper before my CA finish.

[Peter Fabricius]

Hi Ron;
Cleaning (degreasing) the oliy woods is essential. Using Lacquer Thinner has worked for me in the past. Apply the first coat of CA about one minute after the cleaning. Just enough time for the Thinner to evaporate.
Hope it works for you.
Peter F.

[David E Keller]

I don't think you'll be happy with a wax finish alone... It just doesn't hold up to things that are handled. If you've used the same technique in the past with other woods and had success, I don't think you need to change you finish. Cleaning the oil off is a good idea, and sometimes I'll follow that with a quick coat of shellac before building the CA.

The only other thing I can think of... Is the CA getting old? I've had trouble in the past with old bottles of CA

[Karl Card]

usually there are 2 reasons why ca doesnt work, 1 is because of oil content 2 is because the wood isnt dry yet. When an oily wood is used I have noticed that I get a cloudy finish. What you can do is use yoru choice of chemical to get rid of the oil but you pretty much have to get rid of it all. At that point I dont know that the wood will eventually split being that oil is part of its make up.. I was having so many different outcomes with ca that I just turned to something else. But I have to admit that wehn a ca finish does come out right it is a very nice finish.

[Aaron Wingert]

Well I'm going to be the contrarian here I guess! I CA finish all of my cocobolo duck calls, and absolutely never do any prep work to the wood with respect to removing the oil. I sand the wood to 600 grit and that is all. I have CA finished lignum vitae, every member of the rosewood family, and even olive wood....Never had a CA finish fail or cloud up. No laquer thinner, no acetone, nothing.

Personally, I think you're going at CA finishing all wrong if you're touching it with 400 grit at all. You should not sand between coats of CA unless you're doing a grain fill to fill the open pores of porous wood. Simply lay the 2nd coat of CA right over the first, and so on. I use medium CA only, and I apply anywhere from 10-20 coats of it on my calls. I apply it one drop at a time with Viva paper towels. I use Satellite City non-CF aerosol activator after each coat to speed the process. After applying plenty of CA I wet sand with liberal amounts of water. I start with 1200 grit, then 1500, then 2000...All wet. The wet sanding will remove some of the CA, leaving a flat and smooth surface. Then I buff with tripoli and then white diamond on the Beall buffer, but you can use micro mesh all the way to 12,000 grit if you don't have a buffing system. I would not recommend using any polishing compound or "scratch remover" on the lathe with CA finishes. That's just my way of doing it after hundreds and hundreds of CA finished game calls.

I've found that too much heat will cloud CA. That's why I don't use thin CA for finishing, as it cures HOT. If you spend too long with the folded paper towel applied to the workpiece the glue starts to cure and you can booger the finish no matter what thickness of CA you use. Same holds true for pushing the paper towel into the workpiece with friction....The idea is to let the drop of CA flow off of the towel, not force it off. I don't care for thick CA for finishing personally.

Here's a mess of cocobolo bottle stoppers I just finished up, all finished with the method described above.
http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh446/thekctermite/IMG_5531.jpg

[Jim Burr]

Watch your accelerator use to Ron. Just a quick spritz or two from a couple feet away is fine. To heavy a coat, to close and to much accelerator can cause clouding. All other causes have been well covered!

[Russell Neyman]

Watch your accelerator use to Ron. Just a quick spritz or two from a couple feet away is fine. To heavy a coat, to close and to much accelerator can cause clouding. All other causes have been well covered!

I'm with Jim; accelerator often makes the CA glue cloudy and since it's a finish, I'd avoid it. You should be able to get a really great finish with two or three very thin coats of CA and no accelerator should be needed. As far as cleaning an oily wood like cocobolo or teak before applying a finish (or gluing it) you can often get away with skipping that step but why take a chance? Besides, the thinner will cause the last bit of rough grain to stand up, allowing you to give it one, last sweep with 400 grit. And we're all continuously trying to create that elusive "perfect project" aren't we?

[Aaron Wingert]

Please note that I was very specific about the brand of activator I use. It is the only one I've found that, when used sparingly and from a distance as Jim mentioned, does not cloud a CA finish. If you shoot it from 6" away and saturate the uncured glue, it'll cloud and bubble.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well I'm going completely against the consensus here but I have to ask... Why would you feel the need to put any finish on cocobolo? It is one of the easiest woods to "finish" in that all you have to do is polish it. It will polish to a glass like gloss without any additional material needed other than the oil in the wood itself. I would spin it as fast as you can and, starting with 400 grit, work up to 1200 or 1500 grit or higher if you have it. Then just use a tiny bit of hard wax (carnuba) and a soft cloth and the cocobolo will end up looking like a mirror. It will stay that way, needing only an occasional buffing with a soft cloth to maintain the polish.

[Jim Burr]

Well I'm going completely against the consensus here but I have to ask... Why would you feel the need to put any finish on cocobolo? It is one of the easiest woods to "finish" in that all you have to do is polish it. It will polish to a glass like gloss without any additional material needed other than the oil in the wood itself. I would spin it as fast as you can and, starting with 400 grit, work up to 1200 or 1500 grit or higher if you have it. Then just use a tiny bit of hard wax (carnuba) and a soft cloth and the cocobolo will end up looking like a mirror. It will stay that way, needing only an occasional buffing with a soft cloth to maintain the polish.

Unlike HF's or turnings with finials, pens are used and subjected to oils and acids from skin and job exposures. Mine end up being used in an environment of alcohol hand rub every few minutes. Since most customers don't want to re-sand, buff and wax their pens...nor do I for that matter...a usable finish is applied. CA has been used for years and if properly applied, is almost indestructible. The equal point of choosing a pen finish is shared between aesthetics and functionality...little more thought has to go into a pen finish.

[James Combs]

Unlike HF's or turnings with finials, pens are used and subjected to oils and acids from skin and job exposures. Mine end up being used in an environment of alcohol hand rub every few minutes. Since most customers don't want to re-sand, buff and wax their pens...nor do I for that matter...a usable finish is applied. CA has been used for years and if properly applied, is almost indestructible. The equal point of choosing a pen finish is shared between aesthetics and functionality...little more thought has to go into a pen finish.

Ditto what Jim said. I used wax type coatings specifically made for pens when I first started and have found that they do not last. I have already had to refinish some of these earlier pens under the warranty I have given my customers. So far I have never had a CA finished pen returned.

As far as de-oiling my pen blanks prior to applying the CA, I have never had a problem not cleaning the blank after turning and sanding. The only cleaning I do is to wipe the sanded blank down with a paper towel or if I have it handy I will blow it off with my air hose.

And BTW I use the paper towel method as described by Aaron Wingert except that my first coat is thin CA which stabilizes some of my softer and/or porous woods. I place a paper towel under the turned/sanded blank and dribble on the thin coat, let it set for a few seconds then wipe it off with a paper towel. If sometimes it ends up a little rough I will smooth it with 1200mm. Most of the time I can go straight to medium CA as Jim describes. I have not experienced any cloudiness in my finishes and I will hit the CA layers (not all), especially the last couple with accelerator. Just depends on the weather. Sometimes it dries faster then other times.

[Aaron Wingert]

I agree with what Jim's saying. Not to mention that CA only adds to the depth of the wood by giving it a glossy wet look. Put a CA finished cocobolo product next to a sanded and waxed cocobolo product and easily 90% of the people that reach for it will reach for the CA finished one in my experience. I have a pen that I made from cocobolo when I first started turning. On that pen I sanded to a high gloss and waxed it. It definitely does not look good anymore...All of its luster is gone, it looks dull. The same holds true for the duck calls I make. They're subjected to the elements, getting banged around, being soaked in swamp water and saliva. Without a rock solid finish in that environment, very few woods will hold retain any good looks or dimensional stability (including cocobolo). David I agree that on an art piece that doesn't really serve much function or get handled, carried or heavily used, a waxed finish looks nice.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...pens are used and subjected to oils and acids from skin and job exposures..."

Well, I don't make pens so I am in no position to argue one way or the other. But I have made a number of objects from cocobolo that are used every day. The thing that comes immediately to mind is my espresso tamper which has a better polish on it now than it did when I first made it, just from the oils in my hand and he constant rubbing. I'm sure that in an environment where it would be exposed to other materials like alcohol, this might not be the case. But then, in that kind of an environment, stabilized (resin impregnated) materials might be more suitable.

[Jim Burr]

"...pens are used and subjected to oils and acids from skin and job exposures..."

Well, I don't make pens so I am in no position to argue one way or the other. But I have made a number of objects from cocobolo that are used every day. The thing that comes immediately to mind is my espresso tamper which has a better polish on it now than it did when I first made it, just from the oils in my hand and he constant rubbing. I'm sure that in an environment where it would be exposed to other materials like alcohol, this might not be the case. But then, in that kind of an environment, stabilized (resin impregnated) materials might be more suitable.

That is a valid point...some woods with high oil content...Cocobolo...for instance; develop a great patina over time if used in predicable conditions. Pens are rubbed on clothing, tossed in car seats, left in the sun, stuck in couch cushions, rolled around desk drawers, and in the case of the gallery owner I supply...left on his boat in the Pacific NW for weeks at a time:rolleyes:. I have some Kabar kitchen knives with rosewood handles that I have to re-oil from time to time...obviously not the same quality as the tamper you made.

Aaron...I have tried both the plastic wrap and paper towel method of applying CA...why anyone in their right mind would use plastic wrap is beyond me!!:p It took 8 seconds for me to change:rolleyes: Paper towel is a great way to go...until someone finds a better way...;)

[Karl Card]

Well I'm going to be the contrarian here I guess! I CA finish all of my cocobolo duck calls, and absolutely never do any prep work to the wood with respect to removing the oil. I sand the wood to 600 grit and that is all. I have CA finished lignum vitae, every member of the rosewood family, and even olive wood....Never had a CA finish fail or cloud up. No laquer thinner, no acetone, nothing.

Personally, I think you're going at CA finishing all wrong if you're touching it with 400 grit at all. You should not sand between coats of CA unless you're doing a grain fill to fill the open pores of porous wood. Simply lay the 2nd coat of CA right over the first, and so on. I use medium CA only, and I apply anywhere from 10-20 coats of it on my calls. I apply it one drop at a time with Viva paper towels. I use Satellite City non-CF aerosol activator after each coat to speed the process. After applying plenty of CA I wet sand with liberal amounts of water. I start with 1200 grit, then 1500, then 2000...All wet. The wet sanding will remove some of the CA, leaving a flat and smooth surface. Then I buff with tripoli and then white diamond on the Beall buffer, but you can use micro mesh all the way to 12,000 grit if you don't have a buffing system. I would not recommend using any polishing compound or "scratch remover" on the lathe with CA finishes. That's just my way of doing it after hundreds and hundreds of CA finished game calls.

I've found that too much heat will cloud CA. That's why I don't use thin CA for finishing, as it cures HOT. If you spend too long with the folded paper towel applied to the workpiece the glue starts to cure and you can booger the finish no matter what thickness of CA you use. Same holds true for pushing the paper towel into the workpiece with friction....The idea is to let the drop of CA flow off of the towel, not force it off. I don't care for thick CA for finishing personally.

Here's a mess of cocobolo bottle stoppers I just finished up, all finished with the method described above.
http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh446/thekctermite/IMG_5531.jpg



Well I have to say that you make alot of sense.. ... I pretty much was thru with ca finish but I am going to try it again using the "recipe" you just stated.

[Ron Kahn]

I appreciate everyone's advice, thank you. I've had a few more successes and failures since my posting. I am using new CA and not using any activator. Cleaning with the mineral spirits did not seem to make a difference in my hands. Since the wood looks SO much duller after a wipe with mineral spirits, I am very hesitant to use it; it look much better after being cleaned with a sharp skew chisel. I had a few cloudy finishes with cleaning and a few drop-dead gorgeous finishes without the mineral spirits. I have stopped sanding between finishes and still manage to have a smooth finish at the end of the line. I used some wet-dry sand paper (just 400 followed by 600), followed by buffing compound and then beeswax, which gave me a nice finish. When I over-sanded afterwards with 220, 340, 400, 600 (and probably didn't wait long enough after curing--patience was never my strong suit) the finish became cloudy.

Thank you again for everyone's advice!

-Ron

BTW, once I nail the finish, what is the going price range for pens??

[Ron Kahn]

An additional comment.

I tried again; one half of my test half was cleaned with mineral spirits and the other was not. After the first two coats of CA, everything looked fine, but the third (or maybe it was the fourth) coat clouded right away. I did not sand at all this time around to avoid the heat.

I am wondering if the cocobolo was a bit of a red herring. Perhaps I did not wait long enough with this last CA coat, which resulted in its immediate clouding. Is this other's experience as well??

[Greg Keddy]

I appreciate everyone's advice, thank you. I've had a few more successes and failures since my posting. I am using new CA and not using any activator. Cleaning with the mineral spirits did not seem to make a difference in my hands. Since the wood looks SO much duller after a wipe with mineral spirits, I am very hesitant to use it; it look much better after being cleaned with a sharp skew chisel. I had a few cloudy finishes with cleaning and a few drop-dead gorgeous finishes without the mineral spirits. I have stopped sanding between finishes and still manage to have a smooth finish at the end of the line. I used some wet-dry sand paper (just 400 followed by 600), followed by buffing compound and then beeswax, which gave me a nice finish. When I over-sanded afterwards with 220, 340, 400, 600 (and probably didn't wait long enough after curing--patience was never my strong suit) the finish became cloudy.

Thank you again for everyone's advice!

-Ron

BTW, once I nail the finish, what is the going price range for pens??


Ron,

If you are sanding for very long with P400 or P600 and water (say, more than 10 seconds), you may be breaking through the CA film. Water makes the paper more aggressive as it keeps the grit clean. I dont know how long you are sanding or how many CA coats you have applied, but try sanding a little less and adding more CA coats. Also, I wouldnt advise sanding with anything more coarse than P600 wet/dry. FWIW, I start with micro mesh 1800 and move up through the MM grits to 4000 and get a durable, glass smooth finish.

For the pen prices, the vary widely in my experience, but for readily available wood with a slim pen kit $35 seems to be average.

[Alan Trout]

I do a lot of CA finishes. And I teach CA finish classes and do Demonstrations on CA finishes. I don't do many pens anymore and mostly do large pieces when compared to a pens or bottle stoppers. I have done a bunch of Cocobolo without a single problem ever. I sand to maybe 400 and then clean the surface with accelerator on a paper towel just damp. Then I apply thin 5cps CA to the surface 3 coats and then with a barley damp paper towel wipe the surface again with accelerator after the glue is dry to cure that layer. I do this after every 3rd coat until I feel I have enough build which is about 15 coats. then I rough sand to smooth any ridges with 400 to 600 depending on the ridges. Then I wet sand to 2000 with 3M Imperial color sanding paper with Safe T mineral spirits as it will not raise the grain if you sand through, and will not rust the lathe. I then will polish with Novus #3 and then #2 plastic polish on the lathe with pens. There are times I will buff a larger piece with Don Pencils Plastic and lacquer compound and then finish buffing with the Novus plastic polish. I have never found any significance between different paper towels I just buy what is on sale. I will tell you that you should never use BLO with any CA finishes as they will be doomed to eventual failure as I know from personal experience.

Anyone that has seen my pieces know that my finishes are crystal clear and scratch free.

Of course this is my method that I have developed with experimentation over the last several years. With my current techniques I have never had a failure. These are just a few of the pieces that have this finish.

Good Luck

Alan

[Lee Koepke]

One of the issues I have encountered is not sealing the ends of the blanks before wetsanding. It allows a tiny bit of moisture to enter the wood from under the ca and that has caused clouding for me

[Keith E Byrd]

I I will tell you that you should never use BLO with any CA finishes as they will be doomed to eventual failure as I know from personal experience.

Anyone that has seen my pieces know that my finishes are crystal clear and scratch free.

Of course this is my method that I have developed with experimentation over the last several years. With my current techniques I have never had a failure. These are just a few of the pieces that have this finish.

Good Luck

Alan

Can you elaborate on why not to use BLO with CA? I have been doing hat for a few months with great success. But I don't want to do something that fails.

[Alan Trout]

Kieth,

The BLO slows the cure rate to a crawl. I first started to notice that pens that I had done with the BLO process that the finish would continue to shrink over several weeks to months. What corked it for me was I decided that I would just remove the finish as I noticed to much shrinkage on a pen that was about 6 months old. I took the pen apart and started to cut the finish off with a skew. The CA fumes hit me in the face. While the surface was hard the underlying was not fully cured.

After I started my present method I found out that it was faster always had a better quality finish and did not get the excessive shrinkage. Yesterday I was teaching a class. I did two pen barrels complete with the pens together is less than 10 min. with a perfect high gloss scratch free finish.

I am not saying I have all the right answers but what I am saying is I have taught dozens of people my method to do the finish and the success rate is 100%. I am a big believer in the "KISS" principle in doing things. No reason to make it more difficult than needed.

Good Luck

Alan

[Keith E Byrd]

Thanks Alan - I am fairly new at turning and pens - have done about 15 pens - I will try your method - I tried without the blo the other day and made a mess out of a pen - had to sand it down and try it again. Also I didn't know you could take a pen apart and refinish - do you have to buy a special tool for disassembly?

[Alan Trout]

Kieth the transfer punch set is what I use to take pens apart. They can be had at Harbor Freight for less than 10 dollars. They work great. When you apply the thin CA just a quick swipe with the paper towel with just a light touch. I fold the paper towel to about 5/8" to 3/4" wide is all that is needed. and good luck. Let me know if you need any help.

Alan