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View Full Version : The Worst Craftsmen's Excuses : have some to add?



george wilson
06-26-2011, 2:20 PM
There are three that have most often been used where I worked:

1. "All the ones I have seen were made that way."

2. "That's the way I've always done it."

3. "If they had had it in the 18th.C.,they would have used it."

#1 is not the worst of the 3. But,I have seen this statement proved incorrect a number of times when A: the craftsman gets better "educated" on the range of things he "has seen." I have seen experienced master craftsmen make things like plane irons wrong for years,until the finally find an original one that wasn't just used to death,and the front of the blade dubbed over badly from years of having the burr wiped off. I've seen a lot of things carefully copied from grossly worn out originals.

#2 is a worse case. Usually accompanied by just plain stubbornness.

#3 is really a bad one. The 18th.C.piano a guy made,which had swirly mother of toilet seat plastic key coverings is a prime example. The builder,who considered himself very experienced was just too ignorant to locate a
source of some ivory.

Have you any to add? This could become a long and interesting thread.

glenn bradley
06-26-2011, 2:40 PM
"Close enough for government work"

I'll just add some credence that #2 is my favorite one to hate. I hear this one frequently at work . . . we're an I.T. department for a major university. Resist change??? My whole career is all about change. The very fact that something has been done a certain way for a period of time is an absolutely perfect reason to re-evaluate it. I can appreciate that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but, I also enjoy living in the modern world where we don't treat infection with whiskey or rely on lanterns for light (among other things) ;-)

george wilson
06-26-2011, 2:48 PM
I just admit that I do a lot of things the hard way.:)

Damon Stathatos
06-26-2011, 3:10 PM
...where we don't treat infection with whiskey...

Hey Glenn, speak for yourself. I treat everything with whiskey.

Harlan Barnhart
06-26-2011, 3:15 PM
"I didn't have the right tools..."

JohnT Fitzgerald
06-26-2011, 3:23 PM
My brother installed doors and windows for a number of years.

"close enough to caulk" was more than a saying, it was a way of life.

Jim Koepke
06-26-2011, 3:27 PM
2. "That's the way I've always done it."

That and, "this is the way we have always done it," has gotten me to turn red a few times.

Many of those places are no longer in existence because of refusal to change with the times and technology.

Close enough for government work is another one that kind of hits me the wrong way.

Another, "don't work so hard, it makes the rest of us look bad." No, I can not make someone look bad. It is they themselves that look lazy.

I am going to leave now since I do not want to start steaming at my ears just thinking about all the cockamamie excuses people come up with to do less than they are able.

jtk

Matt Evans
06-26-2011, 4:15 PM
Nobody will see it anyway. . .

Thats what the prints show. . .

Like the customers gonna notice. . .

Was running out of time. . .

Board was warped. . .

I have a whole slew of these that I hate hearing, and hear them all too often. I may not be perfect, and I may not do 100% perfect work 100% of the time, but I fess up to my mistakes or ignorance when confronted with a piece that doesn't look right, or someone pointing an error out. I hate excuses.

Jim Matthews
06-26-2011, 4:44 PM
"You ain't from around here, are ya?"

Local contractor, when asked why it should cost extra to have installed windows that actually open.

george wilson
06-26-2011, 4:46 PM
Man!! I'm going to have to stop saying anything as to why my photographs look bad.

Close enough for government work is an oldie!!

Don't work so hard...... was this from the Post Office! Had a friend who carried mail. She said if she "kept a clean route", meaning she delivered all the junk mail,the supervisor was happy,but it made her fellow carriers look bad,and they'd resent her!! A no win situation.

Ed Looney
06-26-2011, 4:50 PM
One that has lately rubbed me the wrong way is listening to some comment on dovetail joinery. Statements like the joinery is utilitarian so preciseness is not necessary, it will be covered by moulding anyway. That implies that substandard craftsmanship is acceptable as long as it is covered up so no one can see it.


Ed

george wilson
06-26-2011, 4:55 PM
One maintenance shop in the museum actually would get on one guy who made work that wouldn't be seen TOO GOOD. It took too much time to suit them.

I knew this topic would draw lots of responses!:)

Matt Evans
06-26-2011, 5:00 PM
Man!! I'm going to have to stop saying anything as to why my photographs look bad.


George, There are statements, like "in hindsight, I should have used my tripod. My apologies" Then there are excuses. . ."My camera doesn't take good photos, so these aren't clear." Statements I am alright with. I make them myself, oftentimes followed by an apology. I can't think of any examples that you made excuses, just statements.

In a few minutes I am posting pictures of something. I know my photos aren't great, based on my unwillingness to clean off the table on the porch where the light is best. Still, its my fault, not anything else's. Excuses shift blame. statements of fact often point to the underlying cause of a problem, but the responsibility for the problem remains where it should.


Eh, semantics.

mickey cassiba
06-26-2011, 5:05 PM
'Can't see it from my house' comes to mind...I mean, if you're not willing to make it the best you can, why take it on in the first place?

John Coloccia
06-26-2011, 5:30 PM
It's paint grade.

Jonathan McCullough
06-26-2011, 5:33 PM
1. "I would have cleaned that up but my chisel was dull. And it would have taken too long to sharpen it."
2. "That's industry standard!"
3. "All that glue there is actually stronger than the wood it's holding together!"
4. "It's Stickley inspired."
5. "You can't do that without a table saw (router, belt sander)."
6. "Don't you love how the zebrawood and the purpleheart just sorta come together?"
7. "You can't cut a curve with the bevel side of an incannel gouge. The bevel's not long enough to reference anything to."
8. "I won't buy a tool unless it's made in America. Unless it's made in Canada. So what I really mean is, I won't buy a tool unless it's made in North America. Like that Stanley stuff made in Mexico. Unless it's the Stanley stuff made in England. That's okay. We have a 'special relationship' with them. And Swiss Made tools, because they're really high quality. But absolutely no Chinese junk! Unless it's branded DeWalt, because that's an American company."

Ed Looney
06-26-2011, 6:32 PM
One maintenance shop in the museum actually would get on one guy who made work that wouldn't be seen TOO GOOD. It took too much time to suit them.

I knew this topic would draw lots of responses!:)

In the spirit of true craftsmanship can anything actually be made "too good". Sometimes the bureaucrats just don't get it, they can't recognize quality but they can spot a numerical shift in a double ledger accountants table in .02 seconds.

Ed

Tony Zaffuto
06-26-2011, 6:38 PM
1. You're not building a church piano

2. Good enough for the woman I'm married to and she don't care bout nothing

Heard the above so dayam many times many years ago from two guys I worked around, that I despise any humor whatsoever they were attempting. I'm no where near perfect, but I like to try my best and if it's not entirely pleasing to the eye, then I try to figure out why for doing better the next time.

Jason Roehl
06-26-2011, 6:45 PM
'Can't see it from my house' comes to mind...I mean, if you're not willing to make it the best you can, why take it on in the first place?

I've also seen guys who couldn't stay in business because they couldn't produce work commensurate with the price--meaning they overdid low-budget jobs, which won't keep food on the table for long.

You guys don't really expect BMW quality when you buy a Yugo, do you? My painting partner is also a pastor, having attended 4 years of seminary. One of his professors once remarked, "Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." As painters, we have to budget our time--we spend the most time and effort on the most visible areas. Inside a closet, above the door (never seen) is not going to get as much attention in a house as the foyer, or other areas subject to frequent scrutiny (when painting a bathroom, I'll sit on the toilet for a few minutes to double-check my work!)

We offer a range of quality--I simply can't put the same quality (time) into an apartment that I'm painting for $200 that I can a similar-sized house for which I'm charging 10 times that. But, I do well enough in that apartment that the landlord is satisfied--they want it done yesterday and on the cheap, so as long as it LOOKS freshly painted and is relatively neat, they're happy.

Mark Baldwin III
06-26-2011, 6:46 PM
8. "I won't buy a tool unless it's made in America. Unless it's made in Canada. So what I really mean is, I won't buy a tool unless it's made in North America. Like that Stanley stuff made in Mexico. Unless it's the Stanley stuff made in England. That's okay. We have a 'special relationship' with them. And Swiss Made tools, because they're really high quality. But absolutely no Chinese junk! Unless it's branded DeWalt, because that's an American company."
Reminds me of me, sort of. I look for N. American first, then down the line, until I find what I want. But I think I know the type you're really talking about.

"this is how I've always done it" is probably the one that I hate the most. When I'm questioned about something at work, and the first two words of that phrase come out of my mouth, I stop. Then I say, "how can we improve this." There is a flip side to that one though. I do a lot of process improvement work. I have some of my procedures so lean and mean that there is little, if any, room to improve it. Then some ninny from the front office tries to get me to spend 10 hours trying to find a way to shave 30 seconds off of an operation.
Not having the right tool is one that I have to fight against with myself. I am learning to make tools so that if I don't have the right one...I will very shortly have it!

Mark Baldwin III
06-26-2011, 6:51 PM
I almost forgot, here's a good one from the aviation world: "it ain't gonna crash on MY house." When you hear that, you should run run run.

Joe McMahon
06-26-2011, 6:51 PM
"This is how my wife wanted it."

mike holden
06-26-2011, 7:02 PM
In the spirit of true craftsmanship can anything actually be made "too good".

Ed
Actually it can. One case study from Toyota showed that a rear axle housing made to the tight end of cylindrical tolerance for the gears resulted in a gear whine, the parts from the wider end did not whine. Solution: widen the tolerence unilaterally! i.e. make it less precise.

This does not come up often, but it does.
Mike

Nicholas Lingg
06-26-2011, 7:15 PM
"The painter is the carpenter's friend"

Matt Evans
06-26-2011, 7:22 PM
Actually it can. One case study from Toyota showed that a rear axle housing made to the tight end of cylindrical tolerance for the gears resulted in a gear whine, the parts from the wider end did not whine. Solution: widen the tolerence unilaterally! i.e. make it less precise.

This does not come up often, but it does.
Mike

Mike. . .splitting hairs here but I would say the tolerance was wrong to begin with, which they found out after the part was made to spec. Just another case of engineering on paper/computer not quite matching up with real application. Which happens to me quite frequently. (sliding lid boxes, door panels, drawer sides, breadboard ends, etc. . .)

Anthony Oneli
06-26-2011, 7:25 PM
"It is what it is..."

"Close enough..."

Caspar Hauser
06-26-2011, 7:38 PM
"Close enough..."".. for jazz."

Scott Stafford
06-26-2011, 7:40 PM
remember... "Putty and paint will make you the craftsman you ain't!"

How did we ever arrive here? Shouldn't each generation strive to be better than the last?

If we had to declare a single year when overall craftsmanship started to decline, specifically which year would that be? Maybe shortly after WWII? I'm saying 1948. What do you think? Does a person's answer vary with their age? I'm 53.

Scott in Montana

ray hampton
06-26-2011, 8:10 PM
I "ve heard most of the lines that were given and got two that were not mentioned
use your BRAIN not your brawn
get the LEAD out

Don Dorn
06-26-2011, 9:47 PM
"Can't see it from the water tower".

"Good enough for the girls you date"

Chris Griggs
06-27-2011, 7:42 AM
1. "I would have cleaned that up but my chisel was dull. And it would have taken too long to sharpen it."
2. "That's industry standard!"
3. "All that glue there is actually stronger than the wood it's holding together!"
4. "It's Stickley inspired."
5. "You can't do that without a table saw (router, belt sander)."
6. "Don't you love how the zebrawood and the purpleheart just sorta come together?"
7. "You can't cut a curve with the bevel side of an incannel gouge. The bevel's not long enough to reference anything to."
8. "I won't buy a tool unless it's made in America. Unless it's made in Canada. So what I really mean is, I won't buy a tool unless it's made in North America. Like that Stanley stuff made in Mexico. Unless it's the Stanley stuff made in England. That's okay. We have a 'special relationship' with them. And Swiss Made tools, because they're really high quality. But absolutely no Chinese junk! Unless it's branded DeWalt, because that's an American company."

Yours are the best. Hilarious - It drives me crazy when I check out Lumberjocks or the FWW reader gallery and I see an otherwise wonderfully executed piece made out of paduk, purple heart, walnut, ebony, and zebrawood (ok, I'm exagerating, but you get idea)- I call these pieces clown makeup furniture.

Chris Griggs
06-27-2011, 7:47 AM
"Nobody will see it anyway. . ."

I am soooo guilty of this. I think if I didn't tell myself this periodically I would hate every project I complete - I guess there is a fine line between excuses and learning to live with some amount of imperfection. The excuses really become a problem when they start preventing one from aiming for perfection or from learning from mistakes.

David Weaver
06-27-2011, 8:16 AM
I haven't done any woodworking with people who are loose with the results, the folks I do anything with on a regular basis are machinists or MEs and they treat the woodworking like machine work in terms of precision, sometimes way over the top. I'm the worst person I know, and I can make plenty of excuses when my arms get tired, but I think of myself as an iterative woodworker - if I do it poorly, i will feel OK about it when I do it, but I will loop back later to clean it up (i.e., I don't do it twice, I just refine whatever I was working on). Somehow, that seems more mentally tolerable than doing it all the way through the first time, and it gives me fresh eyes to look at how good something has to be.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
06-27-2011, 8:35 AM
Hilarious - It drives me crazy when I check out Lumberjocks or the FWW reader gallery and I see an otherwise wonderfully executed piece made out of paduk, purple heart, walnut, ebony, and zebrawood (ok, I'm exagerating, but you get idea)- I call these pieces clown makeup furniture.

Ugh, I used to frequent a guitar builders forum, and some of the guys there would make guitars literally using all that wood, to contrast a flamed maple top dyed purple. And about seventeen kinds of pearl inlaid into the fingerboard. Some of 'em, while expertly crafted, were pretty gross.

george wilson
06-27-2011, 9:04 AM
THE BIGGEST problem with most craftsmen who HAVE become skilled is not their work,it is their lack of TASTE. I see it over and over again in anything from knife makers to guitar makers.

john brenton
06-27-2011, 9:09 AM
That's what I was going to say, John. It's the worst one...but I've used it a few times!


It's paint grade.

Tom Vanzant
06-27-2011, 9:12 AM
Amen George. I have canceled more than one publication over what was shown as "typical" woodworking projects... a pyramidal chest of drawers with stone and metal inlays? I think not!

John Coloccia
06-27-2011, 9:25 AM
THE BIGGEST problem with most craftsmen who HAVE become skilled is not their work,it is their lack of TASTE. I see it over and over again in anything from knife makers to guitar makers.

+1

There's a lot of people that simply just don't know when to stop.

george wilson
06-27-2011, 9:40 AM
I have let a subscription run out because of a lack of TRUTH.

Derek Cohen
06-27-2011, 9:55 AM
"That shows it's handmade".

Regards from Perth

Derek

john brenton
06-27-2011, 10:19 AM
There's always that place in the middle between "just slappin' it in" and "making love to it".
Just slappin it in makes you look like Jim Bob dope, and makin' love to it costs you money. A good job is a good job, and doing things right followed by taking care of whatever comes to your attention is usually good enough.


I've also seen guys who couldn't stay in business because they couldn't produce work commensurate with the price--meaning they overdid low-budget jobs, which won't keep food on the table for long.

You guys don't really expect BMW quality when you buy a Yugo, do you? My painting partner is also a pastor, having attended 4 years of seminary. One of his professors once remarked, "Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." As painters, we have to budget our time--we spend the most time and effort on the most visible areas. Inside a closet, above the door (never seen) is not going to get as much attention in a house as the foyer, or other areas subject to frequent scrutiny (when painting a bathroom, I'll sit on the toilet for a few minutes to double-check my work!)

We offer a range of quality--I simply can't put the same quality (time) into an apartment that I'm painting for $200 that I can a similar-sized house for which I'm charging 10 times that. But, I do well enough in that apartment that the landlord is satisfied--they want it done yesterday and on the cheap, so as long as it LOOKS freshly painted and is relatively neat, they're happy.

Bob Glenn
06-27-2011, 1:05 PM
George, you should remember this one. "Put the best face towards England"

Sean Hughto
06-27-2011, 1:24 PM
George, you've said a mouthful. Technical skill is far eaier and faster to develop than taste/design skill. If making original pieces, it is very hard for a hobbiest to get the taste part right on the first try. I think most successful furniture pieces are the results of many iterations/generations of building upon prior efforts that fall down in one way or another. Most iconic forms from Windsor chairs to Shaker tables and on and on, likely were not set on the first attempt. The problem, of course, is that some of the tasteless builders think they've hit a home run and don't learn from their missteps.

george wilson
06-27-2011, 1:32 PM
You are exactly true,Sean. I have seen some guys put up their same badly designed tools repeatedly. Seems like they never make new ones. Nor do they learn better. I wonder why the major toolmakers did not use some of these designs over 100 years ago.

Sean Hughto
06-27-2011, 1:42 PM
It's like that old saying about "the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know." The more woodworking I do, the more I realize how much I don't know and how hard it is to make something really good. Even seemingly straightforward things like turning a bowl on a lathe - anyone can turn a bowl shape, but it takes a lot to actually make a really good bowl - even just to make really nice inner and outer curves. I'm in the middle of making my first chair - sort of my version of a rustic stick windsor - and I can already tell that I'm probably about 5 chairs away from making one that I might be able to show anyone without shame, much less approaching any sort of heirloom! This woodworking stuff can definitely be humbling. When you take a chance and things go right it makes you feel great, but it can sure get under your skin when things go wrong, as they so often do.

As for the overwrought stuff, I think people fall victim to the very American impulse - if some is good, more has to be better.

Jerome Hanby
06-27-2011, 1:54 PM
It's like that old saying about "the more you know, the more you realize how much you don't know." The more woodworking I do, the more I realize how much I don't know and how hard it is to make something really good.

I think the more you know the more exacting your definition of something good becomes. For me, anything I can do is so-so, things beyond my current skill are good.

Sean Hughto
06-27-2011, 1:56 PM
http://www.damninteresting.com/unskilled-and-unaware-of-it/

george wilson
06-27-2011, 1:59 PM
My friend and co worker Jon had several of my mistakes and foul ups in his drawer.He had such fun showing them to people who came in,I never did take them away and throw them out!! I enjoyed the laughs too much. Everyone makes mistakes. The KEY is to learn from them,take good advice,and do better next time.

He was planning to make a collage of them to give me at retirement. Finally,he threw them out himself(after MANY years).

One piece was a broken off 1" TAP!! Well,I have tapped with 0-80taps and not broken them,BUT if I am going to do it,I will do it in a BIG way!!!:). I was tapping in the lathe and hit the bump button by accident. Bump makes the lathe rotate some so you can get the gears to shift if they won't. That geared down 10 h.p. motor,putting out many times that at the lowest speed,cared nothing for the strength of that tap!!

george wilson
06-27-2011, 2:53 PM
The excuse that irked me the most was the "If they'd had it in the 18th.C.,they would have used it." This was NOT from a regular museum employee. This fraud was contracted to build a pianoforte out side the museum.He got a free trip to England for SIX WEEKS supposedly to examine an old piano so he could copy it. THEN,he was paid highly to make it.

He veneered the cabinet using contact cement. The wood for the case was half dried,so the case shrank so badly that the veneer stuck up above the top edge of the piano's case 1/4"! There were 14 cracks 1/8" wide in the soundboard. I swear I am not exaggerating this. The bottom was similarly just full of wide cracks. This guy worked in a dirt floor garage. He chose wood that was out in the weather,took it home,and made a piano out of it that was set in an air conditioned room. The veneer popped loose in football sized and football shaped lumps about 1/2" high. When you pushed down on them,a sticky noise was heard.

Yet,the curators continued to stick up for the instrument. They could not admit that they spent a large amount of money on this fraud. Some time later,they tried to give the instrument away quietly to a donor who would give some big donation towards renovating the Governor's Palace. No takers as far as I know.

The T.V. show "Virginia Currents" highlights places and people in Va. They did a show on him. He was leaning up against a PLYWOOD harpsichord bottom,IN FRONT of his radial arm saw and other machinery. He stood there and said"I am the only person on the Eastern Coast who is making harpsichords entirely by hand in the original manner"!!!! Never have I seen so much gall.

Earlier,when he was in New York,he went around telling several dealers that he was the Master Musical Instrument Maker in Williamsburg. At that time I was,of course. One of them called me and told me about this.

This guy was as slippery as an eel. He lived in a falling down old farmhouse with 3" of moss on the roof. The county was going to tear it down. He managed to get that dump registered as an HISTORIC HOUSE!!!!

There are oodles more to this story,but I don't want this to turn into a LONG rant. A short one will be my limit.

Andrew Pitonyak
06-27-2011, 3:08 PM
the more you realize how much you don't know
Therefore I am hopeless....

I struggle with simple tasks (like cutting dovetails by hand, flattening boards well with a hand plane, etc) and I am pretty sure that I am mostly clueless.

From the above quote, when I figure these things out, I will realize that I am not nearly as informed as I thought...... Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

Dave Anderson NH
06-27-2011, 3:22 PM
Obviously your "friend" who made harpsichords was in the wrong field of employment. With that gall and chutzpah he should have been either a con man (oops, he was) or a member of a sales and marketing department where such behavior is often rewarded very handsomely.:D

Before you sales and marketing types try and crucify me laugh at yourselves. I'm in sales too.

Ron Kellison
06-27-2011, 5:01 PM
My personal red flags are:

I ran out of time

You would never notice it from the back of a fast horse.

Regards,

Ron

george wilson
06-27-2011, 7:06 PM
Dave,this harpsichord maker arrived in the company of a rare book dealer. The builder is English,and had been an electrician. He told me he left owing 8000 pounds in taxes. They set themselves up in an 18th.C. plantation house in Surrey. Quite a layout. The book dealer also had a bunch of early harpsichords,some as early as 16th.C.. He hired the guy to repair them so they could be sold.

They stayed there for about a year,when it was discovered that a bunch of people were after the book dealer for fraud. He ended up losing it all,and took a job as a maitre'd (sp???) in a restaurant in another town.

This English guy is such a con man,he had bunch of people in Wmsbg. eating out of his hand. Against my advice,he was given a part time job restoring keyboard instruments in the furniture conservation shop. He horrified the technicians with his heavy handedness and incredibly sloppy work. He shellacked OVER dust bunnies on soundboards. He zapped an electric drill through original holes in harpsichord cases where lines to some unknown early attachments went through. Then,he hammered dowel rods through the holes and sawed them off.

Finally,after enough of their own people complained about him,he got fired. Not until he had screwed up every instrument in the collection. They hired a proper conservationist,and he spent years trying to partially UN DO the damage that fool did.

An English accent goes a long way in Wmsbg. upper circles. WHY are people so impressed by an English accent? I have English friends,but most of the others I know want to spend their extra time drinking and partying. That is true.

This is still not the end of the list of things this guy pulled. He has swindled money out of several people,even the wife of a former governor. I wonder if he's still not in jail? Apparently not. He still has a fancy website.

Harlan Barnhart
06-27-2011, 9:28 PM
Obviously your "friend" who made harpsichords was in the wrong field of employment. With that gall and chutzpah he should have been either a con man (oops, he was) or a member of a sales and marketing department where such behavior is often rewarded very handsomely.

Sounds like CEO material to me. He should be the head of a large investment bank where mistakes are covered by taxpayers. I'm sure he would be a great politician.

george wilson
06-27-2011, 9:40 PM
He was a great politician. Feeding pure garbage to those "highly educated" curatorial types and getting them to buy into it.

He actually told them that his (six month old) piano was made EXACTLY like the 200+ year old original,and that it was warping and cracking in EXACTLY the same way!!!! I swear that he said that. I think they believed him,too.

This guy took the prize for inventing excuses!!!

Roy Lindberry
06-28-2011, 12:48 AM
"The painter is the carpenter's friend"

My old framing buddy used to say, "A tube of caulk and a gallon of paint, makes a carpenter what he ain't".

Roy Lindberry
06-28-2011, 1:03 AM
Nobody will see it anyway. . .



Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I was under the impression that most of the Craftsmen of days gone by lived by this. Isn't it true that most hand crafted drawer bottoms were left rough, because they would not be seen? Seriously, I don't see the need to get the inside of a carcass to the same grade as the drawer faces, though I certainly wouldn't fault anybody for doing so.

But it is my understanding that it was quite common for hidden areas to be bereft of the attention to detail that visible areas had, even among fine craftsmen. Am I wrong on this?

Brian Ashton
06-28-2011, 4:55 AM
"Close enough for government work"



I much prefer close enough for the girls I go out with

george wilson
06-28-2011, 7:50 AM
It is quite true that old pre-machine era furniture was left rough where it was not seen. Must have been the much higher cost of hand work in those times. Craftsmen tried to keep their prices competitive,most likely,and that was a normal(for the time) way of cutting those extra hours out. If your competitor did it,you had to keep up with him. Same thing exists today; low bidder gets the job.

David Weaver
06-28-2011, 8:25 AM
I forgot the one that I have heard.

"I don't have time to learn to do that".

Which is followed by someone doing something wrong with no regard...knowingly.

george wilson
06-28-2011, 8:38 AM
Here's another: This guy who knows who and what I am perfectly well,who I hired was sawing off boards. He was measuring each side of the board from the opposite end. Then,he'd connect the 2 marks with a line,and saw the board off. Of course,if the opposite end was not square,his line would just be parallel to it,and not necessarily square.

I told him that was not a good way to do it. He told me that he did it because "he learned it from a carpenter"(in a rather insistent way). I told him that it was wrong,and if he wanted to work around here,he was to use a square. He did. The guy is far from stupid,and I think he was just sort of trying to be independent and stubborn. That's fine,but not when I'm paying him to do a DECENT job.

David Weaver
06-28-2011, 8:43 AM
Here's another: This guy who knows who and what I am perfectly well,who I hired was sawing off boards. He was measuring each side of the board from the opposite end. Then,he'd connect the 2 marks with a line,and saw the board off. Of course,if the opposite end was not square,his line would just be parallel to it,and not necessarily square.

I told him that was not a good way to do it. He told me that he did it because "he learned it from a carpenter"(in a rather insistent way). I told him that it was wrong,and if he wanted to work around here,he was to use a square. He did. The guy is far from stupid,and I think he was just sort of trying to be independent and stubborn. That's fine,but not when I'm paying him to do a DECENT job.

People always try to apply something directly from more skilled folks without examining all of the details of the situation.

He may have learned that trick from a carpenter, but the carpenter was probably using boards that he knew were square when he was measuring them.

I don't know what carpenters are like now, but most of the older carpenters I know (knew for some of them now) who are long since retired did not do sloppy work under any circumstances. Same with the older plumbers, and pretty much any other tradesmen. Everything was "right first" and "quickly second".

george wilson
06-28-2011, 8:48 AM
After having had this house worked on,I think the days of careful carpenters are LOOOOOOOONG gone! Any special features,such as replacing the scrolled "dog ears" at each end of where the roof meets the outside walls,I made myself from cypress,and had them put them up.

David Weaver
06-28-2011, 9:04 AM
I'm not sure when everything went out of square. the englishman I woodwork with stripped his kitchen and redid it, and in a house built in the 70s, he said "I'll never do this again". He squared everything in the kitchen by hand, building up where need and planing down where needed, so that he'd be able to work flat and square once the wall was back up. I thought he was nuts.

I am amazed when I look at my parents' house, though - early 1900s, all hand cut stone, hardwood 2x4s (rough sawn of course) with everything fit like you would do it if you did it yourself. There was nobody measuring from the non-square end of a board to cut something to length on the crew that built it. My house is from the '50s and somewhere in between, but at least it is old enough that some parts of it are a bit overbuilt. I recognize that a lot of the houses in the '50s and after the war were not so carefully put together as that, though.

george wilson
06-28-2011, 9:50 AM
Still stupid and a waste of time to measure twice and connect the marks.

This 1849 house has its problems,but everything is really square. I was surprised when putting down all new quarter round moldings throughout the house. They were all removed in the shag carpet era-when the doors were all chainsawed off short.

I had to replace all the shelves in the closets. They all had 1/2" wide rough,torn,planer marks all over them. One of the doors was like that,too,surprisingly. It was a special short door leading to a storage space between dormers. Must have been made at the sawmill that cut the huge,oversize,yellow pine timber the house is made from. Surprised the owner of the mill,who built this house,let that kind of work go into this house.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
06-28-2011, 10:09 AM
My parents house had good bones, but someone before they bought it divided a room in two. The wall was so out of square as to be ridiculous, went partially over an old electrical box for a ceiling fixture, (fortunately properly terminated, and was accessible enough from above that we could remove it and replace the run, but jeeze) and built over the carpet.

Our house (well, we own the second story, it's a condo) was built in the 1800's - and been a rental for probably 75 years. So it's this weird mix of well built original stuff, and horrible, horrible "fixes" over the years. We've a cedar shake roof under the slate. And then some doofus replaced pieces of missing slate with asphalt. (One of our first things fixed.) The sheathing under the siding on the older parts of the house is old Doug fir or something that's all six to twelve inches wide and two inches thick.

The guy that owned part of the downstairs hired damn idiots to try and "fix it up" so he can sell it because he's tired of renting it. They keep doing half-ass jobs to fix things, rather than fix the proper problem. They left an open pipe connected to the drain stack in the basement after plumbing work. They keep putting up new drywall in this one spot rather than fix the poorly installed roof over the addition. They installed a kitchen without taking into consideration the size needed for applicances, so they had to redo it to fit the stove, and the fridge is just hanging out in a weird spot off to the side, with a too-small opening just sort of awkwardly hanging out in the counter space. They all think it's "good enough", and have a litany of stupid excuses.

There's an old chimney that goes from the first floor through the second and out the roof. It terminates on the bottom in a weird little space that's now a bookcase or something where a wood stove used to be attached. They thought it would be a good idea to remove the built-in and the bricks above. From the bottom. Just removing what was in their way of their "renovations". I managed to put the kibosh on that. They didn't seem to see what the issue would be removing the supports under a story and a half of bricks going through my unit and out the roof. Then they wanted to see about splitting the cost to remove the whole chimney, starting at the top where it made sense. After looking at the way these guys work, I told them hell no, and if they think about doing anything structural as they work on their part of the building, I want to know.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
06-28-2011, 10:17 AM
My uncle owns a building on a city in St. Johnsbury, made back when the Fairbanks where turning that town into a little Boston or something. It's several stories, and has a lot of nice details he's fixing. Everything's crazy square, dead on, on the interior parts of the building, but I always found it interesting how they work around the whole building tapering - the lot's along a bend in the road, and they built that street so all the buildings would make a perfectly square facade as you walked down the street, and then taper or expand them to fit and fill up the lots.

But inside, even stuff in places you'll never see, like at along a ceiling that's probably 16-18 feet up on the second story, everything is done to such a level of craftsmanship. Now I see people make "crown molding" by construction-adhesive-ing door jamb molding along the ceiling and filling 1/2" gaps with caulk. I don't understand.

Jim Koepke
06-28-2011, 1:07 PM
After looking at the way these guys work, I told them hell no, and if they think about doing anything structural as they work on their part of the building, I want to know.

Do you really expect them to know they are doing something structural?

jtk

Tony Zaffuto
06-28-2011, 2:52 PM
I was fortunate in the early 70's, right after graduating from college, being jobless, to have got into the carpenter's apprenticeship program (United Brotherhood of Carpenters & Joiners of America). It was a 4 year program and I worked along side a number of gents that were then in their 60's, ready for retirement (many who are not with us today). It was still common for carpenters to carry a tool tote with handsaws, brace & bits, etc. to whatever job you had to do (told to me several times "I'll have cut two dozen boards with my handsaw before you can drag that generator over here to power your circular saw". It was still a time when once a week handsaws were gathered and sent out for sharpening. Tools were tools and meant to be used and none of the guys I was around would think twice about altering a tool for a special purpose.

Some of the guys had shortcuts and you had to watch closely to fully grasp what they were doing. I would bet the guy George saw "connecting the dots" missed something from the person he was trying to imitate.

Though it was carpentry and nothing approaching cabinetmaking, it still gave me the basis to keep learning the trade long after I left it in 1989. All in all, a most enjoyable way to kill time after college!

Jessica Pierce-LaRose
06-28-2011, 4:10 PM
Do you really expect them to know they are doing something structural?

jtk

Well, honestly, no. Fortunately, they're done, and they didn't come up with any other stupid ideas. And I keep a good eye on what's going on. The older retired woman who lives in the house next door also seems to know everything that's happening in our little cluster of houses and apartments, so she keeps me well informed.

Rick Markham
06-28-2011, 5:46 PM
"It's easier to do it this way" (just because it is "easier" doesn't mean it is the best/right way to do something)

My personal favorite "no one showed me the right way to do it" (if you didn't know, maybe you should ask someone who does)

Humility goes a long way in any art form... People that don't have any, usually are trouble no matter what they do in life.

Harlan Barnhart
06-28-2011, 6:08 PM
I'm not sure when everything went out of square...

Here's a theory for what it's worth. Before cheap house loans, houses were built with cash saved over a length of time. Owners who have saved for years are more likely to demand greater quality than one who thinks of his house as a "starter home" to flip in few years.

george wilson
06-28-2011, 6:10 PM
I am fully guilty of "it's easier to do it this way",even though I usually am doing it the hardest way ANYONE could manage to do it. For instance,violin makers usually leave their backs and sides at least 1/16" bigger than they will be finished all the way around the sides. There is a small,rounded overhang all around the edges of a violin. They do this so they can trim that last but parallel to the sides. Then,they cut the inlaid purfling around near the established edge of the violin. It is just easier to do that way.

Do I do that? No. I make the top and back fully and completely cut and formed and inlaid before I ever glue them to the sides. The hard way to do it,but


i like having the opportunity to get the little "dip" around the edges exactly sculpted before I glue things down.You just have to have the skill to do it that way,but it is the hard way. Somehow,I find it easier because I have done it that way many times.

Jason Roehl
06-28-2011, 7:09 PM
Interesting that people are talking about older homes being straight and square. In this part of the country, I have yet to set foot in a house that is older than about 50 years that IS square--they're all horribly crooked inside, and plenty of cracked plaster from movement. The sweet spot is houses from the '60s and '70s--for the most part they are the straight and square ones. With the exception of the offerings from a few small, semi-custom/custom builders, everything from the late '80s onward is garbage. My current house is from 1974, and seems to be pretty square, though I've not done any remodeling that would call attention to out-of-square conditions--I'm just going by eye. One possible issue is that the doors to the bedrooms upstairs (bi-level house) indicate that something isn't right--they don't all close properly, but replacing those doors and trim is down the road a bit financially. I'll know for sure then what the problem is--if the house has settled unevenly, or if those doors are just at the end of their life (they're a decent lauan hollow-core set in pine jambs with pine trim--dark, of course ('70's house!).

Leigh Betsch
06-28-2011, 8:18 PM
I have seen some guys put up their same badly designed tools repeatedly.

Hey I resemble that remark!;)

When I worked as a Tool and Die Maker we would repeatedly hold tolerances of .0002", splitting a .001 wasn't even a question in most cases. But some guys couldn't hack it and would leave after awhile. One of the guys said "We are all perfectionists, just some of us compromise sooner than others". He was right of course, we'd try and try for perfection but when your down to .0001 we'd call it "Good enough for the girls we go with".

Rick Markham
06-29-2011, 2:16 PM
Haha George! Sometimes the "right way" and the "best way" are two different things. If you get a better result, even if it is the harder way, then that is the "best way" :D How did Antonio Stradivari build his? He probably did alot of things "his way" but the results paid off. I was referring more to half ***ing something, just because, with no regard to resulting quality. :eek:

george wilson
06-29-2011, 2:43 PM
Stradavari was very rich,and had a staff. I,having been in charge of a shop,would think he would pick out the wood,get his highly talented,selected craftsmen to do nearly all the carving with suggestions from the master as to how to carve each arch to fit that particular piece of wood. Then,he would carefully tune each top and back. He built until 93,and certainly would have needed help to make about 1200 violins.

As to varnishing,any highly skillful journeyman could have done that,and everyone in that area was using the "Cremona" varnish. Jacob Steiner in Austria studied in Italy,and was the only person outside the region to be known to have used it. Probably picked up the formula,or a source to buy it in Italy while there. He went crazy,and had to be chained to his STONE workbench!! Stone! Isn't that a Germanic thing to make a bench from!!!

P.S.: Steiner(or Stainer) ; his violins were the most preferred ones during his lifetime. They had a more "flutey" sound which was liked better back then. Later on,a more powerful sound became more wanted,and Strads and Guaneris came more into fashion. Stradivari was no slouch though. He made a suite of instruments for the King of Spain.

Rick Markham
06-29-2011, 5:27 PM
That's super cool, and really interesting George! I rarely venture over to this side of the creek anymore (I spend all my free time turning now), but when I saw that you had started this thread, I had to join in. I'm glad I did, I always learn something from you. I hope you've been well, maybe one day I will get to come pick your brain in person!

James Scheffler
06-29-2011, 8:15 PM
Interesting that people are talking about older homes being straight and square. In this part of the country, I have yet to set foot in a house that is older than about 50 years that IS square--they're all horribly crooked inside, and plenty of cracked plaster from movement.

My 1930 Colonial isn't bad, but there are plenty of things that aren't quite square. When we stripped off the wallpaper in the upstairs bedrooms, you could see from the cracks in the plaster that the back center of the house had settled a little bit relative to the rest. I don't think it was built poorly at all, just something that happens.

My parents have a mid-nineteenth century post and beam house, part of which was moved from another site and attached to what was there already. I don't think there is a single plumb wall or level floor in the whole building. I come home from their house and feel thankful that I bought a "new" one. :)

Jim