Which hand saw to buy to cut tenons??

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

I am very new to the world of hand tools and I am looking to pickup a saw (or two) to cut tenons. Recommendations on which brands / models to buy will be helpful but I will also need to understand which type of saw is best suited to the task as I am confused between carcass saws, tenon saws, sash saws.

I would ideally like to get one saw that can cross-cut and rip (if such a thing exists) but I am not opposed to buying two saws that are purpose built.

Thanks

[Mark Baldwin III]

So far, I'm very happy with my Lee Valley carcass (tenon) saws. They can't be beat for the price. I believe Bad Axe makes a combo-cut saw. But I have zero experience with that concept. Lie-Nielsen is also known to make good saws, as is Wenzloff. But Lee Valley are the only ones I've been able to use.

[John McPhail]

I'm new too, and have slowly been obtaining tools. I bought the Gramercy 14" Sash Saw, which can x-cut and rip, and I'm happy with it so far - I've had it about a week.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Get a rip saw to cut tenons, whether eastern or western. Later, get a cross cut when you need one. You'll be happier.

Pam

[Steve Branam]

Get a rip saw to cut tenons, whether eastern or western. Later, get a cross cut when you need one. You'll be happier.

Pam

Definitely, because the major work cuts in a tenon are all rip. The shoulder cuts are crosscut operations. However, given that they are the "show" portion of the joint, you want them to be as good a cut as you can make, so you'll need a good quality crosscut saw as well. Then learn to make a "first class cut". Chris Schwarz did this nice article on Robert Wearing's three classes of cut in the Lee Valley newsletter a few years ago: http://www.leevalley.com/newsletters/Woodworking/1/5/article1.htm.

The other question is what size tenons you have in mind, and what kinds of woods. I started out with Lie-Nielsen dovetail and carcass saw (the dovetail saw for the rip cuts on the tenon cheeks, and the carcass saw for the crosscuts on the tenon shoulders). These work well on small tenons, but I've had some problems using the dovetail saw for larger tenons, where I sometimes found its thin plate wandering a bit, for instance when the grain in a large tenon in SYP caught it. Plus the small dovetail saw bottoms out in large tenons. So I got the LN 12" tenon saw filed rip (I also got the 12" crosscut, in for a penny, in for a pound). That solved the problem. I'd say for the best versatility with a range of joint sizes, those three saws would cover it, and the fourth is a nice-to-have if you can afford it.

I've never seen any rule of thumb about this, but it's probably best to have a backsaw with enough size and mass that it doesn't come too close to bottoming out in a cut. That ensures that it's big enough to handle the job.

[Casey Gooding]

My recommendation would be to get a tenon saw filed rip and a carcase saw filed crosscut. If you are looking for brand recommendations, any of the saws made by modern high end makers (Lie-Nielsen, Grammercy, Bad Axe, Wenzloff, Adria) are excellent choices. It ends up being user preference.
Though, as Mark stated, the new Lee Valley saws are really tough to beat for their price. They are excellent saws.

[Chris Griggs]

To cut tenons you want a large 14 inch or larger rip saw - Sash or Tenon (unless your tenon are very small). A dedicated rip is best, but as mention earlier Tools for Working Wood (Gramercy) sells a hybrid filed saw and Bad Axe tool works also does a hybrid filing. In my opinion the Lee Valley saws (while Im sure are excellent saws) are too small to make a good tenon saw unless all your tenons are 1.5 inches or less. You can cut tenons with a rip carcass saw - I've done it, but it is SLOW and not as accurate as using a larger saw.

I second Casey's recommendation. Get a large rip sash or tenon saw and an 11 inch or larger (mine is 14") crosscut carcass saw.

[Archie England]

The new saw makers are GREAT!!!!I bought two Adria saws and love them. However, my other saws are vintage Disston, Atkins, etc. Why? Well, western saws have to be sharpened, and I figured that I needed a couple to learn on. Never did I imagine that the old saws, once tuned, would cut GREAT, too. They do. It's fun. NO, strike that--ITS ADDICTIVE!!!!! and fun. What you discover is that saw plate width (.015, .02, .025, .028, .032, etc) really make a difference in cut quality and characteristics. Thicker plates, with more girth, are less likely to bind, bend, or wander (so long as sharpened and set correctly). Thinner plates are just the opposite--but in a shallow dovetail cut, that's precisely the plate one wants. The sheer thin plate cuts a pencil mark in half. (I'm not there yet.) So, the deeper the cut, one of two things must be present: (1) an expert who knows how to cut with these thinner plates or (2) a thicker plate to take the abuse of us less-than-experts.

I highly recommend that you buy one of the new sawmakers' saws first. This will set the standard by which to judge all other "vintage" purchases. BTW, did I mention how addictive and fun it is to tinker with old saws....

Archie, near NOLA

[Jonathan McCullough]

I like large (16-18 inch) tenon saws with deep plates. I like to make simple, sturdy shop stuff with ordinary 2 x 4s and to do that it's better to have a deep plate. The model I have is a C. E. Jennings-made "Fulton Special" which is a good but uncommon saw. Wenzloff, Bad Axe, LN, and Adira all come with high praise. If you're making regular sized furniture, a smaller carcase saw would do, like Lee Valley's. Small fiddly stuff like sashes and little boxes, you could get away with a little dovetail saw. I keep a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw on my bench all the time for small, neat rip cuts like cutting damaged horns off of saw handles.

[Bruce Campbell]

Two good saws were on my tool list when I started out. Sadly I didn't know about the Creek and the Adria saws were highly recommended in PW and by some students at the school I attended. So, I emailed Adria directly and he recommended two rip saws, one dovetail, one tenon. I purchased both. I love them. I use them to crosscut and rip and have had 0 issues with cut quality. My instructor at the school I attended as well as some of the big luminaries (Tage Frid comes to mind immediately, though I know there's others) who have written about woodworking have suggested that a rip can do both cross cut and rip easily. My experiences suggest they are correct. That being said I'm starting to shop around for a decent cross cut, just to see what the difference is in my shop but if I don't find one immediately I won't be too upset.

[David Weaver]

Since you're getting a rip cut saw, the easiest to file, I would probably just get an old straight saw and sharpen it. If you want to get a pro saw first, budget can dictate, I guess, and get an old saw to go with it to fix up. You might find you enjoy tuning up an old saw better than buying a new one (and materials and saw should make it a proposition of 1/3rd the cost, possibly less.

Of the "pro" saw makers, I would go with wenzloff because to my mind, he sells the nicest style saws if you buy the folded back english pattern saws, and he does the best job with the handles.

[David Keller NC]

Bruno - As other have alluded to on this thread, you can certainly make cross-cuts in wood with a rip-filed saw. The cut won't be as clean or as fast as a cross-cut with a cross-cut filed saw, but on a tenon, you should have a knifed line to cut to anyway. The knife kerf prevents the principal problem with making a cross-cut with a rip-filed saw: tear-out and splintering.

A couple of recommendations: If you're just getting into hand tools, then you may be going through what many of us did at first - sticker shock. You can easily spend multiple thousands of dollars on a basic but complete kit of hand tools, and swallowing that all at once can be daunting. Most of us with 20+ hand saws and 40+ planes picked them up one at a time over a period of years. So - what you want is a basic list of tools that will do lots of different things, and more specialized tools come later that make particular jobs faster/easier than using a generalized tool.

For this reason, I'm going to recommend that you spend $37 and buy Chris Schwarz's new book: The Anarchist's Tool Chest. The title is misleading - most of the book is about what comprises a minimum tool kit for generalized cabinetmaking with hand tools, and also a list of "nice to haves". Only the last 20% of the book is about building a tool chest. Buying and reading this book will save you thousands of dollars (yeah, you read that right: thousands of dollars), and get you up and running with a minimum of investment.

On saws, I would start with asking a question: do you have a good dovetail saw? If not, that's the first one you should buy. Dovetails are absolutely integral to hand cabinetmaking, and they can be used to saw furniture-scale tenon cheeks. The next saw should be a "carcass" saw that is typically about 10-12" long and filed cross-cut. With it, you can cut tenon shoulders without much tear-out, and more importantly with the aid of a shop-made bench hook, you can cross-cut small parts very accurately that would be very dangerous to process on a table saw or a powered miter saw.

After that, I would suggest a good rip filed "panel saw" - a panel saw is just another name for a back-less saw of the type that everyone's seen at flea markets, home improvement stores and on the walls of their dad's small shop. But don't buy one from the big box store, or one from the flea market unless you want to learn to do saw filing (it's complex; your initial efforts should be focused on getting a good edge on straight cutting tools like a plane blade and a chisel). Instead, realize that what makes a good saw is the tote (handle) and most critically, whether it's sharp and correctly set. You've two options here: buy one from Lie-Nielsen or Mike Wenzlof (new) or buy from someone that knows what they're doing when it comes to saw filing. The guy that runs Bad Axe toolworks can sell you a superbly performing antique, as can a couple of guys that regularly advertise in the SawMill Creek classifieds section. With this saw, you can do rough-cutting of stock to break it down into manageable pieces, and you can easily saw big tenon cheeks such as would be necessary for building a workbench.

That last point, by the way, is the most critical tool in a hand-tool shop: a workbench. It doesn't have to be fancy, nor new, but it does have to be the right height to plane, saw, and chisel, and it needs good and appropriate vises. Most of us build ours (some of us, many times over! :D)

[John Coloccia]

re: which saws
Are you making large tenons or small tenons, i.e. are you making table and entertainment centers or small chairs and jewelry boxes? For small tenons, I cut them out with my dovetail saw. If you intend on making small items, I think two small dovetail saws, one filed rip and one crosscut, will give you a lot of use.

[Derek Cohen]

I am very new to the world of hand tools and I am looking to pickup a saw (or two) to cut tenons. Recommendations on which brands / models to buy will be helpful but I will also need to understand which type of saw is best suited to the task as I am confused between carcass saws, tenon saws, sash saws.

I would ideally like to get one saw that can cross-cut and rip (if such a thing exists) but I am not opposed to buying two saws that are purpose built.

Thanks

Hi Bruno

Ideally you will want a 14-16" rip-filed tenon saw with 10-11 ppi for the cheeks, a 11-12" cross cut carcasss saw with 13-14 ppi for the shoulders, and a 9-10" rip-filed dovetail saw with 15 ppi.

These can be had in vintage saws (which may need to restore, including refiling teeth), buying a kit (which generally just need the handle being made), or a ready-made saw that is new out-of-the-box. There will be many recommendations here from the forum.

Rather than trying to find a one-does-it-all, get one that does-it-well at a time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

Wow, thanks for all the quick responses!

Let me try and answer some of the questions that have come up along the way:
-I don't currently "have" a good dovetail saw but Mike Wenzloff is making one for me this week so I will have it soon enough. With his guidance this will be an Early Kenyon type which is small but should take care for most of my furniture dovetails.
-I will be building mostly furniture with these saws (chest of drawers, book cases, coffee and dining tables, etc.) so I am likely in the medium size tenon range (no timber framing for me)
-my initial plan is to use power tools for dimensioning lumber then hand tools to join it, so I may be able to hold off on panel saws for a while
-re: workbench - I do have one that I recently built out of SYP taking various design ideas from Schwartz's latest bench design book. It has a 3" thick top, 4" x 4" legs, dog holes, a Jorgensen front vise and a Peachtree Woodworking end vise with big chops so I am all set in that department.

[James Owen]

My experience has been that for cutting most furniture-scale tenons, you'll want a fairly large rip saw. I have both the rip and crosscut LN 14" Tenon saws, which I REALLY like, and have used a friend's Bad Axe 18" rip tenon saw. I liked it enough that I am seriously considering getting one (or maybe even the monster Roubo saw.....).

After cutting tenons with smaller (10" and 12") vintage tenon saws, I'm definitely with the Schwartz on this one: in a tenon saw, bigger and longer is mo' better. The balance and feel seem "better," it's easier to start, it's a lot easier to keep the saw vertical, and seems easier to stay on the cut line with the larger/longer saw. I realise that most of the preceding is pretty subjective, but enough (experienced) tenon saw users have also made similar comments, that there must be something to it......

Anyway, my nickel's worth is to recommend that you take a look at the larger/longer tenon saw; their cost is only a bit more that the shorter saw. Besides, if you continue down the slippery slope, you'll probably end up with several tenon (and other) saws in your saw inventory.