A Hand Built Roubo, and the Education of a Woodworker [Archive]

David Wadstrup

06-25-2011, 8:56 PM

Hello,

I'm not sure if this is where I should be posting this, or, for that matter, if anyone will be interested -- I guess I'll just have to see how it goes. Anyways, I am relatively new to woodworking, and have recently begun an enormous project -- a Benchcrafted Roubo built entirely by hand(except for the occasional use of a drill press). I'll be doing all of the milling and joinery by hand, and I thought it might be worthwhile to document the build. I also thought that some of you might be able to help out with some much needed advice and feedback. Like I said, I'm just a novice.

I plan on including many photos with the hope that any wrong turns I make will be quickly spotted. So, if you notice something, please speak up. Since it will be immediately apparent, I should mention that my workshop happens to be in the living room of my one bedroom apartment. I live in Brooklyn, cannot afford separate shop space, and have a very understanding wife.

I spent a great deal of time trying to decide what type wood to use, and ended up going with Ash. I bought 226bf of it from Middle Valley Lumber out in New Jersey about 2 months ago, and it's been acclimating to my shop/living room's environment ever since. Here it is stickered and stacked, and ready to go.

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Thanks for reading,

David

Frank Carnevale

06-25-2011, 8:58 PM

I for one will be watching this in breathless anticipation as I will be embarking on the same journey later this year hopefully (I also bought the benchcrafted plans). Go get 'um David! :)

Jim Koepke

06-25-2011, 9:17 PM

David,

Thanks for posting and I can not think of a better place to share the journey.

Interesting coincidence is that I bought ash to build my bench that is not going to be of any particular style. It is going to be made to be a bench for my shop and the rest will evolve from there.

It may take me a bit longer than you, but I am not in a hurry.

jtk

jason thigpen

06-25-2011, 9:25 PM

To say you have an understanding wife is a major understatement! You are a lucky man! Looking forward to the build. Good luck with it!

Steve Branam

06-25-2011, 9:36 PM

I'll be doing all of the milling and joinery by hand, and I thought it might be worthwhile to document the build. I also thought that some of you might be able to help out with some much needed advice and feedback.

Cool! I built a Chris Schwarz Roubo by hand from SYP, all I did by machine was run the lumber through a benchtop planer. You can see the full build at http://www.closegrain.com/2009/10/my-roubo.html (in 16 parts :D). It was definitely an educational experience, and a great confidence-builder.

Since it will be immediately apparent, I should mention that my workshop happens to be in the living room of my one bedroom apartment. I live in Brooklyn, cannot afford separate shop space, and have a very understanding wife.

And that's exactly why it's worth learning to use hand tools! http://www.closegrain.com/2011/05/why-use-hand-tools.html.

Since you're in Brooklyn, find your way to http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/ if you haven't already.

Mark Wyatt

06-25-2011, 10:45 PM

I love the flowers on the lumber and the mitre saw in the background. That is classic!

Bobby O'Neal

06-26-2011, 12:22 AM

Cool! I built a Chris Schwarz Roubo by hand from SYP, all I did by machine was run the lumber through a benchtop planer. You can see the full build at http://www.closegrain.com/2009/10/my-roubo.html (in 16 parts :D). It was definitely an educational experience, and a great confidence-builder.

And that's exactly why it's worth learning to use hand tools! http://www.closegrain.com/2011/05/why-use-hand-tools.html.

Since you're in Brooklyn, find your way to http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/ if you haven't already.

Great bench and blog, Steve. I really enjoyed that.

Michael Peet

06-26-2011, 8:31 AM

Hi David,

You will find much interest and advice here, I am sure. I am jealous of your location, with all that fine natural light!

There is a thread on another forum where a guy built a roubo in his apartment. I don't think I am allowed to link directly to it but if you Google "building a roubo workbench in my apartment" you should find it at the top of the list.

I recently built a Schwarz roubo with Benchcrafted vises and posted a build here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?163291-My-Roubo-Build, although I was about 50/50 with power and hand tools. You are in for a workout.

Looking forward to your build!

Mike

Bruce Campbell

06-26-2011, 10:29 AM

Looking forward to the build process. I'm going to be documenting my roubo(ish) build soon myself though I don't have near the quality of materials you have. Keep the updates flowing.

David Keller NC

06-26-2011, 11:01 AM

David - A suggestion. Since you're in brooklyn, you should be able to easily find another woodworker that would trade you the use of his planer/jointer for a couple of hours for a few six-packs. In a one-room apartment, taking the wood over to get it milled will not only radically speed up your project, but will also (probably more importantly) considerably reduce the amount of sawdust & shavings that need to be cleaned up and wind up getting tracked all over your domicile.

David Wadstrup

06-26-2011, 8:39 PM

You can see the full build at http://www.closegrain.com/2009/10/my-roubo.html (in 16 parts :D). It was definitely an educational experience, and a great confidence-builder.

And that's exactly why it's worth learning to use hand tools! http://www.closegrain.com/2011/05/why-use-hand-tools.html.

Your blog is an inspiration, Steve. I had actually discovered it on my own not too long ago. I've already been thinking about a future benchtop bench, or possibly a Moxon vise, and I found your thoughts and photos very helpful. I still haven't made up my mind which I'll go with yet. For a while I was thinking that I'd love to build a benchtop model that would feature Len Hovarter's Twin Handle Face Vise (http://www.hovartercustomvise.com/?page_id=49). It operates with such beautiful simplicity. I started to worry, though, about weight -- I'll really need to be able to lift it alone. The Moxon is the lighter option, and Benchcrafted (http://benchcrafted.com/) has just announced that they have a version due out soon. I've been on tenterhooks awaiting photos and details. The craftsmanship and functionality they bring to their tools is astounding, and I'm sure it will exceed all of my expectations. So, who knows.... Fortunately, I have plenty of time to decide.

Since you're in Brooklyn, find your way to http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/ if you haven't already.

Thanks for the heads up on TFWW. I've made the trip out there more than once -- it's a great bike ride. In fact, I picked up a 1/2" Ray Iles Mortise Chisel from them just last week. As you know, I have some pretty large, pretty deep mortises ahead of me, and this seems like the best tool for the job. Look at the size of it...

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David Wadstrup

06-26-2011, 9:26 PM

Naturally, it takes a bench to build a bench. Here's the set up I put together for the build.

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It's a simple torsion box construction made of 3/4" Birch ply and 2"x4"s. Trojan Sawhorses (http://www.trojantools.com/product-display.php?id=2) support the top. Not only are they capable of supporting a tremendous amount of weight, they also provide the bench a rigidity that is necessary for all of the hand planing I'll be doing. I was really surprised by how solid the whole thing turned out to be. All I did was cut out four access holes and clamped the horses onto the internal 2"x4"s.

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The whole thing is super stable and incredibly flat, and if it weren't so lightweight, and if it had a vise or two, I might not need to be building this Roubo. As you can see, all of the work holding is done with various clamps and improvised stops, and aside from the time these rigs take to assemble, it works perfectly.

In case you're wondering, the saw benches below the table are made with brackets manufactured by McCoy (http://sawhorsebrackets.com/). Since I have virtually no power tools at my disposal, I didn't really want to take the time to build my own from scratch. These are heavy duty, and very quick and easy to set up. They'll definitely last a lifetime.

Thanks for reading,

David

Steve Branam

06-26-2011, 9:28 PM

Thanks! I plan on building a Moxon vise, too (just because you can never have too many shop doodads, even with hand tools! Plus it's a little more portable). But so far I really appreciate the versatility of the bench-on-bench for lifting all kinds of work up to a good level, from joinery, to carving, to saw sharpening.

That chisel looks like it should do the job. Any mortises wider than your chisel are a lot of work. You might also consider the drill-them-out-and-pare method. I tried both methods; for these really big mortises, I'm still on the fence about which method was more effective. You need a good brace and sharp bit for the drilling method.

andrew messimer

06-26-2011, 10:10 PM

Dave,

I am very interested to see how this progresses as I also live in an apartment. Do you have any concerns with noise issues? Sawing and pounding on chisels can be quite loud and I always worry if I am driving my neighbors nuts. Although they don't seem to worry too much about being loud so I guess I shouldn't either.

David Wadstrup

06-26-2011, 10:19 PM

Andrew,

I'm kind of in the same situation. The neighbors above me have a 3 year old and a new born, and make quite a bit of noise. It's my hope the we have a mutual, if unspoken understanding. I also try to do the noisiest part of my work during times when I know they are away, like weekday mornings(I work late shifts a couple of days a week.) The sawing isn't too big of a deal, but the chiselling can be quite loud. I recently bought a Wood Is Good Mallet (http://www.woodisgoodco.com/mallets.htm). It is much quieter than my wooden one.

Zahid Naqvi

06-26-2011, 11:30 PM

With Ash as your core lumber I have two words for you "thin shavings". Ash is a bear to plane but the finished surface is amazingly slick. Good luck.

john brenton

06-27-2011, 9:19 AM

You've decided what you're going to build...that's 95% of the battle right there. If I hadn't been caught between the Klausz and the Ruobo style frame I would have built mine a long time ago. I'm a few rips away from a finished benchtop, and I'll probably post the progress too.

EVERYONE is interested in bench builds.

Marc Jones

06-28-2011, 3:21 PM

David - I built a knock-down version of a Holtzapffel design last year by hand. It was one of my first woodworking projects. The top is ash: 3" x 24" x 84". Four squaring those 14 ash laminations by hand was an excellent apprenticeship in the craft, though one I would be happy not to repeat - if I ever build another bench I think I'll take Bob Rozaieski's lead and use 2 2x12 planks for the top. Working with the ash also made me more appreciative of the workability of the cherry/alder/mahogany/poplar I've been using for furniture projects over the past year.

I look forward to seeing the build!

Marc Jones

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David Wadstrup

06-28-2011, 11:21 PM

Marc,

That's a great looking bench! I love twin screw vise set-ups. You know I feel the same way... this is one of my first projects, too, and it seems the perfect way to acquaint myself with the craft -- lots of simple, basic tasks, repeated seemingly endlessly -- my top will be exactly 14 laminations of ash as well. I'm glad to hear that someone survived the experience.

Also, you're right... I was working a bit of walnut the other day, and it seemed about a million times easier to work in comparison.

Thanks for your interest!

David

David Wadstrup

06-29-2011, 6:54 PM

Thanks so much to everyone for all of the encouraging feedback. I'm glad to hear it's of interest to someone but myself. I also really appreciate hearing about your bench builds -- I really find them helpful and interesting.

Anyway, I spent a good while going through the wood pile and marking up the boards. I have 226bf, but I was still a little worried about not having enough. This process put my mind at ease.

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After I got the leg pieces cut roughly to size, I worked out the different work holding rigs I'd need to secure my work to the benchtop for hand planing.

Figuring out how to handle the wide flat faces was obvious. A 1"x6"x8' board of commercial pine clamped to the bench to act as a backstop, and a small, random piece of poplar, also clamped, acting as an end stop. How to hold work while working its long edges required a more complicated workaround. First, I cut out a few holes on the underside of the torsion box benchtop. My idea was to be able to use a couple of F-clamps to hold my work up against the side of the top. It does work pretty well, but it's a little awkward, and I'm limited in what width boards I can hold. As an alternative, I mounted a couple of 2"x6" pieces onto a couple of heavy gauge 6"x3" angle irons. I simply clamp this rig to the table top and then clamp my work to it. I wish they didn't take so long to set up, but they do exactly what I need them to do.

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All ready to start planing!

Thanks for reading,

David

Joe Fabbri

06-29-2011, 9:20 PM

Hi David,

It's good to see another New Yorker here. I'm on Long Island...well I guess we both are, haha. Anyway, that looks like a great project you have going there. I'd like to get to building a bench one of these days, so any posts on the subject are great to read. I'm thinking of using old doug fir lumber and maybe pressure treated souther yellow pine (for the base) I have laying around, but we'll see.

Anyway, that looks like a bit of work doing that all by hand. Is that your goal, or is it strictly a matter of resources and space? If it's the tools and space, you could try finding a local lumber yard that might be willing to plane some of the boards down. There should be a bunch in Brooklyn. If I had more tools (like a planer/jointer), I'd offer to help you out. But, I'm just getting into woodworking myself, and I only have a small table saw, miter saw, some old hand planes, and a few cheap chisels. Have you thought about buying one of those cheap portable table saws and cutting up on the roof (if you're allowed)? I have a small portable Ryobi that I use when I'm doing some construction work. It's not terribly accurate (sliding miter guage is useless basically), but it's new and still does the job good enough. We picked up the floor model at Home Depot for $125 (about $50 or so off regular price).

Joe

Jim Foster

06-30-2011, 10:05 AM

I hope you have more clamps than I see in your photos :)

john brenton

06-30-2011, 10:30 AM

Wooden jaw style clamps are good for edge work if you don't have a bench. Resting the clamp on it's side and clamping one jaw to the table makes a nice little work holder and is easy to adjust, and take pieces in and out. It's like having a vise.

How to hold work while working its long edges required a more complicated workaround. First, I cut out a few holes on the underside of the torsion box benchtop. My idea was to be able to use a couple of F-clamps to hold my work up against the side of the top. It does work pretty well, but it's a little awkward, and I'm limited in what width boards I can hold. As an alternative, I mounted a couple of 2"x6" pieces onto a couple of heavy gauge 6"x3" angle irons. I simply clamp this rig to the table top and then clamp my work to it. I wish they didn't take so long to set up, but they do exactly what I need them to do.

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All ready to start planing!

Thanks for reading,

David

David Wadstrup

07-01-2011, 7:59 PM

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the offer of help. To answer your question... Yes. I am limited in space, and the need to keep dust and noise to a minimum, but the goal is to work with only hand tools. I find that I enjoy working with them more. Although, I can't say that I'm loving all of the hand sawing that I've been having to do. At an average of 8 minutes a linear foot, it takes me about 45 minutes just to rip a 6' board. In other words, a TON of sawing. I figure, though, that it's good formative practice. Still, I think my work after the bench is done will be limited to smaller pieces of furniture and carcases.

I just got out to Long Island for the holiday weekend. It's beautiful out here!

Thanks,

David

Joe Fabbri

07-01-2011, 9:52 PM

Hi David,

Yeah, the long ripping must be the hardest. Except for long rips and compound miters, you can't beat hand tools really--so much more control and more relaxing.

Anyway, yeah, Long Island has some really nice spots, especially if you head up to the North Shore, and check out the old Gold Coast. There's so many beautiful mansion here and there (some you can tour still). The architectural and wood work in some are really amazing, Old World quality. After all, they used to bring many craftsmen from Europe to do the work.

Well, I hope you enjoy your time out here.

Joe

David Keller NC

07-02-2011, 1:17 PM

Although, I can't say that I'm loving all of the hand sawing that I've been having to do. At an average of 8 minutes a linear foot, it takes me about 45 minutes just to rip a 6' board. In other words, a TON of sawing.

David - Something sounds a bit "off". Even in ash, you should be able to get a lot more than 1.5 inches per minute at a comfortable pace. My thought is that you might have several contributing factors:

1) Your saw may be dull, have the wrong tooth geometry, have too much set, or may be too fine. To test sharpness, run your finger along the teeth in the direction of the cutting action - it should feel sharp enough that you have to be careful about not cutting your skin. Tooth geometry is critical when ripping - if you don't have a rip-filed saw, or the rake is too relaxed, it will radically slow down the speed of cutting. Take a look at the set - if the kerf is much more than the sawplate thickness when the saw is in the cut, you may be removing 1-1/2 times to 2 times more wood than you need to, and the speed of the cut is directly proportional to the amount of wood you're removing. Finally, you want a full-sized panel saw (typically 26") with no finer than a 7 tpi pitch, and more like 5 tpi would be considerably better.

2) You're sawing in the wrong position. This sounds basic, but is often overlooked by budding handsawyers. You really must have a saw bench, or some other means of holding the work that is no higher than about 2-3" below you knee height when standing. Sawing on a work-bench height bench is OK for an over-hand rip of a couple of feet, but is extremely slow compared to using a sawbench.

3) You have too much saw in the kerf. This is related to #2, above, in that when in the rip cut your saw should be stroking at about a 70-80 degree angle to the floor. Laying the saw back to 50 degrees is good for steering a wayward cut, but is highly inefficient for doing the whole cut because many more teeth are in the kerf than need be.

Finally, here's a thought - using a handsaw to rip boards to the proper width is not the only way to do it. Particularly with very hard woods such as maple and hickory (and probably ash), it can be a whole lot faster and a lot less tiring to use a jointer to joint one edge and one face straight and true, and a plow plane with a narrow (1/8", or 1/16" if you can get it) blade to "cut" the board to the proper width. If the board is only 1/4" - 1/2" away for its proper width, another very effective technique is to use a scrub, jack or fore plane with a highly curved (cambered) iron to take the extra width off as shavings.

Jim Koepke

07-02-2011, 2:04 PM

At an average of 8 minutes a linear foot, it takes me about 45 minutes just to rip a 6' board.

+1 on what David Keller NC said.

My guess is you may have a saw filed for crosscutting.

A sharp saw filed for rip cutting will make all the difference in the world.

I cut a 4/4 X 10 foot ash board in 15 minutes with a sharp 6 ppi saw. The rake was at 8°.

Sharpening another saw to 4 ppi with 5° rake did not improve the speed much. It did make for a bit tougher task. Some day I may redo that saw with a few more points per inch.

jtk

Steve Friedman

07-02-2011, 8:53 PM

Finally, here's a thought - using a handsaw to rip boards to the proper width is not the only way to do it. Particularly with very hard woods such as maple and hickory (and probably ash), it can be a whole lot faster and a lot less tiring to use a jointer to joint one edge and one face straight and true, and a plow plane with a narrow (1/8", or 1/16" if you can get it) blade to "cut" the board to the proper width.

David, that's thinking out of the box. I am always looking for easier ways to rip long boards and am curious how you do that.

Thanks.

Steve

Andrew Nielsen

07-02-2011, 9:15 PM

+1 on the plow plane. It works really well. It's quieter and cleaner (particulary if you work inside your house !) than hand saw ripping although probably not as much fun.

Steve Friedman

07-02-2011, 9:31 PM

+1 on the plow plane. It works really well. It's quieter and cleaner (particulary if you work inside your house !) than hand saw ripping although probably not as much fun.

Isn't the cut limited by the depth of the fence (distance from fence to blade)?

David Wadstrup

07-02-2011, 11:50 PM

Hi David,

Thanks so much for your feedback. This kind of helpful mentoring is exactly the reason why I decided to post this build here!

You know, I was thinking that my ripping was taking too long, too. I guess one of the problems is that I have been sawing at a too low angle... somewhere in the 55 degree range. I'll try upping it and see if that helps. I do use saw benches that are about 20" tall. Regarding the saw... it's a brand new Harvey Peace panel saw made by Mike Wenzloff. I don't know too much about the intricacies of saw making and such, so I described to him the kind of work I was planning on doing, the kinds of wood I'd likely use, and what I was able to afford, and he suggested a 24" 8 tpi rip saw. It's true that it's a little slower than a 5 or 6 tpi, but the goal was versatility -- I could only afford 1 rip and 1 cross cut saw. Also, keep in mind that I'm talking about 8/4. I'm able to get through 4/4 considerably faster. Anyways, Like I said, I'll try upping the angle. Thanks for the pointer. Hopefully it'll make a big difference. Please feel free to let me know of any other advice or suggestions you might have. I really appreciate them!

Thanks,

David

Andrew Nielsen

07-03-2011, 6:58 AM

Yes it is Steve. The 7 1/4 inch rods on a Record 044 probably give you 5 inches of capacity, in theory this means you can 'rip' a 10 inch wide piece of wood in half.
Once the timber gets too thick for the plough plane you just flip the piece over (maintaining the same reference edge). All tools have limitations.......

Steve Branam

07-03-2011, 8:26 AM

My ripsaw is 6 ppi. When I'm cutting heavy stock and it seems to be going slow, I resharpen it (10-15 minutes of work), and it usually cuts at three times the rate. After a little experience, you'll start to have a better feel of when it needs sharpening.

Steve Branam

07-03-2011, 8:33 AM

Heh, one man's work is another man's fun! Using a plow is a lot of fun! And even if you eventually can't plow any deeper from either surface, you've reduced the remaining thickness that can then be completed with a ripsaw. Reduce a 2" thick rip to 1" or less. So the final rip will be much easier. Just a different way to break up the labor.

David Keller NC

07-03-2011, 5:33 PM

Isn't the cut limited by the depth of the fence (distance from fence to blade)?

Steve - Yes, there are 2 limitations - the maximum distance between the skate and the fence (dependent on the fence rods in a metal plane, the length of the wooden threaded rods in a wooden plow), and the depth of the skate.

This is one of the reasons that I much prefer wooden plow planes to metal ones - they typically have a much deeper skate, though I also have metal ones that have advantages in certain situations.

I mentioned this method specifically because of what I perceived to be David's situation - ripping relatively narrow boards to a specific width to glue face-to-face to make a bench. Under these circumstances, one typically has a 5" to perhaps 8" wide board, and you wish to make it 3-1/2" to 4-1/2" wide. The technique, of course, is dependent on having a straight reference edge to run the plow fence on. Since you will have to joint at least one edge and both faces anyway, you can just do the jointing first and use the plow instead of the rip saw.

Personally, I'd rather rip softwood boards like cypress, EWP, cedar or southern yellow pine because the work goes exceptionally quickly. When faced with hard maple, soft maple, hickory, pecan or other really hard woods, I prefer the plow method.

This, btw, is one really good reason to use softwoods as a bench top if one wants to build one entirely by hand. An even better solution is going on a micromill lumber hunt and picking up a big slab - then there's only flattening and edge jointing involved, which saves perhaps 40 hours of hand work.

David Keller NC

07-03-2011, 5:45 PM

You know, I was thinking that my ripping was taking too long, too. I guess one of the problems is that I have been sawing at a too low angle... somewhere in the 55 degree range. I'll try upping it and see if that helps. I do use saw benches that are about 20" tall. Regarding the saw... it's a brand new Harvey Peace panel saw made by Mike Wenzloff. I don't know too much about the intricacies of saw making and such, so I described to him the kind of work I was planning on doing, the kinds of wood I'd likely use, and what I was able to afford, and he suggested a 24" 8 tpi rip saw. It's true that it's a little slower than a 5 or 6 tpi, but the goal was versatility -- I could only afford 1 rip and 1 cross cut saw. Also, keep in mind that I'm talking about 8/4. I'm able to get through 4/4 considerably faster. Anyways, Like I said, I'll try upping the angle.

Ahh - that makes much more sense. 8/4 is actually more than twice as hard to rip through than the same species that's 4/4, particularly with a finer saw, because the gullets of the teeth tend to clog with sawdust before they can exit the board. Not only does that interfere with the cutting action, but it also heats the sawplate. When that happens, a lightly-set saw may expand enough to where it is partially binding in the kerf, which adds considerable effort to the saw stroke.

My guess is that you've about 20-25 teeth in the cut by using an 8 tpi saw on a 2" thick board and leaning the saw back at about 50-60 degrees. Ideally, you want no more than 10 teeth in the cut, so sawing more vertically may help. Mike Wenzlof knows what he's doing, no question, but it's highly probable that he set your saw up for a different situation - ripping 1/2-7/8" thick diffuse-porous hardwood. It's also quite possible he made the saw with minimal set and more rake than usual - this is much easier for a beginner to start the saw and keep on the line because the saw doesn't have much room in the kerf to flop back and forth. But it also makes sawing slower.

However, given your situation I wouldn't change the saw except that I would buy some saw files. My guess is that you have more than 100 lineal feet of sawing in very hard lumber to do, and the saw (and possibly your arm!) will benefit from a light touch-up several times during the process.

I would also recommend using a candle on the sawplate - just about any old candle will do; just scribble it on both sides of the plate. If that makes a huge difference, than I do suspect that the saw has little set and is getting quite hot as you work your way down the board.

Hmm - I just had a thought. Us neanders should come up with something like The Spartan Death Race, except themed as handwoodworking. Your task of making 10-15' eight foot long cuts in hard, kiln-dried 8/4 ash could be the first event. :D

http://www.youmaydie.com/

David Wadstrup

07-06-2011, 6:59 PM

I've got all of the leg pieces cut and planed and glued up. It was my first hand planing experience and I really feel like I learned a lot -- each of the 8 boards seemed to go quicker than the one before it(there are 2 laminations per leg). Gluing up was very satisfying. I planed a VERY slight cup in one side of each of the laminations. It was a good technique for ending up with near invisible glue lines -- kind of like a spring joint.

Each leg is pretty close to perfect, but not TOTALLY perfect. What kind of tolerances do you think are acceptable? I'd say that 1/16" is the maximum difference between any of the measurements of any of the 4 legs(width and thickness). Most are within less than a 32nd. Does this sound acceptable? Also, while I did get each of the 6 sides of each of the legs pretty close to perfectly square to one another, they are not PERFECTLY square. For instance, the width of one of the legs is 1/32" thicker at the top of the leg than at the bottom. Do you think this is acceptable? I cut the bottoms in my old Stanley miter box, so they, at least, are perfect. They stand stable and secure. What do you think? I've been fiddling with these things for a few days, getting them closer and closer to perfect, and I'm wondering when I should just say "good enough." Any words of wisdom regarding the quest for perfection and the tolerances acceptable on a workbench?

Here are a few photos of the progress.

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Thanks for reading,

David

Chris Fournier

07-06-2011, 7:09 PM

Throw all of those pretty loose tolerances into the project and the 1/8"s will start to show up and square will be nowhere to be found. Cutting joinery will become a real mess and joints won't draw tight or square. Throw some glue and clamps at it all and things will turn south faster than you can imagine. Huge trouble and a witness to your sins. Ha, I've been there.

Set your marking, measuring tools once and run through all of the similar pieces to get uniformity. You have done well for where you are coming from but I think that you should strive for better if you want a bench that goes together well and you can be proud of. If the fundamental pieces are out this much the project will magnify these errors as you carry on and you will be upset with the outcome. Well perhaps I should say, "I'd be upset with the outcome". Get things right now and you will save yourself HUGE amounts of time as the project progresses.

Good luck and don't give up!

john brenton

07-07-2011, 10:08 AM

Truer words have never been spoken, Chris. I've just had to accept the fact that although I'm "capable" of fine work, if I'm too impatient to make it happen then that "capability" means nothing. I'm on the homestretch for finishing my bench, and I "let it all hang out" last Saturday and am paying the price now.

My biggest mistake was not planing the bottom as flat as the top. Sure, I got it "relatively" flat, but when you're talking about tenon shoulders fitting tight, "relatively" ain't gonna work. I knew it would cause a problem, but I thought I could just fudge it and make it work, which I did. I did fudge it, and it does work...but why didn't I just do it right? Why the laziness? That's what makes this hobby such an awesome journey.

The tenons themselves fit tight and are robust, so it's not going to affect the strength...its just the principle that if you spend time doing something, you may as well do it right. It's easy to forget that in a 100* garage with 80% humidity.

It's solid as a rock, but it just downgraded to "paint grade". It's ok, because I had been thinking about painting it anyways. I picked up some "colonial red" enamel...it's going to be awesomely horrible. I'm going to call it the "red baron." In fact, I'm thinking about painting everything...there's too much brown and tan in my shop.

But anyways...to the OP...don't accept anything less than your idea of perfection. You're using good wood, and you've already done a lot of work on it. If you see something is wrong but feel the desire to push through anyways just walk away and come back to it when you have a cooler head.

Throw all of those pretty loose tolerances into the project and the 1/8"s will start to show up and square will be nowhere to be found. Cutting joinery will become a real mess and joints won't draw tight or square. Throw some glue and clamps at it all and things will turn south faster than you can imagine. Huge trouble and a witness to your sins. Ha, I've been there.

Set your marking, measuring tools once and run through all of the similar pieces to get uniformity. You have done well for where you are coming from but I think that you should strive for better if you want a bench that goes together well and you can be proud of. If the fundamental pieces are out this much the project will magnify these errors as you carry on and you will be upset with the outcome. Well perhaps I should say, "I'd be upset with the outcome". Get things right now and you will save yourself HUGE amounts of time as the project progresses.

Good luck and don't give up!

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

07-07-2011, 10:44 AM

Going the extra mile is most frequently worth it, and as Chris said, small intolerances add up over distance. Remember if you plan to do any serious woodwork, you're going to be looking at this bench quite a lot! I know for myself, if I have to see the little imperfections over and over, it'll bug me. That said, on some shop gear, I've let somethings slide that wouldn't in a home piece, but that's mostly minor tearout or finishing woes.

One thing with getting stock squared and straight and level, think about how everything's going to fit together, what your process is going to be. Everything will be easier if everything is perfect, but there are places where if you can let perfectly square slide, if it looks good enough. There's other places where you can't, because it's going to affect the fit of joinery as you assemble parts - it might still be doable, but it's going to mean some fiddling getting everything to go together seamlessly. I sort of think of it as the inside and outside of a piece - often the inside has to be more square for everything to fit properly, while the outside really needs to look it's best.

A workbench seems like a decent place to let some things slide, until you think about the scale of the things you're putting together, it's gets awkward when you realize something is canted or out of square as you're trying to assemble things. And once it's done, you're going to want to use surfaces on there you haven't even thought of yet for some sort of workholding, and if they aren't square and true, that can be a hassle. I wouldn't worry about getting the top perfectly flat until it's joined to the base, but the bottom has to be flat enough to make joining it to the legs easy. You don't want to be test fitting that joint anymore than you have to.

That said (in a rambling manner), if the discrepancies you're talking about are the differences between the size of one leg to the next, I wouldn't worry quite as much; rather than trying to make everything perfectly sized so it goes together like a puzzle, you'll begin marking your parts off of each other as you join assemblies together. Having one leg slightly larger than another isn't going to kill things; when all is said and done, you'll most likely be planing the assembled bench a hair to make things like the legs and the top flush and square to each other. If each leg is square to itself and the top, and flush to the top, and the joinery is square and flush and tight, having one leg be a hair larger than the others isn't the end of the world. Inside and outside again - the inside surfaces of the legs need to be true and square, so you build up "boxes" which are square and true, to make adding the top easier.

But if the discrepancies you're talking about are in one leg itself; if the measurements being that far off are the width at one end compared to the other, it can become an issue.

David Keller NC

07-07-2011, 10:45 AM

David - It is possible to work with the imperfections that you list, but my fear is that you will find the way that you will have to work to accomodate those imperfections to be a bit too foreign to deal with. Specifically, if your legs aren't square within about 1/32nds of an inch, you will need to cut your tenon shoulders for the stretchers by clamping the stretcher to the assembled bench and knife a line, then cut to that line. That's quite a bit different than marking a tenon shoulder with a square and cutting to that line, and there's a pretty big learning curve w/ respect to throwing one's preconcieved 21st century notions about work practices out the window and adopting an 18th century mentality, which is "fit the piece to the sapce that's present" on a partially completed project.

It can certainly be done, and many of us are close to "getting there", but it is a radically different procedure to making identical parts (say, 4 legs) that are interchangeable.

george wilson

07-07-2011, 10:56 AM

You aren't far from Maurice Condon Boat Lumber Co.. It is a great place in White Plains. They have a huge variety of woods. I went there years ago,and picked out a lit of quartered Sitka spruce 2"X8" 's. They cut the wood into 5' lengths so I could get it into my station wagon. Nice people to deal with.

Out in the street,in this relatively unpopulated little area,I found .25 cal. empty cartridge cases,but that's the big city for you! So,go there in the DAYTIME!!

john brenton

07-07-2011, 11:27 AM

Test fitting the joint is what killed me. A heavy 3' x 3" x 5" leg with a tight fitted 2" long by 4" wide tenon is a pain in the butt to be pulling in and out, and I just couldn't figure out where the problem was. I was sweating like a pig and had somewhere to go in a few hours, but I was determined to join the legs that day. The tenon looked fine and square, and no matter where I adjusted the shoulders weren't fitting perfectly. I even undercut the shoulder very slightly and it just wouldn't sit perfectly flush.

Funny that I haven't had a problem like that in a long time. I thought the joining the legs would be a breeze, and that the top was going to be the PITA, but it was the opposite. You said it right Josh, with the size and strength of the members, there is just no wiggle room.

David Wadstrup

07-07-2011, 11:54 AM

Thanks so much for your input, everyone. It's unanimous... I need to get closer to perfect. Chris, I'm so happy you spoke up! You said exactly what I needed to hear. Everything you said made perfect sense to me, and I feel like you taught me something important. I knew in the back of my head that I needed to do better, but since I'd gotten a bit tired of working these damn legs, I thought that maybe someone would tell me that what I'd done so far was good enough. Thanks for not doing so!!! I'll give myself a break over the next day or two, and approach them fresh.

Thanks again.

David

Jim Foster

07-07-2011, 12:56 PM

Another Opinion... Good enough when you consider that fact that this is a cut-to-fit piece of work that is a bench and the annual changes in dimensions due to climate will cause variations more than you mention. As an example, when you get the four legs assemble to the stretchers, you transfer locations to the top from the leg tenons, not via a shop drawing.

john brenton

07-07-2011, 1:25 PM

I think that's a valid point Jim and it's been my consolation since Saturday...but I would add "Good enough if you can't do any better." And by that I don't mean skill level, but by what's already been done. For example, if your leg wasn't square when you marked your tenon, and your tenon shoulder is caddwhompus across the length when you test fit, with the high point being the desired height, is it better to level it out and lose the height and then have to adjust all the legs, or just live with it? I chose to live with it, and living with it I shall. I'll be putting some filler in there though...I don't want a gap staring me in the face.

But it sounds like the OP is at the stage where he can fix it.

Another Opinion... Good enough when you consider that fact that this is a cut-to-fit piece of work that is a bench and the annual changes in dimensions due to climate will cause variations more than you mention. As an example, when you get the four legs assemble to the stretchers, you transfer locations to the top from the leg tenons, not via a shop drawing.

george wilson

07-07-2011, 1:40 PM

When I first got into a school shop,and had decent tools to work with for the first time,I was already pretty skillful from previous years of woodwork. My biggest problem was to learn to be more patient,and do the work in proper sequences. Every boy wants to do his project in 1 shop hour! If you learn to be patient,and are good at organizing processes correctly,you can learn to do good accurate work. Whether it is artistic is another whole realm!

Chris Fournier

07-07-2011, 9:57 PM

I'm glad that my input may be of use to you! As George has pointed out, figure out the proper process and be slavish to perfection and you'll be one fine woodworker who produces fine pieces. I have been at this junction that you are at many times and I have gone both ways depending on the project. Your current project demands you take the high road and I'm glad taht you are. Stepping away from the bench for a couple of days is often a good strategy in the woodshop.

It's pretty funny but likely the most important personal attribute that I have found while in the shop is perseverance. Being able to break down a complicated long build into it's constituent steps and processes and having the perseverance to complete each step well and in the right order (even when the horse sees the barn and wants some instant gratification) is really the key to becoming competent.

Now I know what is meant by the crazy decisions made in a 100 degree 80 percent RH shop. I am a time bomb in that environment!

David Wadstrup

07-09-2011, 6:11 PM

David Wadstrup

07-09-2011, 6:28 PM

Chris,

Thanks again. I just finished re-squaring all 4 legs. It took about 5-6 hours(they are massive legs and I'm still really slow), but I was finally able to get them PERFECTLY square and their dimensions perfectly matched. It was really worth the extra effort, and I'm grateful that I was pushed to do it. It also gave me the opportunity to try out a 6-squaring technique that I just read about in Jim Tolpin's new book. (http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9781440304286-0) You are probably familiar with it, but it was new to me and I found it really helpful... He suggests bevelling down to the marking gauge marks before bringing the board down to final width or thickness. It provides a really great visual reference and I don't think I could have done such a good job without it.

Anyways, thanks for the encouragement.

David

Salem Ganzhorn

07-10-2011, 8:58 AM

David, I just finished assembling my split top roubo yesterday. More than once I was thankful that I spent extra time to get the legs perfectly square. So many pieces are referenced off the legs. Same goes for the tenon shoulders. If they are square everything else will be square.

It took me much longer then I expected. And that was with using a mixture of hand and power tools. Good luck and enjoy the process.
Salem

Chris Fournier

07-10-2011, 10:47 AM

Hans Braul

07-10-2011, 5:03 PM

I've first saw this thread on Friday and have been thinking about it all weekend. I can't believe you can be doing all this in your living room with just hand tools! I am in the process of building my Roubo bench. Today and yesterday, I converted a huge pile of 8/4 stock into perfectly dimensioned and squared stock. I also cut all the top pieces to exact length, and I cut the leg top dovetails. All this took me 9 hours. I can't even begin to imagine how long it would take to do with hand tools. You must be an incredibly determined person and my hat's off to you.
Here are pictures of my progress to date:
201308
Since all stock is dimensioned exactly the same, I will laminate the legs into the top with dovetails going in two directions. These pictures give an idea:
201309201310
Regards,
Hans

Harlan Barnhart

07-10-2011, 7:01 PM

Hi David, how's the bench coming along?

David Wadstrup

07-14-2011, 8:00 PM

Hey Harlan,

It's going really well. I've taken a few days off since I finished getting the legs square. I've marked out all of the leg joinery and am planning on digging out the mortises tomorrow. I've been doing nothing but milling since I've started and am ready and excited to start the joinery.

Thanks for asking!

greg Forster

07-14-2011, 10:27 PM

I'm more than a little baffled at how the leg intersects the top?

Bob Winkler

07-15-2011, 8:11 AM

I'm more than a little baffled at how the leg intersects the top?

I'm with Greg- I don't get it.

Bob

David Wadstrup

07-15-2011, 8:43 PM

Are you confused by my sawhorse/torsion box set-up, or Hans' bench's legs?

David Wadstrup

07-15-2011, 9:01 PM

I finally began working on the legs' joinery. I've dug out the 4 largest mortises(there are 12 total) so far. This was my first experience with digging mortises, and I feel like it went well, although slowly. These are enormous -- 1" x 3.5" x 2"deep -- and the first one took me a good hour and a half to complete. My Ray Iles 1/2" mortise chisel is the largest I could find, so the digging wasn't very efficient. I ended up removing most of the waste of the other 3 using my drill press and a forstner bit... MUCH quicker. I felt guilty for about a second, but decided it would be ok to use a power drill in this case if I promised myself that I would dig the other 8 with just the chisel. They will be 1/2" wide, and thus much easier.

Thanks for reading,

David

Harlan Barnhart

07-15-2011, 10:43 PM

Sounds good David. Could you document this progress with some pictures? Mortise chisels are for mortises the width of the chisel. Don't feel guilty about wasting out large mortises with a drill, its much faster. Like you, I work in my kitchen so power tool dust is not cool. I use a brace and auger bit to waste out mortises. It's nearly as fast a power drill.

Andy Pedler

07-16-2011, 1:15 AM

Are you confused by my sawhorse/torsion box set-up, or Hans' bench's legs?

We're all confused by Hans' bench legs. If he really laminates the legs together as shown, then it seems like he has two dovetails on the end, one that wants to slide up through the bench top from below and the other that wants to mate from the front/back.

I'm mechanically declined so I could easily be missing something, but it just doesn't seem like it would work.

Andy - Newark, CA

anthony wall

07-16-2011, 5:19 AM

dave as you live in an apartment you will need to consider that you will probably need to move it someday so build it so that it can be fully or at least partialy dismantled to make manageable to move,good luck with the build

Michael Peet

07-16-2011, 7:39 AM

I could be wrong, but I understood Hans to mean he was going to build the legs into the top during the lamination process, NOT attach them after the top was fully assembled.

Since all stock is dimensioned exactly the same, I will laminate the legs into the top

Mike

David Keller NC

07-16-2011, 8:44 AM

I felt guilty for about a second, but decided it would be ok to use a power drill in this case if I promised myself that I would dig the other 8 with just the chisel.

David - There is substantial evidence from remaining tool marks that wasting the majority of a large mortise with a drill bit and paring the walls square with a chisel was standard practice in the age before the advent of power tools. I've personally seen evidence of this in a circa 1780 timber-frame structure that was taken apart for moving. In many of the mortises, there are the tell-tale imprints of the center spur of a center bit on the bottoms of the mortises.

And honestly, there isn't really much difference in the end result of an electric-powered drill and a brace and bit. It's sort of like a lathe - while many of us have built and used a spring-pole or treadle-powered lathe, a whole lot more of us that are dedicated neanders use electron-powered versions. The end result is almost identical - it is possible to distinguish the interrupted cycle of tool marks on a piece made by the operating characteristics of a spring-pole lathe, but it's exceedingly difficult, even for furniture conservators with a museum's worth of specialized microscopes.

Carl Beckett

07-17-2011, 8:21 AM

Re: working to close tolerances. Besides thanking yourself 5 years later after appreciating the quality every time you look at it, its great practice to get it all 'tight'.

By practicing you will build the skills so that you can build fast AND tight. I am always most impressed by those woodworkers that quickly knock out a joint in one pass that fits together perfectly. Its what makes them so efficient.

A fun project, and more fun that you are doing it in a NY apt.....

Chris Fournier

07-17-2011, 11:35 AM

David Wadstrup

07-20-2011, 6:31 PM

Hi,

I'm at a point, again, where I need some advice. I'm most of the way through cutting the 12 mortises that I'll need to join the rail's tenons to the legs. So far, I've chopped them both by hand and with the help of a drill press. It turns out that using a drill saves almost no time when the size of the mortise is as wide as the chisel. In fact, I prefer chopping it by hand, and I feel like I do a better job this way(although I do appreciate that the drill is considerably quieter). Anyways, these are the first mortises I've ever cut. They are all clean and relatively square. They are by no means perfectly square. Nor do they perfectly match one another. Here are my questions:

How square do they need to be? Do they need to perfectly match one another?

I understand that perfectly matching mortises would be ideal. It would allow me to cut all of my tenons to a standard size that could theoretically fit into any of the mortises I've chopped. My concern, though, is that I would not be able to tune them all square, and tune them to be of identical sizes, without significantly enlarging them. This would not be a good thing. Also, my thinking is that my time and effort would be better spent in cutting and fine tuning tenons to fit the specific mortises that they'll mate with. This wouldn't take any longer than it would for me to fine tune the mortises to a standard size and squareness, I'd bet. Does this sound like reasonable thinking?

And regarding squareness... Is perfectly square on all 5 interior sides necessary? I do understand that the joint will have to be perfectly square. But, I can have a slightly out of square tenon and a slightly out of square mortise and still end up with a square joint, right? If so, is having a perfectly square mortise and a perfectly square tenon necessary? What is your advice?

oh...

In case it makes a difference... The short rails will be permanently affixed to the legs with drawbore pins and glue. The long rails will attach with hardware that will allow me to dismantle the bench -- in other words, with no glue.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate whatever advice you can offer that will help me move forward.

Thanks,

David

george wilson

07-20-2011, 6:44 PM

I don't understand Hans's dovetail legs either. My workbenches at the 18th.C. shop had a straight up and down dovetail on the front edge of the legs,and a straight tenon like Hans's,so they could slide into the top from beneath. I can't see how the tapered dovetail can be assembled.

Tony Shea

07-20-2011, 7:00 PM

It seems as though he plans on laminating the legs together while he is seating them in their given mortises/sockets. Maybe he will drive the straightish tenon part of the leg into the top, which is probably the inside part of the leg, then add glue to the face of that leg. Then pound the dovetail part of the leg into its' socket, which the dovetail socket would need to be on the show edge of the top, which would end of creating a lamination of the legs if all the joinery and dimensions are correct. This is the only way I see this method possible, and even then I think will turn into a nightmare. Too many slight variables that could go terribly wrong and end up with a disaster of a leg. The traditional roubo mortised leg would have made much more sense and be a better outcome even if the the original plan turned out well. We shall see if any of this is the case, hopefully. Sorry to hijack the bench build thread, can't wait to see the progress in pictures of the OP's build.

Salem Ganzhorn

07-20-2011, 9:07 PM

David, I just finished assembling my bench (go to nc woodworker dot org and look for "I started my workbench").

I did the jointery with a combination of hand tools and power tools.

When I assembled my bench my mortises were not all perfectly the same size. This did not cause any real problem because I tuned all the tenon's with hand tools. The router plane got a great workout. At this point I was very happy that the side walls of the mortises were parallel with the sides of the legs. It is also critical that the opposite sides of the stretchers are parallel (the router plane references off of these surfaces to tune the tenons).
I also think the sides of the tenons must be very close to perfectly vertical. You don't want the joint to bind at assembly.
Good luck!
Salem

Michael Peet

07-20-2011, 10:08 PM

Hi David,

I'm no expert but here are my thoughts -

How square do [the mortises] need to be?

As square as possible, particularly in the in-and-out direction; as Salem indicated you want to avoid binding.

Do they need to perfectly match one another?

Nope, just their respective tenons.

I understand that perfectly matching mortises would be ideal. It would allow me to cut all of my tenons to a standard size that could theoretically fit into any of the mortises I've chopped. My concern, though, is that I would not be able to tune them all square, and tune them to be of identical sizes, without significantly enlarging them. This would not be a good thing. Also, my thinking is that my time and effort would be better spent in cutting and fine tuning tenons to fit the specific mortises that they'll mate with. This wouldn't take any longer than it would for me to fine tune the mortises to a standard size and squareness, I'd bet. Does this sound like reasonable thinking?

I think it is easier to tune the tenons. When I built mine I cut the tenons first, marked each mortise from its tenon, cut the mortises, and then did any tuning on the tenon.

Is perfectly square on all 5 interior sides necessary? I do understand that the joint will have to be perfectly square. But, I can have a slightly out of square tenon and a slightly out of square mortise and still end up with a square joint, right? If so, is having a perfectly square mortise and a perfectly square tenon necessary? What is your advice?

The back of the mortise doesn't matter; in fact, the mortise should be slightly deeper than the length of the tenon. As for the other sides, I suppose I can imagine a case where the mortise and tenon are equally out of square so you end up with a square joint, but why make things hard on yourself? :D

One trick to getting square sides on your mortises is to use a guide block.

202505

Mike

David Wadstrup

07-20-2011, 10:19 PM

Michael Peet

07-20-2011, 10:37 PM

Hi David,

Sorry, I've never used the floats. As for the guide block, two additional notes:

1. A piece of folded fine-grit sandpaper between the guide block and work piece will add a lot of friction, which is good because it will prevent the block from moving as you pound on the chisel.

2. Make sure the block itself is square! More importantly, make sure the guide face is perpendicular to the face of the workpiece after you clamp it in place.

Good luck!

Mike

Steve Branam

07-21-2011, 7:48 AM

David - There is substantial evidence from remaining tool marks that wasting the majority of a large mortise with a drill bit and paring the walls square with a chisel was standard practice in the age before the advent of power tools. I've personally seen evidence of this in a circa 1780 timber-frame structure that was taken apart for moving. In many of the mortises, there are the tell-tale imprints of the center spur of a center bit on the bottoms of the mortises.

A fairly standard bit of equipment for timber-framing was a two-hand-cranked boring machine, I assume used for both mortises and treenails ("trunnels"). It had a base that rested on the timber, and uprights for the mechanism, including a rack-and-pinion to guide the bit straight down (I think it also included a drive-gear mechanism to advance the bit). They could take pretty hefty bits that would be a bear to drive with a brace. A fellow had a bunch of antique machines for sale in Nashua this spring, some wood and iron, some all metal.

David Weaver

07-21-2011, 8:04 AM

A fairly standard bit of equipment for timber-framing was a two-hand-cranked boring machine, I assume used for both mortises and treenails ("trunnels"). It had a base that rested on the timber, and uprights for the mechanism, including a rack-and-pinion to guide the bit straight down (I think it also included a drive-gear mechanism to advance the bit). They could take pretty hefty bits that would be a bear to drive with a brace. A fellow had a bunch of antique machines for sale in Nashua this spring, some wood and iron, some all metal.

These are, or at least were, a popular staple at antique markets here (well, in central pa) prior to ebay. They weren't particularly expensive, either, but at the time I wasn't that interested in woodworking, so no clue if they worked or not.

another popular thing people have been hanging on their walls here long before ebay are the T-shaped auger bits (large ones) with fixed handles. My parents used to get a bunch of that old stuff from auctions, almost free. Anything that is pretty enough to hang on a wall now, though, is not quite as cheap. I wouldn't want to turn one of those all day, but it would beat swinging a hammer to cut those deep mortises.

No clue how the amish drilled the holes when I was a kid - might've been the reason there were so many still around. But as time goes on, it gets harder to tell where they still use hand tools.

David Keller NC

07-21-2011, 10:27 AM

Mike,

Thanks for the feedback and for the guide block recommendation. I'll definitely try it tomorrow.

I've been using chisels, too. I was wondering if you(or anyone) has any experience with Lie-Nielsen's joinery floats. Do you think they'd help a novice mortiser out? These (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=542) are the ones I mean.

Thanks,

David

David - Yes, a float is WAY easier than a chisel when it comes to making adjustments to either mortises or tenons. The problem with using a chisel to do this is that it's almost impossible to telegraph your intent to the chisel - it will want to follow the path of least resistance, which in this case is along the grain. A float works more like a file or a rasp, and will largely ignore grain variations.

If you decide to get a joinery float, remember that you must sharpen them - they are not "ready to be used". Sharpening is quite easy with a 3-corner saw file (I would recommend the 7-inch regular taper for this job, though you can use smaller and thinner ones).

And to reinforce your instincts - when using hand tools, there is almost no advantage to making any joinery element uniform and identical to one another. That's a recipe for uncontrolled variations that result in sloppy joints, and is an attitude/way of working that's a product of power-tool woodworking. When doing these operations by hand, there is very little labor savings trying to make parts uniform, and in many cases, it takes more labor than fitting one piece to its mating joinery element.

Jim Koepke

07-21-2011, 1:37 PM

I was wondering if you(or anyone) has any experience with Lie-Nielsen's joinery floats. Do you think they'd help a novice mortiser out?

Not sure, but I might try convincing SWMBO that it was needed just to get a new tool.

when using hand tools, there is almost no advantage to making any joinery element uniform and identical to one another.

I think of joint uniformity as the impossible dream.

jtk

David Keller NC

07-21-2011, 5:43 PM

I think of joint uniformity as the impossible dream.

jtk

Hmm - well, personal opinion here, but I don't see uniformity as a dream (or a goal) - I see it as the voice of the inexperienced. Sort of like the huge number of threads on just about every WW forum that have a title something like "I used a set of feeler gauges and my Jointer fence is out 0.001" over it's length - HELP!":D

Bill Moser

07-22-2011, 7:19 PM

Hmm - well, personal opinion here, but I don't see uniformity as a dream (or a goal) - I see it as the voice of the inexperienced. Sort of like the huge number of threads on just about every WW forum that have a title something like "I used a set of feeler gauges and my Jointer fence is out 0.001" over it's length - HELP!":D

Yup. When I built my workbench, I leveled it with a 6 ft starrett straightedge, and feeler gauges (only down to .0015, I'm such a slacker). That was a great feeling. My bench was really, really flat. For, like, 5 seconds. Mostly, the problem with us (newbies) is that we don't know exactly how much accuracy is needed for a particular job, so we generally tend (once we've f***d up a joint or two) to over compensate. I'm getting better at that, slowly. Two pieces of advice for other newbies:
1) mark the joints that go together (paying attention to the reference face & edge)
2) don't sand/plane/erase these marks before glue-up. Not that I've ever done that.

Frank Drew

07-23-2011, 9:54 AM

And to reinforce your instincts - when using hand tools, there is almost no advantage to making any joinery element uniform and identical to one another. That's a recipe for uncontrolled variations that result in sloppy joints, and is an attitude/way of working that's a product of power-tool woodworking. When doing these operations by hand, there is very little labor savings trying to make parts uniform, and in many cases, it takes more labor than fitting one piece to its mating joinery element.

David,

Perhaps I haven't understood your point, but I think I don't agree with you here, unless you simply mean that each individual joints might need some small amount of final fitting.

David Keller NC

07-23-2011, 10:44 AM

David,

Perhaps I haven't understood your point, but I think I don't agree with you here, unless you simply mean that each individual joints might need some small amount of final fitting.

To say this in more detail:

What power-tool WWs typically do (and I used to do) is strive for very accurate machine setups that produce very uniform results, without "cutting to the line". In fact, if you're producing multiples of something by machine, it is considerably more efficient to use stop blocks, jigs and the like to avoid marking out your pieces.

One sees this often on The New Yankee Workshop, which is a classic machine approach. Norm will cut his mortises with a mortiser, and then spend a few moments fine-tuning his tenoning jig on the tablesaw with a test piece to achieve a good fit. He will then run all the pieces. While this does include a bit of "fitting the piece to its mate", the difficulty with this approach is that every piece of wood is different, and machines and jigs are inherently less accurate than a skilled hand-tool worker.

But there is a great advantage to this approach when making a small production run - you wind up with many rails and stiles that are reasonably identical to each other, and are interchangeable with each other.

Now the opposite approach - when cutting parts using hand tools, you must mark each piece. Many of us have had the unpleasant experience of accidentally erasing these knifed lines and the extreme difficulty in adjusting the fit of these pieces once those marks are gone.

Given that you have to mark each piece of both halves of a joint, it makes much, much better sense to mark the first halves of the joints (possibly by measurement, there's no harm in using the same measurement for the first halves of the joint), and then mark the second half of the joint from the first half, and given the slight variations in the particular piece of wood, mark these pieces from a specific first half (i.e., you have to number both halves of multiple joints to avoid confusing them). This approach does two things: it gives you a better than reasonable shot of having your second half of the joint precisely fit the first half with no adjustment, and if adjustment is required, those adjustments narrow in on the precise mate to the part, instead of a "global mean" of the other, similar parts.

Overall, using the hand-tool approach of fitting a specific piece of wood to another specific piece of wood results in tighter joints and, in my opinion, better craftsmanship than the make-identical-parts power tool approach. However, it has the downside of being much less efficient if you're making multiples.

But - it's much less mind-numbing than freaking out over the couple of thousandths inaccuracy of your table saw fence, jointer bed, or cross-cutting jig. :D

David Wadstrup

07-23-2011, 12:37 PM

John Coloccia

07-23-2011, 6:36 PM

Hello,

This is a little off-topic, but I am a little confused by the performance of my saws, and would like to hear your thoughts. There is a science to saw sharpening which is way beyond my general woodworking knowledge. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that my rip sawing seemed to go more slowly than I would have expected. That I am ripping 8/4 ash partly explains things. Also, my 24" rip saw is 8 PPI, which, I guess, is suited more for 4/4 stock(what I will normally be working with). So, the slow pace didn't really trouble me too much. Today, however, I used my 24" cross cut saw for the first time. It is 9 PPI. I was trimming the 3.5"x5.5" legs to final length, and the saw cut through them in no time at all. I was surprised because I had assumed that cross cutting would be a slower process vs. rip cutting. Is this a mistaken assumption? Out of curiosity, I tried a little experiment. I used the cross cut to rip some of the same wood that I had been working on earlier. To compare, I also did a short length of rip with the true rip saw. Perhaps it was me, but it seemed like the cross cut ripped faster than the rip saw. It also started and sawed as smoothly. Of course, I am now thoroughly confused. Does this sound odd to any of you? Are there any saw experts out there that can explain this performance?

Thanks for your help,

David

The crosscut saw is filed like a bunch of little knives so it CAN start easier sometimes, though I don't really notice a difference anymore and I'm not sure I ever have....it's maybe less grabby. The problem using it to rip is that it tends to push the wood fibers (like lots of little straws) out of the way as opposed to cleanly shearing them off. Now, you have a lot more surface area to push through with a rip saw, that is cut like a chisel, so it will tend to work "harder", if you get my meaning, but you should get a cleaner and straighter cut. I don't know about faster. Splitting wood is faster than sawing it, for example, but we saw for precision.

My guess is that your rip saw is not sharpened very well, but even if it is I'm not sure that I would judge it based on speed. I would judge it based on accuracy. If you think about how a crosscut saw works, there will be wood fibers that are practically untouched and in the way when you use it to rip. Those fibers can easily push things off line and even hang up the saw (you will eventually abrade or break the fibers off but that's not the goal).

Anyhow, that may not be a satisfying answer, especially since you seem happy with the performance of the crosscut saw for ripping. The other question is if your crosscut saw is actually filed crosscut...filed well, anyway. It can be very poorly filed in a hybrid pattern, giving mediocre but similar behavior for crosscutting and ripping. Given a choice in most wood, I'd rather crosscut with a rip saw than rip with a crosscut saw so I have to think that your rip saw is very dull and that your crosscut saw is possibly not sharpened in a true crosscut pattern (or poorly so). A symptom of a poorly filed crosscut saw will be tearout on the end grain. This is from the wide teeth (as opposed to the sharp, knife-like crosscut teeth) grabbing the wood fibers and yanking them as opposed to cleanly severing them.

Hans Braul

07-23-2011, 8:17 PM

I felt guilty for about a second, but decided it would be ok to use a power drill in this case if I promised myself that I would dig the other 8 with just the chisel. They will be 1/2" wide, and thus much easier.

Thanks for reading,

David

I guess this is where I get confused. I get (sorta) why you would take on a project and limit yourself to jus hand tools. It's the guilt I don't get. If it's easier with a Forstner bit, then why not use a Forstner bit??? Seems like going out of your way to make things difficult. But never mind - as I said before, I admire your determination to make this project work and look forward to watching your progress.

Regards
Hans

Tom Vanzant

07-23-2011, 8:36 PM

Generations ago, the cabinetmaker would have his apprentice do the rough work that we might use a machine to do since we don't have an apprentice. Where's the difference in the real world?

David Keller NC

07-24-2011, 10:18 AM

I was surprised because I had assumed that cross cutting would be a slower process vs. rip cutting. Is this a mistaken assumption?

David - To expand on what John C. said, the speed at which a handsaw will cut is influenced by a bunch of differnt factors, not just whether it's filed cross-cut or rip. Obviously, the strength and skill of the sawyer is the biggest influencing factor, but there are many other, less obvious contributors. Some of those are: sharpness, degree of set (bigger set means removing more wood), rake, fleam and shape of the teeth, eveness of the teeth, sawplate thickness, hang angle of the tote (this is the angle formed between a line drawn parallel with the grip and a line perpendicular with the toothline), breasting of the saw tooth line, and probably a few others that I haven't thought of.

As John notes, the principal reason for choosing a rip-filed saw to rip wood is accuracy - cross-cut saws tend to wander excessively when ripping, but that tendency also depends on how well-behaved the grain is in the wood.

David Wadstrup

07-24-2011, 11:16 AM

David,

Thanks to you and John for the saw tutorial. What you said makes a lot of sense, and I now feel like I have a better understanding of how saws work. I'm now of the opinion that my saws are performing just as they should be performing. The cross cut is lightening fast, even through my 3.5"x5.5" legs, and there is only minimal tearout. And the rip tracks incredibly well. I cut a few 8' lines, and I was able to cut straight on the line the whole way though. I thought I was just a natural, but now I'm thinking it maybe had more to do with the saw than my abilities.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and opinions,

David

David Wadstrup

08-03-2011, 10:24 PM

I've spent the time since my last post waiting for a set of Lie-Nielsen's joinery floats to arrive. It turned out that they were the perfect tools to help me clean up and square the mortises that I cut. They looked professional and precise once I was done with them, and I'm glad I made the purchase.

Today I cut my first tenon. It was slow going, but very satisfying work. I'm discovering that I'd much rather spend my time in the shop joining wood instead of milling it. Anyway, I have a question, and hope you can help... The tenon fits into the mortise ALMOST perfectly. The rail meets the leg exactly where it needs to(surfaces flush), and they sit perfectly square to one another. I was actually pretty surprised that this joint came out so well. The one problem, though, is that I'm afraid that the fit might be too loose. How loose is too loose? I read somewhere that each piece should be able to hold onto the weight of the other by friction alone. Is this true in all cases? My leg, for instance, weighs about 20lbs, and the rail's tenon would pull right out if it tried to lift it without supporting the leg. Holding the leg, however, is a different matter. The rail stays joined. It will work itself loose and fall out if I shake the pieces around, though.

What do you think? I definitely will shoot for a more snug fit next time, but am wondering if you think I should try to remedy the looseness of this one? Does it sound too loose? Are there any tricks to getting a tighter fit back? I'd really appreciate your advice.

Thanks,

David

ps If it makes a difference... I'll be securing this joint with both glue and drawbore pins. But keep in mind that this will be one weighty bench and will likely see a lot of stress put on its foundation.

Salem Ganzhorn

08-03-2011, 11:43 PM

If they are going to be drawbored they are probably ok a little loose. But you could also glue some veneer on the tenon to take up the slop. By the way i am nowhere near an expert but i did use drawbored tenons for all my leg joints when i buit my benhcrafted style split Roubo.
Salem

David Keller NC

08-04-2011, 1:56 PM

David - If you draw-bore the joints, and use an appropriate wood for the draw-bore pins, it will make little to no difference if there's a bit of slop in the mortise. The ideal is a flexible, tough and dense. White Oak, Hickory would be preferred, but red oak, maple, etc... will also work.

David Wadstrup

08-04-2011, 6:12 PM

Thanks for the advice, David. Is ash not a suitable choice?

David Keller NC

08-04-2011, 8:15 PM

I really couldn't say, because I live in the Southern US, and ash is not common around here. Presuming that it rives OK, I can't see why it wouldn't work.

Michael Peet

08-04-2011, 9:37 PM

I made my drawbore pins from ash, so it can be done.

Mike

David Wadstrup

08-14-2011, 10:29 PM

Hi,

It's been quite a while since my last post. I've largely been dealing with cutting the rails' tenons. I'm really enjoying learning how to join wood. It's been a little frustrating, though, too. I had a total of 12 mortise and tenons to fit. A good number of them came out quite nicely. Especially for a novice. Four of them, however, required a little extra work. Specifically, I had ended up taking too much off of the tenons which gave me joints that were just a bit too loose. Even considering that I'll be drawboring them. I fixed two of them by gluing a block on to the edge of tenon, paring it back down so the width of the tenon was about an 1/8" thicker than its original size, and then widening the mortise to accomodate. Both came out really, really good, and I'm very happy I took the time and ended up with a tight joint. The other two were only moderately loose, and probably wouldn't have caused any kind of problem once the drawbores were in. I was feeling pretty good after my earlier success, so I tried my hand at getting a tighter fit with these as well. All I did was glue a thick plane shaving on each side of the tenon. It gave the joint just the right amount of snug and was no trouble at all. Is this an acceptable solution? Can any of you think of why this method would not be a good idea?

Now that I have them all together, I have a concern and question. As I mentioned, the joints are tight. They are square. Everything came together nicely. There are, however, some slight gaps in the edges of two or three of the joints. Perhaps gap is too strong a word -- the largest is just a little under a 32nd. They don't run all four sides. In most cases it's just one or one and a half sides. It doesn't seem to me that these gaps mechanically fault the integrity of the base. They are, however, a little unsightly to a perfectionist's eye. What do you think I should do? I have already fiddled with them quite a bit. I'm afraid, though, that I'll be opening a can of worms if I continue -- that I'll end up opening up other seams in my efforts to close the current ones. Part of me just wants to call it good enough. It is a workbench after all. And, I imagine that the seams will most likely open up a bit anyways in the dry winter months. What would you recommend? Should I worry about closing them up?

Thanks for all of your help.

David

PS I haven't posted any photos recently. I've been taking them, though, and will get them up as soon as I find the time.

David Keller NC

08-14-2011, 10:51 PM

All I did was glue a thick plane shaving on each side of the tenon. It gave the joint just the right amount of snug and was no trouble at all. Is this an acceptable solution? Can any of you think of why this method would not be a good idea?

Many of us will fix an occasional "whoops" on a tenon by gluing on a piece of veneer. So long as the grain direction is the same, it should present no issues (and even if the grain direction's not the same, think of it as a really thin wedge)

There are, however, some slight gaps in the edges of two or three of the joints. Perhaps gap is too strong a word -- the largest is just a little under a 32nd. They don't run all four sides.

This defect isn't all that uncommon. THe way to avoid it is to knife your tenon baselines and scrupulously avoid removing them while sawing. That's easier said than done in some cases, though, and that's what a shoulder plane is made for. However, your caution is well taken. You can quite easily wind up "adjusting" 16 tenon shoulders because you cut one down to "perfect", and now that rail is shorter than the rest.

But - you will be quite surprised how much of this defect will disappear when you drawbore it together. Essentially what happens is that the face grain of the frame member with the mortise will crush slightly under the force of the drawbore, and much of the non-square shoulder will be buried in the face. It may not come out cosmetically perfect, but it will be close.

And the old adage of "If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it probably needed replacing anyway" comes to mind - don't do it!

Andy Margeson

08-15-2011, 12:11 AM

I live in Brooklyn, cannot afford separate shop space, and have a very understanding wife.

David

Ya think? Perhaps you do the housework? I would be killed. "Woodworker dies impaled on mortise chisel"

Andy

Ashwini Kaul

08-15-2011, 12:20 PM

You Sir (OP), have a lot of courage and probably lots of Sertoli and Leydig cells!

I started a Roubo build about a year back. The legs/top have been ready for 8 months! I am stuck on the mortises. I have chiselled out 2, each 2"deep, with the help of an Auger and Chisels. 10 more to go! I have been unable to get myself to do anymore! One of these years....

All the best to you!

David Wadstrup

08-26-2011, 9:09 PM

Hello Everyone,

Well, I've finally got the whole base put together. All the joinery is done, the grooves in the rails for the ledgers are plowed, the leg's tenons are cut, and the knockdown hardware installed and working properly. Everything is square, sturdy, and looking pretty impressive(to me, anyways). The next step is installing the Benchcrafted leg vise -- I'm really excited! Here are a few photos of some of the steps along the way.

Marking out, cutting, and fitting my first tenons. These Bad Axe (http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/) saws are an absolute pleasure to use.

David Wadstrup

08-26-2011, 9:18 PM

Installing the knockdown hardware was pretty fun. I was a little nervous that my bolt holes wouldn't meet the holes for the barrel nuts where they needed to. 2 of them met up perfectly right off the bat, and the other to were easy enough to fix after enlarging the hole by a 32nd.

206156 206158 206157 206155

Thanks for following!

Harlan Barnhart

08-26-2011, 9:53 PM

Lookin' good David. You use the same face vice I use. (hand screw clamped to work top)

David Wadstrup

08-26-2011, 9:57 PM

Someone suggested the idea when I first started this post. Maybe it was you!

David Wadstrup

08-30-2011, 2:50 PM

Help!!!

As you all know, I've finally completed the entire base of my Benchcrafted Roubo. I thought I was looking good until last night when I discovered a problem. Perhaps a MAJOR one. I've been following Benchcrafted's plans pretty faithfully. The only alteration I made was to the height of the bench. The plans call for 35", but I figured 33" would be better suited to my planing needs. To shorten it, I had chosen to take the 2" from between the rails rather then below the bottom one. Does this make sense? I didn't think this change would have any repercussions, but I was wrong. It turns out that I may have compromised the strength of my leg vise. It turns out that there is a desirable balance to be maintained when determining the screws placement in relation to the top of the chop/jaw and the parallel guide. Specifically, you want the distance between the screw and the top of the chop to be about half of the distance between the screw and the parallel guide. Because I shorted the length between the rails, and because the rails limit where I can place the screw and the parallel guide, I've made it impossible to achieve the 1 to 2 balance. Here's what I'll have: 9" from the screw to the top of the chop and 11.25" from the screw down to the top of the parallel guide. Benchcrafted has said that I should be ok, but I wanted to hear from anyone else who has experience with this sort of build/issue. Have I significantly weakened the holding power of my vise? Are there any changes you would suggest? Can you help put my mind at ease? I'd really appreciate your help.

Thanks,

David

Salem Ganzhorn

08-30-2011, 7:01 PM

David,
I did something very similar. My bench is 33 tall and I left the lower stretcher 5" off the ground. The screw is 8" from the top of the bench. The parallel guide is 20" from the top of the bench. The vise grips like a pit bull :).
http://photos.ganzhorn.org/album872
The pictures don't show it but I did use suede on both the chop and the front of the bench. It increases grip but I don't love how it sticks out from the front of the bench.
Salem

David Wadstrup

08-30-2011, 7:38 PM

HI Salem,

Thanks so much for sharing the photos. Your bench looks great! Are those ebony drawbores? It's really good to hear that your placement didn't affect the strength of the vise!!! It sets my mind at ease. Were you following the Benchcrafted plans too? You really don't notice a difference in the strength of the vise?

Thanks!,

David

Salem Ganzhorn

08-30-2011, 8:11 PM

David,
yes I roughly followed the benchcrafted plans. I did adjust the height the same as you. And I also drawbored the long stretchers instead of using bench bolts. My benchtop is only 3" thick as that is all the wood I had :). The pegs are walnut, no glue. Time will tell if that was a good decision!

With the suede I have yet to have the vise slip. Just a light turn of the handle and you are good to go!

Good luck!
Salem

David Wadstrup

08-30-2011, 9:31 PM

Salem,

I just had an idea. What if I plugged the bottoms of the upper rail's tenons, and ripped 1" off the height of the upper rail(just on the vise side of the bench). Doing this would leave me with a less tall tenon(2.5", instead of the recommended 3.5"), but it would allow me to raise the screw up an inch. This would leave me with the same ratio you have -- 8" above, 12" below(now I have 9" above and 11" below). Does this make sense? What do you think? Would trimming the tenon compromise the strength/integrity of the base and bench?

Thanks,

David

Salem Ganzhorn

08-30-2011, 10:41 PM

David,
It took me a second to figure out what you meant. My top is only 3" thick so it doesn't interfere with the nut. If your top is 4" thick it may interfere.

Another option is to champher the top rail. Have you laid out the top rail and the nut to see how much they interfere?

Note it is much easier to install the vise with the leg free. I mortised the nut into the back of the leg on the diagonal. This frees up a little more space for the rail. And if it is mortised you could let the shoulder on the top rail overlap the flange on the nut! This works as long as you never plan on removing the nut :).

Salem

David Wadstrup

09-07-2011, 9:00 PM

I decided to put together the roller brackets before starting on the Glide Leg Vise. I didn't expect that making them would be particularly fun, but they turned out to be the most enjoyable part of the build so far. My Gramercy Bow Saw (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=GT-BOWSAW12) turned out to be the perfect tool for cutting out the slots. I opted to make them simpler than the original Benchcrafted design. They are simply rectangular in shape, and I think fit the overall look of the bench

As much as I enjoyed making them, though, I'd like to try to hide the one that will be mounted on the front of the leg. Specifically, I'd like to extend the leg vise chop all the way down to the floor. Another builder did the exactly this (http://benchcrafted.blogspot.com/search/label/Split-Top Roubo), by hollowing out a recess in the back of the chop that would accomodate the roller guide when the vise was closed. I'm not able to do quite the same thing with my 2" thick chop, so I'm trying to come up with some other way of masking the roller guide. I've thought that perhaps I could thicken just the bottom part of the chop with a 1" laminate. The would make it thick enough to carve out such a deep hollow. I'm not sure how it would look, though, and am wondering if there is perhaps a beter way. Does anyone have any ideas or experience with handling this sort of situation? I'd love to hear your suggestions.

Thanks,

David