Opinions on Nicholson super shear (curved milled teeth files)

[Zahid Naqvi]

I saw a reference to it in the SMC archives (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?117161-Disston-float) so I thought I'd ask those who have used them and how they found them in use. I need files for saw handles and totes and knobs for hand planes, not having the famed Nicholson 49/50 my option are quiet open. Lately I have been reading about some of these smooth cut shearing type (milled teeth) files, LV sells a couple options one Japanese (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=63451&cat=1,42524) and one Nicholson (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=56529&cat=1,42524). Just wondering how these things perform. The Nicholson super shear has an added advantage of doubling as plane floats.

[george wilson]

I love mine. They cut like crazy,but for some reason the smallest one they make is never quite sharp like the larger ones are. Of course,these are only made in flat configuration. I mean,these files are so sharp,you can really wear your fingertips out holding onto the front end. Put some masking tape on them! They shear brass like crazy. I wouldn't use mine for steel,as they aren't cheap. A few years ago I bought a Simmonds super shear clone from Travers tool co. It was the same file.

I don't know if you would like their performance on curved surfaces. I HAVEN'T used them that way,but I caution that they might need to be used on relatively flat work to avoid harmonic chattering starting up from too few teeth being engaged in the work. They MIGHT start acting like lead floats.

[David Weaver]

I don't know anything about the super shear, but when I have done saw and plane handles, I've used the following:

* LV's half round rasp (this isn't needed, it's just faster than the sawmaker's rasp for initial rouging in hard woods)
* the gramercy sawhandle maker's rasp - this is, to me, the most important of the specialized tools. Not because you can't get along without it, but because of how much easier it makes working on the inside of the handle and fairing the curves after you do your initial roughing (see wenzloff's page about setting up facets so that the curves turn out even, this saves a lot of time and strife)
* an iwasaki half round file - a small one, but similar to the one LV has there
* an i-wood diamond japanese saw file - fabulous for cleaning notches and leaving the bottoms of them sharp and pointed. A fine saw file would also be fine for most things and leave a pretty nice surface
* a simonds fine cut half-round metal file (not a big one, like 8 inches) that is (I could get along without this, it just cleans up a lot from the sanding)
* a card scraper

And if you're going to be putting defined lines between the curves and the flats, a dowel to wrap sandpaper around.

For bare bones, the gramercy sawmaker's rasp, a half round metal file and a small triangular saw file would get me by. I have a feeling that old sawmakers, if they could only get straight rasps (no idea what convention was) would find someone to bend their rasps for them so that the ends weren't banging into the inside surfaces of the saw handle.

I also use a float to fit the mortise around the spine, but careful chisel work would do the same. A push cheek float is just faster and easier to use.

[Pat Zabrocki]

Zahid,
I know you were looking for opinions on the Nicholsons but you may want to check out the Dragon hand cut rasps. Google dragon hand cut rasps and you'll find a link to Stewart MacDonald. I think they are reasonably priced and the cut wonderfully. I've used them on some saw/plane totes as well as my Maloof rocker and found them to be quite good.
cheers
pat

[george wilson]

I do hope the Dragon rasps are better that what I got for $1.25 years ago from Wholesale Tool. They were identical to the Dragon rasps. I thought they were sprayed with a LIGHT coat of silver paint,but I guess it was chrome,but terribly thin. You could nearly see through it. Other than that,the rasps were soft as butter. For $1.25,I guess you could just wear them out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've heard enough praise of the dragon rasps (at least, the ones Stew Mac sells) from various guitar builders that I'd be apt to think they're probably decent. Stew Mac has certainly been pretty damn good to me as far as returns when the need arises, but it's been a while.

[John Coloccia]

I do hope the Dragon rasps are better that what I got for $1.25 years ago from Wholesale Tool. They were identical to the Dragon rasps. I thought they were sprayed with a LIGHT coat of silver paint,but I guess it was chrome,but terribly thin. You could nearly see through it. Other than that,the rasps were soft as butter. For $1.25,I guess you could just wear them out.

I think these are different...they're not sprayed anything at all. I have a couple of those rasps and they cut very well. I only wish the taper wasn't so aggressive, but for some work it's very nice. I wouldn't use them as a general rasp, though, as he taper is far too aggressive, IMHO.

I have a fairly large collection of files, rasps and other shaping tools. I have quite a few of the Iwasaki files...almost all of them except for one or two that I didn't think were useful. I love those files but they take a definite touch and technique to use properly. I wouldn't part with mine.

I have a Vixen file that I love on aluminum but I always thought it was not ideal on wood. Is the Nicholson configured better for wood?

Don't bother with a new 49 or 50...they are NOT at all like the older ones. I currently have a newer one and it is a different animal. I think they sell for what, like $30+ each? Totally not worth it. Maybe a good deal at $5.00 at a garage sale. At $30 or more, I would not waste my money and would just buy a high quality rasp. If it's rasps you want, I think it's difficult to go wrong with Auriou, and maybe the Gramercy ones at Tools For Working Wood.

[george wilson]

The super shears have offset teeth which makes a vast difference in them not chattering like a lead float. Their teeth,except for the 8" or 10" one they make(which is ALWAYS dull when new),are exceedingly sharp,and really wear your fingers if you don't tape the front end a little. I have bought 2 or 3 of the small ones,and they are always dull. Maybe the Simonds version might be better in the small size,I haven't tried one of their small ones(IF they even make them small). Not sure if Simonds are still made now. A little Googling would find out.

Edit:The Simonds call their file the "Whizcut". They are in 8" and 10" sizes. They claim that they are super sharp. I do believe that the Whizcut I got from Travers must have been at least a 12" file,though. They want to sell them by the box of 12 on the Simonds sites I went to. Suggest contacting Travers for single files. They MIGHT be about $35.00 each(that is what Nicholsons USED to cost for larger files).

I think Simonds might be Chinese now,but there was nothing wrong with the Simonds I got from Travers.

[David Weaver]

I got my simonds files from ebay, there was a seller on there who had gobs of them, and they were US made. I think I paid about $4 for good half round files. I bought a pile of them.

As mentioned above about the dragon rasps, the taper is drastic and the radius is a bit flat to be ideal for saw work. The nicholson 49/50 (i have one of the new 50s) are also too flat to be used as anything other than a supplement.

last I checked, the gramercy rasp was about $50, and it is worth every penny for this type of work.

George, if I ever come to your shop, I'm bringing some cash to go shopping for rasps, rifflers, needle files and NOS early 1900s metalworking files.

I do not have any auriou rasps because there are some things I just like to do on the cheap..... well, relatively. I can live without them. But I really wish there was an inexpensive source for NOS needle files and larger swiss pattern files. I think I paid $50 for the last two grobet files I got, and there were probably a dozen I'd love to have, but it would've been another $300+ to get the ones I liked.

Travers lists the whizcut for slightly under $20 and US made - I had to check because I was curious. I still haven't gotten a good file from china or india (not something I try to get intentionally, but I have tried a couple of unbranded files from machinist supply places that are about $2 per where the supplier claims they are high quality files, only to find them stamped india or china when I get them and find out they are not sharp enough to work even new).

[george wilson]

John,the Dragons could be a different grade of file. They cost what? $40.00? I can't recall offhand. I hope they are better at that price than the same looking rasps I got for $1.25. I would just have case hardened a bunch myself at that price,but not many can manage to do that. Plus,I don't know how the THIN chrome flash plating may have prevented the case from getting through.

Just don't buy the highly touted European made "lifetime" guitar maker's rasps from Luthier's Merchantile. They are soft as butter. I told them so,but it usually does no good. I did case harden the one I bought from them rasther than send it back. They are expensive,and certainly SHOULD have been hardened. Dealing with people who know nothing about tools is frustrating.

Those Chinese files are typical of old time minimalist tool design. Many of their tools are triangular. Chisels,axe heads,and those rasps. It is easy to just chomp out an angled cut to make into a rasp or chisel. I think that is why they look like that. I think they are very ugly,as are many of their traditional tools.

[Dale Coons]

I used to use both the 49/50. But now have a small collection of Auriou rasps, which are handmade (including the teeth, which are individually hand cut), cut beautifully, and are available in many 'grains' (tooth sizes) and shapes--pattern makers, cabinet makers, cranked, etc. They are expensive, but worth every penny. They weren't made for a while a few years ago due to a labor dispute, but they are back in business again. The one place I know they're available is Tools For Working wood (toolsforworkingwood.com). Woodcraft used to carry them until the company stopped making them a few years ago. I've used them for making bows, cabriole legs and general shaping. Auriou is a french company.

[David Weaver]

They are carried by tons of folks (highland, jww, etc), and the best things carries a line of hand-stitched rasps presumably made by folks who split off from auriou in that whole spat.

Price wise, though, they are a bit over the top for cutting a few saw handles and plane totes, though, and probably more appropriate for someone who is going to use rasps on a regular basis for furniture work. (I'm not really one to talk about spending money on tools that will never pencil out in financial sense, but...).

Assuming someone has standard tools like chisels, planes, etc, excellent saw handle work can be done for about an incremental cost of $70. It's likely that the saw handle maker's rasp will leave you with less to correct and less frustrated than any straight rasp when working in enclosed curves, etc. A straight rasp will be constantly working it's point into an opposing face if you work with some speed in saw handles, putting unwanted dings in.

[george wilson]

Those French rasps cost $100-$200 ???

[David Weaver]

http://www.forge-de-saint-juery.com/acatalog/Rasps_for_Wood.html

Something like that, though it looks like the common ones (over here) are in the $100-135 range for cabinet rasps.

You would have to go with smaller modelers rasps and cabinet rasps if you wanted to work in the tight curves of a saw handle and furniture work, though.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I looked at the Gramercy and the Dragon, but look really good but pricey at close to $50 or up each. I can probably get two of the Japanese flat cut files from LV for that price. As an occasional handle maker I don't know if it makes sense for someone like me to invest money into specialty tools, I guess I have to accept the consequently longer time it take to accomplish the results. Since when is time spent in the shop a bad thing. ;)

[David Weaver]

Well, with the gramercy rasp, it's not just quicker, but much better for putting the radius on the saw handle. I would probably not trade it for two flat cut files when putting together a saw handle.

If you do decide to go with files, make sure one of them is a half-round with a fairly tight radius on it, so you don't get stuck cutting that radius with coarse sandpaper on a dowel (grit doesn't stay on sandpaper long on a dowel, unfortunately). You will be able to do the work, though, a multitude of ways.

Before I was making saw handles (and only plane totes), I only used the LV rasp with the black plastic handle - I think it was about $25 - hopefully it hasn't gone up much. It leaves fairly deep grooves, but it can be followed by a coarse metal file that you could find somewhere for $10 and then sand after that.

I would love to have auriou rasps, too, and am not really in a situation where I can't afford them, but I remember long ago seeing a professional woodworker say that they recommended most work be done by coarse cabinet rasps and then cleaned up with metal files, saving the very fine rasps and rifflers for the finest work so that they don't wear out. With all of the speciality files that are out there now, I've just not needed to spend the money, but am not criticizing people who do, though - I have spent much more than they cost on other tools - much more even on supplies to make one tool.

I know that the average person who reads the posts on here doesn't have the stomach to spend like some of us sometimes do, and I am guilty of going with whatever direction the wind is blowing in my head in regard to spending big or not spending at all.

[John Coloccia]

My one warning with the Iwasakis, and this is just my experience, is that they excel at draw filing. If you try to push them straight like a rasp, you will find that they want to tear and catch unless you have an extraordinarily light touch. You can develop that touch, but it takes some work. It's almost like starting a dovetail saw where you take almost all the weight off the teeth. I do that a lot, especially with the smaller fine and extra fine ones, but I just barely let the file touch the wood until it's glass smooth...then I can get a little more aggressive pushing it to fine tune a fit (like a tenon, for example). Beyond that, they are wonderfully aggressive, even the fine ones if you let them, and they leave a remarkable surface given the amount of wood they can take off.

I don't think they replace a rasp. I usually come in with a very coarse rasp to rough it out, and then I start coming in with the Iwasakis to smooth it out and give the final shape. If I had to choose, I would take traditional rasps and some scrapers (as per another thread, CARD scrapers :D ) over just the Iwasakis, but as I said before I would not be without the Iwasakis if could justify the expense. They're wonderful for fixing inside curves when you develop the required touch.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

I've tried quite a lot of rasps and files while making handles. My standard set-up now which works the best for me is:

-for flattening the surfaces after having sawn out the blank a fine file (it's a cheap one but works pretty good on this task)
-for the rough first shaping of the grip a half round Iwasaki carving file (I'm completely hooked how fast the file works and what a fine surface it leaves!)
-for the fine rounding of the grip the Gramercy saw handle maker's rasp (to my eye a must if you intend to make a few more saw or plane handles)
-for working on the lambs tongues especially the tricky groove between tongue and cheeks a one side toothed Japanese saw file (thanks again for the hint, George!)

Actually the Iwasaki milled teeth file replaced the coarse rasp which I've used before. It's at least as quick but better to steer and leaves a way better surface.

The set up works that nice that I don't feel the need to get Auriou rasps although they have a top notch reputation. Maybe I'll change my mind after having tried an Auriou once...

Klaus

[Zahid Naqvi]

Well if it's good enough for Kalus it is good enough for me. We'll see how long it take for me to develop the soft touch the control the depth of cut.

[george wilson]

Some rasps are just TOO SHARP at first. My new (old stock) #49 rasps are grabby as can be. They actually get a little better after that tack sharp edge is a little used.

[Klaus Kretschmar]

My one warning with the Iwasakis, and this is just my experience, is that they excel at draw filing. If you try to push them straight like a rasp, you will find that they want to tear and catch unless you have an extraordinarily light touch. You can develop that touch, but it takes some work. It's almost like starting a dovetail saw where you take almost all the weight off the teeth. I do that a lot, especially with the smaller fine and extra fine ones, but I just barely let the file touch the wood until it's glass smooth...then I can get a little more aggressive pushing it to fine tune a fit (like a tenon, for example).

I've to second that. The file doesn't like to be pushed straight. On handle making that isn't an issue however. If you hold the file a little skew (about 15*) to the cut direction and let it go not only forward but a little sideward, too, it will cut with high amount of control. Then tilt the tool a little bit by using not the center of the half round blade but the area near the side edge and you will see that it cuts with good control and additionally very smooth. Take the left side of the blade if you file sidewards to the right side and use the right side of the blade if you file sidewards to the left.

Klaus