Raised Panel Doors

[Dave Jurek]

I'm about to tackle building a few cabinets here in Houston. Facefames and doors will be cherry and the carcus, a pre-finished birch plywood. Question, I'm going to build the raised panels out of cherry as well and I bought some space balls. Rockler suggests 5/32" I believe to allow for spacing of the insert into the rails and stiles.

My question is building these in the heat of summer, where we're toping 100 F! Do I compensate at all for contraction in the cooler months or just install as normal? Thoughts?

[Chip Lindley]

Unlike the expansion or contraction of metal, wood is known to swell and shrink with it's moisture content. Rather than temperature, consider the humidity in the shop and in your home where the cabinets will be installed. If anything, in Houston's humid climate, your cherry will shrink a bit in your home's controlled environment.

[Dave Jurek]

Good point Chip. I think humidity and heat are synonomous in Houson! So perhaps the thing to do is glue up the panels and let them sit inside my house for a few days before making my final cut?

[Kevin Stricker]

More important is to prefinish the panels before assembly so if/when they shrink you do not have unfinished wood showing on the edges.

[Leo Graywacz]

It is not always possible to prefinish a panel. But it is a good idea to seal the endgrain off with something like lacquer, shellac or poly. The endgrain is where the door will most easily absorb moisture from the air by wicking. If you seal it up then that's half the battle. After the door is assembled the panel bevel will be sealed up and now all the endgrain is closed off.

[Carl Beckett]

I was under the understanding that finishing wood only slows the RATE of moisture migration (the change in moisture content is what causes wood movement). So you cannot stop wood movement by finishing - you can only slow it down so it takes much longer to reach equilibrium.

So if you finish a high moisture content piece in a shop as an example, and then move it to a low moisture environment (inside), it would just take longer to reach equilibrium. But eventually you would get the movement and stresses, etc.

It would be better to have the wood conditioned to the indoor environment before building. Then the gaps and stresses would be closer to the long term state. (but I havent been able to convince my wife to let me store my rough cut wood in our formal dining room........ even though we dont use it much)

[David Nelson1]

It would be better to have the wood conditioned to the indoor environment before building. Then the gaps and stresses would be closer to the long term state. (but I havent been able to convince my wife to let me store my rough cut wood in our formal dining room........ even though we dont use it much)

I'm sure that storing the rough cut wood in the dining area is a bit of over kill. Having said that, after rough dimensioning, stickering the wood indoors somewhere might be the cat’s meow.
Having built a 58 Cadillac engine in the dining area of a three story apt. building, my wife is a bit desensitized to what I might drag in the house. Now how long it stays in is where she draws the line.

[Leo Graywacz]

I was under the understanding that finishing wood only slows the RATE of moisture migration (the change in moisture content is what causes wood movement). So you cannot stop wood movement by finishing - you can only slow it down so it takes much longer to reach equilibrium.

So if you finish a high moisture content piece in a shop as an example, and then move it to a low moisture environment (inside), it would just take longer to reach equilibrium. But eventually you would get the movement and stresses, etc.

It would be better to have the wood conditioned to the indoor environment before building. Then the gaps and stresses would be closer to the long term state. (but I havent been able to convince my wife to let me store my rough cut wood in our formal dining room........ even though we dont use it much)

That is correct. One of the few things that will stop moisture is wax.

I would still take the time to seal everything up the best you can.

[Dave Jurek]

Thanks for the tips!

[Gene Howe]

One last tip. Forget the space balls. Go to ACE and get a roll of 1/4" foam window seal. You'll have enough to do several kitchens! I use short pieces, no need to fill the whole length of the grooves.

[frank shic]

i actually like the space balls although they used to vex me when i was putting the door together. now i use a grex pinner to tack the joints together prior to squeezing everything together with the space balls loaded.

[Charlie McGuire]

I have used ball before, but the last doors I made, I used panalign strips I bought at Sommerfeld. I like the strips much better than balls - easy to handle or trim to any size you like. I also just used them for setting some large mirrors in frames.

[frank shic]

bet they roll around a lot less too lol

[Larry Fox]

I use the Space Balls as well and so far they have treated me well. Piece of advise though, don't drop an open bag of them. I used to keep a coffee can full of them and knocked it off the bench once. 100,000+ Space balls went out and I think I was able to get 3 back. :)

I am currently working on a kitchen with a bunch of rp doors and think I generally go overkill on the space balls with about 12 per door. How many do you guys generally put in?

[frank shic]

i usually just put two on each side so usually 8 per door.

[ed vitanovec]

I used the foam strips with adhesive backing on them, they worked but were a pain to insert them to bottom them out. If you use the foam strips use a 1/4" piece of plywood to press them to the bottom of the groove. I personally like the space balls and use 8 to 10 per door.

[Dave Jurek]

Ok, another question. When I pre-finish the raised panel, I plan to use a stain followed by a poly top. I assume pre-finishing also means putting the poly on? If you prefinish the raised panel, do you finish the rails and stiles separately as well? Do you end up taping off the tenons and the groove to keep the poly out?

[Jeff Monson]

Ok, another question. When I pre-finish the raised panel, I plan to use a stain followed by a poly top. I assume pre-finishing also means putting the poly on? If you prefinish the raised panel, do you finish the rails and stiles separately as well? Do you end up taping off the tenons and the groove to keep the poly out?

Personally I have never prefinished a raised panel. If your are staining, it will bleed enough into the panel tongue. I have never had enough wood movement in a panel to expose an unstained surface. If you decide to prefinish, I would just stain the routed portion of the panel, no topcoat until the entire door is ready. I'd also look at something other than poly.......that is a whole new subject.

[frank shic]

jeff's got a good point regarding stain. on paint, however, you definitely want to prefinish or you will see the ugly shrinkage lines when the weather changes.

[Larry Edgerton]

I compensate for the season. I run my panels a bit tighter in the summer than if they are built in the winter. Has worked for me.

I use spaceballs as well. Ever knock over the container of spaceballs? Wow! Those little suckers can travel! I use 8 per door.

I have a pan and I put about a 1/4" of West System in it, and for wide panels that concern me I stand them up in the epoxy and let it soak in for a while, turn it over and do the other end. This has served me well. I refuse to stain my work, so its not a problem. Your enviroment is extreme on the other end of the scale. I used to live in Kerrville. From one border to the other....

Actually Carls comment is only half right. If a board is sealed well on the end grain it will indeed reach an equalibrium, but it will do it evenly across the whole board, and so there will be little or no stress. It is the different moisture contents across a kiln dried board that cause stress, so if you take precautions to make the board change moisture content evenly, there will be no cracks. As wood looses moisture more rapidly through the end grain, if you seal it better than the face grain you have increased the odds that there will be no problems.

That will be 2 cents please....

Larry

[dave toney]

I know a cabinetmaker who uses plastic soda straws, seems to work fine.
Dave

[frank shic]

I know a cabinetmaker who uses plastic soda straws, seems to work fine.
Dave

brilliance and you can sip your soda through them too!

[David Kumm]

I use 1/4 OD plastic tubing, cut it into one or two inch sections so a few feet last a long time. Also sticks inside the groove. It depends on the tongue you use. I put a 5/8 tongue and groove on all my cutters and use about 7/16 tongue. Makes for a pretty strong door without additional tenons. Just never liked 3/8. Dave

[Leo Graywacz]

I use 23ga pins. One in the center of the top and bottom rail through the panel tongue. Pretty much invisible it yo put a drop of glue and then sand them.

[J.R. Rutter]

A couple of observations on spacers / space balls:

Make sure that whatever you use as a centering spacer is compatible with whatever finish you use. Lacquer thinner is hard on some rubbers and plastics, for instance, and will turn them brittle or otherwise degrade them to the point where they no longer work as desired. Not sure if this is really a problem long term, but I have seen it in doors that used latex tubing as spacer.

On door styles with narrow stiles, especially tall ones, it is possible to bow the middle of the stile out due to pressure from the spacer. Rigid materials are more prone to this. So I would avoid too many side spacers on doors like this.

With too much pressure (not enough space), space balls (unless they have changed the rubber formula) weep some sort of oil that soaks into the surrounding wood. This shows up as a wet looking spot on the panel and frame parts right where the space ball is located. Not sure if this is an issue with most finishes, but I don't take the chance.