Best approach with 7 year old T-12 fixtures?

[Matt Meiser]

When I built out my shop 7 years ago I had a local lighting supply house design a layout and recommend fixtures and bulbs. I ended up with 14 8' commercial grade T12 HO fixtures and F96T12HO/CW/CT bulbs--12 in my shop area which is insulated and kept at at least 42F. and 2 in the storage area which is uninsulated and unheated. The latter are only on when its dark and when I'm in there--they are on a motion detector. They've worked great and the shop is nice and bright.

Fast forward to 2011, the bulbs are starting to get pretty dark on the ends on the ones in the shop so I've been thinking that its getting to be about time to consider re-lamping. Then this week I learned that T12 production is on its way out and it already appears the cost of the lamps has jumped quite a bit from when I bought them. From what I've read, they'll be out of production in a year (July 2012) and I can only imagine what will happen to prices.

I've got three options, I think.


Buy new lamps now, and I'm considering buying enough to do it twice. That would run me about $350 but probably get me 15 years more service. Sounds like it wouldn't be a bad idea to buy a few ballasts for future repairs too.
Junk it all and start over. A comparable fixture with 4 T8's runs a little over $100. With lamps I'd be well over $1800 including 2 sets of lamps.
Reuse the housings with new sockets and ballast covers that would convert them to 4-4' T8's. Looks like those run in the $40-50 range per fixture, plus lamps. It looks like I'd loose about 20% of the light output. Still looking at $1000+ with two sets of lamps.

Looks like the energy savings is about 30% going to T8's I'm thinking for a hobby shop--meaning if the lights are on 10-15 hours per week on average I'd be surprised--that it makes the most sense to stock up on lamps and push out dealing with obsolescence for another 15 years. By then, perhaps LED lighting will be mainstream affordable.

That said, my finishing room is getting T8's!

[Bob Riefer]

As my woodworking instructor likes to say "don't invite trouble". I'd go with what you have for now, who knows what the future will hold.

[Don Jarvie]

Since the t12s are going bye-bye your probably better off changing them out. Since the bulbs are still functional change out a few at a time. Over the next few motnhs you've changed them all.

[Greg R Bradley]

I'm trying to understand how a professional lighting house would have specified T12HO fixtures 7 years ago. Is there some reason that made sense at the time? These are HO fixtures, right? 110 watts per lamp, right?

A replacement 4 tube T-8 fixture that is the same length and width as your existing fixture will be a lot less light as 96T12HO bulbs are usually around 8,000 lumens each.

As long as they were good lamps with electronic ballasts, I think it makes the most sense to buy good lamps and replace them. If they were on all day in a business, other alternatives would start to make more sense. I doubt you will have a tough time getting bulbs or have to pay high prices for a long time. They will disappear pretty quickly from the BORG, etc.

[Matt Meiser]

I think they recommended them (yes, 110w/lamp HO fixtures) so I could use cold temp bulbs, but I guess I didn't really know enough to ask any questions at the time. I know because of my unusually high 12' ceilings there was some concern about adequate light.

I'm all but certain they are electronic ballasts.

[Bruce Page]

I don’t want the expense or hassle of replacing my eight 4 bulb fixtures - I’m going with the reserve stock option. I have been running Sylvania sun sticks for several years and they show no signs of dying so I’m going to order a couple of cases and not worry about it.

[Matt Meiser]

The lighting house I got them from told me this afternoon that 8' bulbs are going to remain available--its the 4'ers that are being phased out. But I think I'll stock up on bulbs just in case. Lowes actually stocks them by me and will order me in however many I want. The lighting house is a lot further drive, so I think I'll get them at Lowes to increase the odds they make it home safe.

[Ken Garlock]

Hi Matt.

If/when you go to new ballasts, buy Advance Philips brand. Advance ballast is an American company that was bought by Philips. Back in 2002 I built a shop as part of our new home build. The electrician said that Advance was the only brand ballast he would install. Granger's has a large selection of Advance ballasts.

[Greg R Bradley]

I think they recommended them (yes, 110w/lamp HO fixtures) so I could use cold temp bulbs, but I guess I didn't really know enough to ask any questions at the time. I know because of my unusually high 12' ceilings there was some concern about adequate light.

I'm all but certain they are electronic ballasts.

I was thinking there was something that made them go with those at that time or that it was much longer than 7 years ago. Cold temp is a big plus of the T12HO at that time, which is why they are still used in outside signs and will continue to be available for a long time. I used some around 11 years ago and they were very unusual at the time for a warehouse BUT we wanted narrow lamps to go in between 16' tall parts racks only 4' apart.

You would not even consider that fixture today but it might be hard to justify changing fixtures to save money on electricity even with full time use. I'm assuming you electric rates are reasonable. Also, converting 8' fixtures to T-8 is somewhat problematic as 8' T-8 are available but pricey and using 2x2 4' bulbs is usually a difficult conversion.

[Rollie Meyers]

I'm trying to understand how a professional lighting house would have specified T12HO fixtures 7 years ago. Is there some reason that made sense at the time? These are HO fixtures, right? 110 watts per lamp, right?

A replacement 4 tube T-8 fixture that is the same length and width as your existing fixture will be a lot less light as 96T12HO bulbs are usually around 8,000 lumens each.

As long as they were good lamps with electronic ballasts, I think it makes the most sense to buy good lamps and replace them. If they were on all day in a business, other alternatives would start to make more sense. I doubt you will have a tough time getting bulbs or have to pay high prices for a long time. They will disappear pretty quickly from the BORG, etc.

110W HO lamps are special purpose lamps (Unless you did what I did 15 + - years ago & bought a case before they left the market) "Standard" F96 HO lamps are 95 watts now & 110W lamps are marked for "Cold temperature use only".

IMO as ballasts age I would give consideration to replacing the HO's w/ 4 lamp tandem T8's.

The Energy Conservation Act of 1992 is what pulled a lot of lamps from the market & brought the 1.6 gallon per flush Water Closet nationwide.

[Greg R Bradley]

A bunch of the 110w HO lamps have disappeared and the 95w do seem to be the first ones you find, others are showing "not manufactured after 7/14/2012 but a number of new 110w have come out that meet the 2012 standard. I was told the magnetic ballasts are disappearing right about now but I can't imagine why anyone would want a magnetic ballast instead of electronic unless you just want the cheapest thing you can get to have your light working again.

I bought GE F96T12/CW/HO/CT last month but I'm buying them from a lighting supplier. Grainger also listed them. I'm not up on the new laws other than my supplier told me that I will have no problem getting lamps in the near future.

I do realize that it was hard to make a cheap toilet work with 1.6gal per flush but the good ones work better than any "regular" toilets I had seen before. You need good ones anyway if you have women or kids around since they can usually manage to ruin just about anything.

[John McClanahan]

If you Google "T12 phase out" you can find the federal mandate on these lamps. If you read carefully, some lamps will still be available for home use. The 110W HO lamps and ballasts are currently exempt from the phase out, as I read it.

John

[Kevin W Johnson]

I'd stock up on bulbs..... 15 years from now, we're likely to have really good low cost LED options.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, I took the approach of stocking up and ordered enough to relamp twice. Turned out the best source was Amazon with "free" shipping via Prime--$4.74/lamp in 10 packs vs. 6-something at Lowes and my lighting supplier. Plus, if they don't make it to my house in one piece its UPS and Amazon's problem, not mine.

Next question: what's the best way to dispose of 8' tubes? Don't think they are going to fit in the recycle bin at Lowes...

[Jerome Hanby]

Don't know how environmentally friendly it is, but I'd collect up a few bad ones, put them into garbage bags (use two and duct tape the joint if the bulbs are too long for one bag, then break them up and drop them in the garbage.


Well, I took the approach of stocking up and ordered enough to relamp twice. Turned out the best source was Amazon with "free" shipping via Prime--$4.74/lamp in 10 packs vs. 6-something at Lowes and my lighting supplier. Plus, if they don't make it to my house in one piece its UPS and Amazon's problem, not mine.

Next question: what's the best way to dispose of 8' tubes? Don't think they are going to fit in the recycle bin at Lowes...

[Thomas Bank]

Don't know how environmentally friendly it is, but I'd [...] break them up and drop them in the garbage.

Not at all environmentally friendly...

My local lighting supplier will take them for recycling for a few pennies each. For our church, they'd give us a corrugated cardboard tube that would hold a bunch and then it was a few bucks when we took it in. For homeowners, they'll take a few here and there for free if you ask nicely.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, maybe I can just ship them UPS. Amazon shipped my 5 cases. I found this note when tracking one of them:


The package was damaged in transit. UPS will notify the sender with the details. / All merchandise discarded. UPS will notify the sender with details of the damage.Edit: OK, this is what I love about Amazon. In the 10 minutes since I posted this originally, they've confirmed the issue with UPS, created a replacement order, and are sending it overnight at no extra cost (and I didn't even ask for that) so that I can still receive it on time.

Edit 2: So of the 4 remaining, 2 are for some reason delayed at the hub 20 minutes one side of my house having missed the trip to the depot 20 minutes the other side of my house and they attempted delivery of 2. The driver picked up one and said he wasn't even going to get it out of the truck due to the amount of "tinkling" inside. So so far I have 1 case. And Amazon set up a second overnight delivery of a replacement. I'm thinking the odds of getting 4 undamaged boxes tomorrow are rather slim. Oh well--I'll get as many as I can at this price and get the rest at Lowes.

[Barry Mabery]

Don't know how environmentally friendly it is, but I'd collect up a few bad ones, put them into garbage bags (use two and duct tape the joint if the bulbs are too long for one bag, then break them up and drop them in the garbage.

I guess it all depends on how you feel about depositing lead in a landfill.

[Jeff Monson]

Well, maybe I can just ship them UPS. Amazon shipped my 5 cases. I found this note when tracking one of them:

Edit: OK, this is what I love about Amazon. In the 10 minutes since I posted this originally, they've confirmed the issue with UPS, created a replacement order, and are sending it overnight at no extra cost (and I didn't even ask for that) so that I can still receive it on time.

Edit 2: So of the 4 remaining, 2 are for some reason delayed at the hub 20 minutes one side of my house having missed the trip to the depot 20 minutes the other side of my house and they attempted delivery of 2. The driver picked up one and said he wasn't even going to get it out of the truck due to the amount of "tinkling" inside. So so far I have 1 case. And Amazon set up a second overnight delivery of a replacement. I'm thinking the odds of getting 4 undamaged boxes tomorrow are rather slim. Oh well--I'll get as many as I can at this price and get the rest at Lowes.

I really like Amazon also, I've had similar experiences with them. The flood of emails is a bit excessive at times but they really stay on top of informing you on your order.

[Kevin W Johnson]

I guess it all depends on how you feel about depositing lead in a landfill.

Don't you mean Mercury?

[Matt Meiser]

I'm thinking the odds of getting 4 undamaged boxes tomorrow are rather slim. Oh well--I'll get as many as I can at this price and get the rest at Lowes.

Odds of getting any tomorrow are slim to none. Of the 4 cases in UPS's hands, 3 are now reporting damage, in addition to the two damaged today. So of the 7 total cases shipped at best 2 weren't destroyed. Off to Lowes tomorrow...

[Ryan Mooney]

I'd stock up on bulbs..... 15 years from now, we're likely to have really good low cost LED options.

Interestingly a co-worker pointed out http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9880 today (he's building a bike helmet light). I'm doing the math they aren't appearing compellingly better than high efficiency T8's (I could well be doing the math wrong, and am omitting it here to save myself the embarrassment :o). If anyone sees how I'm wrong on that.. please do point out how I'm an idiot and can't divide lumens/watts properly :rolleyes:

There appear to be several places you can get bulk Luxeon Rebel assemblies for reasonable looking prices, so DIY LED lamp assemblies could possibly be worth doing.. I should also ask my friend who does LED systems for a living what he'd recommend now that I think about it, seems reasonable to ask someone who knows what they're doing :D Funny how things like that slip your mind..

[Matt Meiser]

OK, these Amazon people are just crazy. I did get one unbroken box today, so 2 of the 7 shipped to date. They have one box left in stock--and they are going to attempt to ship it to me overnight since the damage ratio has only been 50% overnight as opposed to 80% second day :rolleyes:.

[David Nelson1]

Our local transfer station takes the bulb no matter how long they are.

[Jim Mattheiss]

Hi Matt.

If/when you go to new ballasts, buy Advance Philips brand. Advance ballast is an American company that was bought by Philips. Back in 2002 I built a shop as part of our new home build. The electrician said that Advance was the only brand ballast he would install. Granger's has a large selection of Advance ballasts.

That's good news about Advance Phillips ballasts. I have a T12 4' fixture that needed a ballast and my Dad has 2. I bought replacement ballasts at the Blue Borg and installed mine - no issue. I'm doing Dad's tomorrow. He has a stock of T-12 bulbs so it didn't make sense to buy new fixtures.

Cheers

Jim

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't know if this is accurate everywhere or just locally, but I have been told that you cannot change out the ballast and the ends of existing fixtures and keep up to code. The fixture itself is part of the UL listing and by removing the parts that made it UL listing and putting new parts in and not having it UL inspected, it means if you upgrade your existing fixtures, you're not UL compliant.

This probably isn't a big deal for the home owner, but it's about to become a very big issue. Right now a lot of commercial buildings are doing the conversions, but the inspectors are starting to go after it now. So just know that trouble is on the horizon in this change over thing and you can bet somewhere, somehow, the cheap solution is going to get shut down.