Tools and religion....

[David DeCristoforo]

...what do they have in common? Apparently they are both subjects over which wars are started! I am very sorry to see the thread started by Harvey get deleted because it degenerated into a full blown flame war. It makes me not want to post about new tools at all for fear that someone will want to fight over which one is better. It seems like every time someone posts about Glaser, the Thompson camp has to get into the act. And every time someone posts about Doug's tools, a Glaser fan chimes in. Pretty soon people are at each other's throats.

I really like being able to share my excitement when I gat a new tool. And I know a lot of others do too. But I am thinking that it might be downright dangerous to do so!

[Rick Markham]

I Always enjoy a good tool gloat, I'm a Thompson fan... but I want to try Glaser's too (I hope I don't get beat on by both sides) Does that make me a horrible person?

Note to self: "Things not to discuss at "the bar" Religion, Politics, and metallurgy"

[Steve Schlumpf]

David - discussing tools is one of the really good things about this forum! A person should be able to gloat about a new tool, ask about the tools other's use, etc without having to worry about their thread getting highjacked or having a flame war start!

We have had issues with different brands of tools in the past and, unfortunately, we do not allow discussion about those tools any longer because of the flame wars. We do not want that to happen here and will take whatever steps necessary to prevent it.

The thread that was removed is under review. If we deem it proper to delete certain posts and return the thread to the forum ... we will. If it looks like a war will start as a result, then not only will we remove the thread permanently but will remove the offenders as well.

Lets get back to talking woodturning, tools and post some Father's Day gloats.....

[ray hampton]

Steve, if you pat everybody on their back, sooner or later you will pat someone with a bad sunburn

[Gary Max]

Look at the number of folks who won't even Donte a couple bucks a year to help keep the lights on here. The sad part is they find the money to buy a gouge that cost hundreds of dollars.

Better put that soap box away.

[Jeff Nicol]

Boy I feel like I missed out on a good thread and a good meal too! I spent the day sucking up nasty water out of my basement and my kids are all over the place so all I got for supper was a couple of frozen burritos with sour cream and sweet and hot sauce on them!

Tools is tools and if you have the skill to use them $5 or $500 the results can be the same, but the key is patience and desire,

Glad everyone had a great fathers day,

Jeff

[Jon Lanier]

I have found that this is similar to style of music one prefers. Example: Just because I like Rock, does not necessarily mean it is right. Just because I don't like Rapp does not mean that it is wrong. Music style is a matter of preference there is no 'right' and 'wrong'. And so is the choosing of a tool for woodworking purposes. It all falls under the classification of personal preference. I think this is something we ought to keep in mind when sharing our experiences/passions for the tools we use.

[neil mackay]

I really like being able to share my excitement when I gat a new tool. And I know a lot of others do too. But I am thinking that it might be downright dangerous to do so!

[/QUOTE]

Well for me I am interested in the tools others buy and review it helps me make up my mind on what to buy. I enjoy posting my own findings both good and bad for the interest of others.
As to flame wars etc I dont have the time get involved nor do have any interest either for that matter. I kinda got involved with that sort of carry on much earlier in life and have now moved on some.

[Keith Outten]

Tool reviews are important, we need to make sure that we will always be able to share our personal favorites and to be able to discuss both the good and the bad here.

The problem as I see it isn't so much a difference of opinion concerning a particular tool it is people who have a commercial interest in certain tools joining an active conversation about their own products or making comments about their competitors. We are going to make some adjustments here to address this type of situation very soon, in a nutshell I will be reminding everyone to check your business at the door. The rules here forbid anyone from getting involved in a conversation concerning a tool, product, trade show announcement or service that they have a financial interest in....period. The woodworking forums at SawMill Creek are not to be used to provide tech support or sales for anyone's commercial interests.

Our advertisers are only allowed to use the Deals and Discounts Forum and they provide the majority of the funding here. Why would anyone think that they can use our service unless they are willing to reciprocate and provide support for The Creek? In the future when this happens there will be severe consequences for the companies involved.

The last concern I have is of a legal nature. Months ago there was a dispute here that was escalated to a legal action. We were served with a court order to provide all of the threads and conversations involved that took place here as well as information concerning our business agreements with certain advertisers. Responding to the court order required all three of our Administrators to spend a total of 40 man-hours to provide the information requested. We lost money because people tried to use The Creek for their personal gain who were not authorized to do so in the first place.

Advertising Trolls wil be scrutinized by our Staff continuously and when we decide that we have enough data to take action against them we will include the companies that they represent in our corrective action.

Check your business at the door when you visit SawMill Creek, the penalty will be very severe for the individuals and companies that fail to heed this warning.
This new policy will not effect our advertisers in any way, you can easily tell who they are because their usernames are their company names that I created.
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[Jake Helmboldt]

Keith, I hope this doesn't mean that people like Doug Thompson or Paulo can't provide comments or answers on technical questions or similar issues. Doug has often provided very useful info on issues like gouge profiles, metal perperties, etc, both generally and specifically relating to his tools.

I find this whole thing especially unfortunate since we are dealing with two small companies that deal intimately with the turning community, unlike say a Jet vs. Grizzly kind of discussion.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I hope this doesn't mean that people like Doug Thompson or Paulo can't provide comments..."

I think the statement was pretty clear:

"The rules here forbid anyone from getting involved in a conversation concerning a tool, product, trade show announcement or service that they have a financial interest in....period"

This is something that I think Keith and the other mods have "bent the rules" on in the past by allowing manufacturers and/or vendors to answer technical questions about their products when they arise. This has obviously let to some issues for the admins that they do not want to have to deal with again.

When situations like this arise, many manufacturers or vendors will resort to using a "shill", a person who will appear to be a disinterested third party but, who is in reality, working on behalf of the seller. This is not a good situation either. It might be better to allow sellers to provide direct answers to specific questions about their products. I know I have gotten such answers from Jeff Nichol, Randy Privitt and others. But if not having access to this kind of input on the forum is the price we must pay to keep the admins out of trouble, so be it. It's too bad it has to be that way but who needs that kind of trouble?

I for one really enjoy an objective review of a tool offered by a knowledgeable user. These things are not cheap and there are very few opportunities to "try before you buy". And face it. People who like making things are invariably people who like tools, like getting them like using them and especially like talking about them!

[Roger Chandler]

If one has a question related to a product that is mentioned........can a private message be sent to the person such as Randy or Doug, that does not involve everyone else seeing it, and therefore would be a more or less private, not commercial post? Is this permitted?

[Keith Outten]

Jake, sorry but David is right, the policy specifically prohibits those who have a direct financial interest from participating in any thread here that involves their own products. This has been the rule here since day one but we have gotten a bit lax about enforcement. The idea is to prevent what happened a few months ago and what might have happened recently if a particular thread wasn't removed. From my side the idea that The Creek would be dragged into another legal action is flat unacceptable. I can't rely on every business owner that visits The Creek to be respectful of their competitors and I can't keep some of them from taking pot shots at each other.

David, the term shill in my mind is the same as what I call an advertising troll. It is often difficult to catch these people but not impossible. That is why I mentioned that the penalty will be severe. In my mind these people steal my services using my company assets to promote their products without compensation. In the past when we were Member supported this wasn't an issue but when we added advertising to the mix that all changed. We cannot expect companies to pay to advertise here if we allow their competitors to promote their products for free.

Roger, the use of our Private Messaging system here to discuss an issue offline is acceptable as long as the conversation is mutual. The first time a Member of this Community complains that they received spam in their PM box the offending party will lose their privileges.
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[Jeff Nicol]

I think private messages are for that reason, to keep any commercial conversations in the public eye. Anyone can look on ones profile page and see any and all information that is there to send e-mails or check personal web pages, so the PM seems a safe way to discuss what you will.

I had no idea that something got out of hand and Keith and those needed had to go to court to solve an issue that got out of hand. I hope it never happens again and the knowledge that a penalty will be assesed to those who break the rules. I got flagged once and I was ignorant to my failure until Steve clued me in, and since keep it strictly unbiased. I use so many tools of so many types for so many mediums that I think I can gab about most anything. I wish I could be a tester for every and all tools that came out, that would be a dream occupation!

So I will babble like I normally do and learn things from others along the way, SMC is such a great place to come for information from like minded souls and to share with those looking for info on new things.

Politics is scary and Woodturning is a religion, but faith in yourself and those in this big world will keep us all strong!

Thank you SMC, Keith and the MODS who keep us on our toes,

Jeff

[Jake Helmboldt]

Well, that is a bummer Keith, but I understand completely. Having to deal with the legal system is a royal pain, especially when you are collateral damage.

And this thread has reminded me that my contributor status expired a couple months ago. Time for me to ante up.

Jake

[Keith Outten]

It is unfortunate that it has to be this way, we certainly don't enjoy having to police these type of situations. The truth is that we receive more legal threats than most would expect because The Creek has such a large audience and the impact of some threads can move a company ahead or stop em dead in their tracks.

We are moving into our slow season right now but we are experiencing more page views per month than we did during our peak season last year. With over 40,000 unique visitors every day we are an attractive target for all kinds of people whose agendas are often far from woodworking. It has become a full time job to keep The Creek flowing and to ward off the more serious problems that could pose serious risks.

The good news is that our advertisers are am impressive group of whose who in the woodworking world. They are all solid companies who share in what we are doing here and their support is often more than just financial. I seriously doubt we would be as successful attracting this level of advertisers if we didn't have the best woodworking Community in the world. The key is to keep everything balanced so The Creek can flow as smooth as possible but its a 24 hour per day challenge.

Thanks Jake for your continued support, you have been here awhile so you already know how I feel about our Contributors.
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[Reed Gray]

I guess the grey area here is when manufacturers want to explain some thing in their area of expertise. Not all of us can explain some of the details that we are curious about. Promoting should be left to the advertising, but again, that can leave a grey area. No easy clear cut way around it. Too bad we just can't all get along. I missed almost all of that thread.

robo hippy

[Roland Martin]

There simply is not a better place to be found in the woodworking community then the Creek, IMHO. The people who visit, share and learn here are about as civilized as can be found anywhere. I very much value reading tool gloats and "personal" reviews.

Thank you very much, Keith, and all the Mods, for all you do for us, especially the "behind the scenes" work involved in keeping this place a joy to come to. I guess it's easy to take for granted what is not always visible.

[David Hostetler]

Another thank you to Keith and all the mods here. You do a good job on this forum.

I must say though, if you guys think the tools discussions can be divisive, try going to a Linux forum and see the guys and gals there debate over the best distributions... Now THAT is a war!

I see a lot of guys here that brag up their high $$ big iron machines as they rightfully should. By the same token there are more than a few low budget guys out there making do with Harbor Freight, Craigslist specials, and home brewed that are really doing great work. Remember the tool only allows the craftsman to bring out what is already there.

[Bill Wyko]

I've been here for a little while anyway, and I must say, this has always been the best bunch of wood workers overall. As the site has grown, the personalities have as well. Our passion can sometimes get in the way of better judgment but in the big picture, the mods here have been very fair and respectful. What members new and old have to undestand is, this site isn't like so many others. There are more professionals willing to share their knowledge here than you would normally come across. With that comes strong opinions. As long as we can take a step back and remember this and respect other opinions, as a whole we will always be a cut above the rest. I'm just thankful that SMC is run the way it is. Thanks guys.