Sublimation vs. Direct Substrate Printing

[Peter Meacham]

I would like to hear a comparison between sublimation and direct substrate printing. I am sure a comparison between the two methods would be of interest to several folks.

It seems to me that direct substrate printing would be less work, more efficient and less expensive than sublimation. Given that with sublimation, generally, you must use certain coated substrates, heat setting of images, certain (expensive) inks, etc, whereas with direct substrate printing you may not have the same restrictions. Or am I all wet here?

Can anyone with experience in both arenas provide a comparison between the two methods - and, given a choice, which method would you choose if you had to start again?

Thanks, Pete

[Scott Shepherd]

Dye Sub =inexpensive
"Direct to" printer =VERY expensive

You can't just print on anything either, you have to have materials that can accept ink.

I don't know of anyone that's using a small direct to surface printer. All the ones I have seen are large and very expensive.

What type of stuff are you trying to do with it?

[Mike Null]

Pete

I've seen large format direct to surface printers and they are well into the 6 figures. I know a fellow who has one and a bulb costs over $1000. I have not seen table top versions of this printer.

You might also consider color laser transfer as a process. I use it far more than dye sublimation as it's cheaper and more versatile in that you can transfer onto many substrates unlike dye sublimation.

You might do a search as I believe there have been several threads on this topic.

FWIW-- I have a Panasonic color laser printer, an HP b/w laserjet that I use for general printing and laser sublimation and an HP OfficeJet ink jet which I rarely use. (if I need dye sub transfers I outsource them for $1.99 per sheet)

[Peter Meacham]

Scott & Mike

Thanks for your inputs - well, I want to color print on wood and other substrates to produce products related to the wine and horse industries (both in my area).

So, I was thinking about a printer like the Direct Color Systems products or a simular printer. Those small format printers are less than $25K, depending on the model.

I will also look at the color laser transfer, which I have seen mentioned a few times on the forum.

I am not aware of anyone doing Dye Sub in this area to outsource sheets - and I don't have the heat press equipment.

[Scott Shepherd]

Peter, I'd take a hard look at dye sub for those markets. For $2500 you can get a top of the line swing away press, a mug press, and the printer. With those items you can make so many products that are perfect for those markets. Coffee mugs, water bottles, mousepads, coasters, etc. The dye sub surface cannot be wiped off. I'd guess that the printed on product isn't as long lasting.

Photos of horses, people's personal horses on a coffee mug, mousepad, etc. would all be nice products.

Have you looked at dye sub at all, in any detail? The images really are outstanding and very vibrant in color. I love my dye sub! That thing has flat our made us some money. You could always go with the $2,500 on the dye sub setup, then use the money you make from that to buy your direct jet if you still think you need it.

If you need a sample of a dye sub item, send me a PM and I'll send you a sample or two.

[Peter Meacham]

Thanks Scott,

I have looked at dye sub - but maybe I will revisit. I have some samples thanks.

[Larry Bratton]

Scott;
Have you tried the Sublidecal from Johnson Plastics? Great product. I am very impressed with it. I have developed a key tag product using it and acrylic. Give it a try, you'll need a couple of teflon sheets in case you don't have them. It is great for adding sublimated color to stuff that isn't sublimatable, such as wood. The adhesive is such that it is removable and replaceable at first and then after 72 hours it is permanent. It is .01 thickness. Inexpensive too..$1.75 for a 11x17 sheet.

[Scott Shepherd]

I haven't tried it Larry. I haven't had much chance to "try" too many things that I want to try. I'll make a note for that product though. I do need to make myself do it.

I've got the teflon sheets, so we're good to go.

[Mike Null]

Pete

I was wrong about the smaller direct to surface printer. I forgot about it but Roy Brewer who is a FOTC is a distributor.

http://www.engravingconcepts.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=21&Itemid=16

[Martin Boekers]

Scott;
Have you tried the Sublidecal from Johnson Plastics? Great product. I am very impressed with it. I have developed a key tag product using it and acrylic. Give it a try, you'll need a couple of teflon sheets in case you don't have them. It is great for adding sublimated color to stuff that isn't sublimatable, such as wood. The adhesive is such that it is removable and replaceable at first and then after 72 hours it is permanent. It is .01 thickness. Inexpensive too..$1.75 for a 11x17 sheet.


Larry what is the difference from Sublidecal and Rowarks Mates. I use mates for a handfull of things, but dang this stuff is expensive
almost $3 a sheet 8.5x11. It comes in gold, silver and white. I use it to make insets for custom coins (NWT Mint Blanks) It's very durable, but wished it was cheaper.

[Martin Boekers]

Pete is you go Dye Sub seriously consider Ricoh, don't even play with Epson.
Epson printers are nothing but trouble. I was getting out of Dye Sub because of Epson,
Conde talked me into a Ricoh and I use it everyday, not a problem in 2 years!

I would though give the laser transfer a shot as if you have a laser printer the main expense is
already taken. I use both Dye Sub and laser transfer each has their place. Check out Pappilo
as they have tons of material for a laser printer.

One of the neat products for laser printers is water slide decal, pretty neat stuff you can always
seal it to make it more durable.

I transfer color to wood plaques a bit. It's better if the wood is unfinished, as if you don't
cover the whole plaque with the transfer sheet you can get indents where the edge of the paper is.

I would start with laser transfer first, but if you want to sell gifts, coffee mugs, mousepads etc you will need Dye Sub
I buy coated hardboard stock (.125) in sheets this great for Dye Sub as the laser cuts it easily so I can do shapes
or make photos to attach to plaques.

Have fun these will open up some new territories.

[Mike Null]

Pete
There's an NBM show in Long Beach in August where you can see some of this stuff first hand. • Long Beach, Calif. - Aug 11-13

[Larry Bratton]

Larry what is the difference from Sublidecal and Rowarks Mates. I use mates for a handfull of things, but dang this stuff is expensive
almost $3 a sheet 8.5x11. It comes in gold, silver and white. I use it to make insets for custom coins (NWT Mint Blanks) It's very durable, but wished it was cheaper.
Never used the Mates because of price. Like I said, I bought 11x17 sheets for $1.75 and cut them in two to fit my Richo's size. That's .88 a sheet. They have it in silver also but it's $3.18 for 11x17. I got some of that Subliflex stuff, and it may be OK, but I processed it at the wrong temp on my first attempt. I tried the Sublidecal and I would think for an award or anything like that it would be perfect.

[Bill Overturf]

We use Sublidecal for alot of things. One it can be laser cut I have done it many times. 2 It says its not outdoor durable but I made a sticker for the window of my wifes car its been there for over a year and looks as good now as the day I put it on. We have used it to make our own mylar inserts and also used it to put full color logos on banners only down side is the size limits

[Martin Boekers]

We use Sublidecal for alot of things. One it can be laser cut I have done it many times. 2 It says its not outdoor durable but I made a sticker for the window of my wifes car its been there for over a year and looks as good now as the day I put it on. We have used it to make our own mylar inserts and also used it to put full color logos on banners only down side is the size limits

Thats good it's laserable as I laser the insets before I transfer to them. The coins have been ok for me just starting to take
off a bit. I like them and think they are pretty neat. The "Mates" are very durable so it is a good combo
I do poker chips to so this sounds like something I'll give a shot as it is quit a bit cheaper.


Thanks I'll get a few sheets on my next order!

[Larry Bratton]

We use Sublidecal for alot of things. One it can be laser cut I have done it many times. 2 It says its not outdoor durable but I made a sticker for the window of my wifes car its been there for over a year and looks as good now as the day I put it on. We have used it to make our own mylar inserts and also used it to put full color logos on banners only down side is the size limits

The instruction sheet says it's waterproof but that doesn't make it UV resistant. It will surely fade over time, but so will almost anything else that is made with an ink process. I suspect it would hold up pretty well with limited exposure to the sun and elements. You could make some nice door plates with it.
Just as a side note, I found some white coated hardboard at Lowes for $13.00 for a 4x8 sheet! Cut this in the laser to whatever shape you want and sublidecal it , wahla, inexpensive product with high perceived value.

[Bill Overturf]

I have actually done that a few times with the hardboard. I'm sure it will fade at some point but so far so good. Also wanted to mention Johnson Plastics has it in a 12 inch by 50 foot roll I dont have anything to do with pricing or ordering but if thats what my boss buys I'm sure its the cheapest way to get the most for your money!

[Martin Boekers]

Johnson Plastics and Conde both sell coated hardboard I use it quite a bit.

It's a nice product with many uses!

[Larry Bratton]

Johnson Plastics and Conde both sell coated hardboard I use it quite a bit.

It's a nice product with many uses!

This hardboard is just coated with something white,,it's not sublimation poly coat. But cheappppp! Yes, I like the sub coated product too. Colors just pop out. The FRP and aluminum work well too.

[AL Ursich]

I have the 12 x 50 foot roll.... I make Reflective License Plates with it... cover the license plate with white reflective and trim. Apply the Mates over it... Yes, it can fade but so far everyone has been happy with it.... I do the Hitch Covers the same... Making a reflective insert... Then I fill the cover with Epoxy Dome.... Now that has a greater perceived value.....

Reflective Stickers too....

This method will need to DO until I get the $41K to buy a UJF-3042.... LOL.....

AL