Gabardi and Sons

[Chris Vandiver]

Does anyone know if Gabardi and Sons(infill plane makers)is still in business?

[Mark Baldwin III]

As far as I know, he is still in business. Matt and I have talked quite a bit this spring, and he didn't indicate that he was going out of business. It's been a few weeks since we last spoke, though. He's a good guy, and really helpful.

[Bruce Page]

There is an active thread on the subject over at WoodNet.

You might want to check it out if you haven’t already.

[Mark Baldwin III]

There is an active thread on the subject over at WoodNet.

You might want to check it out if you haven’t already.
:eek:

Well, I hope its nothing as serious as that. Matt struck me as an honest, stand up guy. Hopefully everything's OK, and he's only hit a minor bump in the road. I would hate to see a bunch of dissatisfied customer's and a ruined reputation.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Hey Mark, if you have contact with him you may want to point out to him about the discussions on woodnet and here. Such things can cause some serious damage to one's reputation. Reminds me of another infill kit seller (Shepard I think) who ran into some business problems and it got ugly at the end. I hate to see any tool maker run into business issues.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Hey Mark, if you have contact with him you may want to point out to him about the discussions on woodnet and here. Such things can cause some serious damage to one's reputation. Reminds me of another infill kit seller (Shepard I think) who ran into some business problems and it got ugly at the end. I hate to see any tool maker run into business issues.

My contact with Matt is not much more than customer and business. We just happened to have a friendly e-mail conversation that spanned a few weeks and he shared a lot of insight with me. I had planned to e-mail him tomorrow, but just sent one out a little while ago. If/when I hear back from him, I'll let you know. I agree with you, Zahid, I would hate to see anything turn bad. Coming from a family that spent many years in the small business world, tough times can hit like a whirl wind and your whole world can come crashing down in a heart beat. I always try and hope for the best.

[Kris Ingmanson]

Rescinding a Recommendation: Gabardi & Sons (http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/rescinding-a-recommendation-gabardi-sons/)

http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/

Chris Schwarz says he has heard from several customers and a creditor that Matt is no longer returning calls or emails. When Chris' inquiry was also ignored he asked that his recommendation be removed from the Gabardi & Sons website, which is still there as of now.

[David Weaver]

Chris did the right thing. There is so much pull with his recommendations that if he didn't come out plainly like he did, people would keep sending money. I'm sure he knows more than we know, but even if he didn't, it'd still be the right thing to do.

There is a lesson to learn here, about payment for custom work, but I don't want to paint with a broad brush and possibly injure other folks who may take payment in full up front and always deliver.

I learned the lesson the hard way on a custom instrument several years ago.

[george wilson]

Taking too large a cash payment up front just reduces the sense of reward the craftsman is going to receive at the end. I just don't think it is good psychology to take a big down payment. If something does go wrong,it also makes it difficult or impossible to repay several customers. I take nothing from established customers. I suggest taking just enough money to insure that the customer is committed to buying the item when it is finished.

Williamsburg would instantly refund money without any good reason. We were stuck a number of times with custom ordered instruments. One time we made a cittern with the lady's initials in the rose in the soundhole. When we contacted her boyfriend,who ordered it(an airline pilot) he canceled the order because they had broken up! That was a pain!! We had to remove the laboriously made rose and make another. Another time,I made a violin. The old man who had ordered it had even written the V.P. of the whole dept. to hurry things along. When I got the instrument done,he cancelled the order,because his wife had made him buy a new house. THAT was really aggravating. Especially as I had been put under pressure like that. The guy had even said he was very old,and hinted that he was dying!!!:)

I think that a non refundable reasonable sized down payment with a contract is in order for customized work,but not too large an amount.

[David Weaver]

Taking too large a cash payment up front just reduces the sense of reward the craftsman is going to receive at the end.

Not to mention (totally unrelated to this) if a "more important" or larger order comes in, the customer can just be strung along because the incentive to give them priority goes away. I learned the lesson by paying for a guitar order in full from a company I had bought two off-the-rack instruments from. Every time a new order came in, my stuff went to the back of the line, and eventually became an afterthought or nuisance, apparently, to the maker to finish since the incentive was gone. They eventually rushed it, sort of a wait wait wait wait, ...hurry up! kind of thing and now I have a poorly made (actually worse than that, defective and not ethically sellable) guitar.

I wouldn't have returned the deposit to the two folks you're mentioning. Ultimately, the customer still has responsibility when placing the order. It goes both ways, but there's a reasonable middle ground that should maximize the chance that everyone stays honest and is optimally incented.

[george wilson]

Those airline pilots were always buying things. Had a lot of money,no doubt. But shouldn't buy 4 figure items for iffy relationships. His girlfriend had had me make the guy a nice brass miter plane previously. We all had lunch together at the King's Arms Tavern. I slipped the waiter the plane in its wooden case,and had him bring it to the table. Guess she wasted her money.:)

[Jon van der Linden]

Payment schemes for custom items vary a lot. But just try and order a "custom" piece of furniture from a furniture store without payment in full. I don't know of any around here that will take anything less than full payment, I'm sure there are other schemes in other places.

What about ordering cabinetry? Very common to have either a 50% to start and the balance on or prior to delivery, or 30% to start and 30% progress, and balance on delivery. Not to mention charges for changing specs in mid production, or storage fees for clients that don't make final payment or aren't "ready" for the cabinets... that will never happen right?

Timelines are also critical to having a good outcome in any agreement. An acquaintance hired a landscape architect to create a design, which after months of waiting wasn't forthcoming... the architect stopped communicating (and didn't answer phone calls etc.) but delivered the plan almost a year later... and then placed a lien on the house to receive payment. There was no time limit in the agreement and so the architect received payment.

Personally I divide payment schemes into a two main categories 1) Items that will be completed within 6-8 weeks and have a moderate price (full payment) 2) Items with longer timelines or higher prices where there will be various options for deposit/progress payments.

It's really difficult to know if you're dealing with crooks like David was with his guitar, and almost impossible to prevent unless they understand that you're going to be a problem from the getgo, which usually means they won't take the job! I think these kinds of problems are very common in construction. Recently I was giving some advice on contractors to an acquaintance who had just purchased a house, his response was "Contractors are thieves and crooks, I know, my father is one!"

[george wilson]

I hate dealing with contractors just about worse than anything!!! Getting my building done TO SPEC and following the drawings I took weeks to make were like pulling teeth. The contractor had a bunch of jobs going on,and supervision on this job was incredibly sloppy. I finally got things done right,but it was uphill all the way. Even getting them to put the stairs at the correct angle was a big deal,though I used a standard stair template,and gave clear directions for it. Mexicans were sent who didn't speak a word of English,and my Spanish does not include technical terms like "exhaust fan",etc.. NO one was there to direct them except me. I couldn't help but wonder if they were legal!

These guys presented themselves as born again fundamentalist Christians.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I have one item I make only special order because it is labor intensive and I allow some customization. I take a full 100% deposit except for repeat customers who have a history with me or are members of the Old Tools list. Granted that while my quoted delivery at time of order can vary depending on work load it has never been more than 7 weeks even at the busiest of times. The worst I have done on delivery was 2 days late on a quoted 5 week delivery. I find that the up front money helps separate the serious from those who order and then cancel immediately. I don ot start work until the money is received. For my standard products I maintain stock and ship within 1 Postal Service shipping day excepting weekends. I don't make tools as my primary income, but I don't run a charity either. A clearly defined and written policy protects all involved and removes MOST chances for misunderstanding. I chose my way and that does not in the least effect the validity of the way other folks choose to operate. Different products, different circumstance, and different needs means to me that there is no realy right or wrong about deposits.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I'm a bit disappointed right now, but I'm going to give Matt a little more time. I sent a down payment on a small smoother back at the beginning of May, understanding that it was going to take some time. I paid with pay-pal, so I have a route for filing a complaint through them. My investment is considerably smaller than some others, and I understand that they are angry. I was making a squeeze to buy the plane as it was, and my money could be well placed into other interests.
In the end, I hope Matt finds a way to right things with his customers. It may do little to repair his reputation, though. Trust is a tricky thing, and once broken is hard to mend. I'm going to hold out hope just a little longer.

[Bill Satko]

Mark, per the online PayPal user agreement, one of the requirements is that you:

"open a Dispute within 45 Days of the date you sent the payment, then follow the online dispute resolution process described below under Dispute Resolution."

I also just saw this requirement:

"Pay for the full amount of the item with one payment. Items purchased with multiple payments – like a deposit followed by a final payment – are not eligible."

This seems to me to exclude getting any recovery from PayPal for a down payment and then not receiving the item. You might want to check with them directly and see what your options are.

[David Weaver]

If it's not 45 days so far, open a dispute right away. Paypal won't do anything if there's no money in his account (and nothing attached to it to get money), and there probably isn't. But it's better than nothing, I guess, on the off chance that there's some money in his account.

Paypal's protection is pretty meaningless if there's no account money and if you're past the deadline it's totally meaningless. I would use USPS money orders in the future for long-term projects.

[Mark Baldwin III]

45 days passed last week (before I knew a thing about this issue). I was thinking 90 for some reason. I will double check the terms with pay-pal though. If that is indeed the case, then I will just continue trying to contact Matt.

[Joel Goodman]

The thing I don't get is not responding to emails or the phone. Most of us are pretty understanding about delays but just keep the customer in the loop -- it might be embarrassing to own up to problems but it's free!

[Pam Niedermayer]

The thing I don't get is not responding to emails or the phone. Most of us are pretty understanding about delays but just keep the customer in the loop -- it might be embarrassing to own up to problems but it's free!

You tend to be very depressed when your business fails.

Pam

[Mark Baldwin III]

You tend to be very depressed when your business fails.

Pam

Agreed. I sent Matt another e-mail this evening. I seriously doubt that he had bad intentions. I made it clear in my e-mail that there are several people that would like to hear from him (including myself) and that it would mean a lot if he offered an explanation. I will understand if hard times have hit and he's having trouble making ends meet and filling orders. I will just stay positive about the situation and hope that whatever it is that happened gets resolved.
I would feel really bad if I bad-mouth the guy just to find that there has been some sort of tragedy that has affected him and his business. Matt hasn't wronged me, I sent a down payment for a product that I knew would take time to complete. Really, I am more concerned that something bad has happened.

[george wilson]

You are very understanding,Mark. I hope your understanding is the right thing and things get worked out properly.

[philip marcou]

It would be useful if someone on this forum could establish the facts/ show the reasons for this situation, as it doesn't look good at all.
I agree with George about taking large pre-payments and favour asking for a 50% down payment from new customers.
I hope this thread is not pulled as was done on Woodnet Forums as the outcome is important to me since us small tool makers are negatively affected by the underhand dealings of other tool makers, or the machinations of so-called web site jockeys.
Believe me , I speak from experience.....

[David Weaver]

45 days passed last week (before I knew a thing about this issue). I was thinking 90 for some reason. I will double check the terms with pay-pal though. If that is indeed the case, then I will just continue trying to contact Matt.

Well, if you go through this whole process and find out he's tapped out, it won't make a difference, anyway.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Phil raises an important issue here about generalizations. Every tool maker is different and has dfferent circumstances. While Chris Schwarz has retracted his recommendation because of complaints, we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions or libel anyone. Remember that unsupported comments which lack provable facts are damaging so be careful about what you write. This is not a slam at anyone here or anything said so far, but rather a "heads up" about your personal responsibilities. I don't frequent Woodnet because of time issues, but I'll bet the thread was pulled because of a complaint or complaints about how and what was said by someone posting. They are probably worried about have Gabardi & Sons sue for libel. It does happen folks, and the time and effort expended by everyone involved including the owners of websites such as this who have to answer subpoenas and provide documentation is huge. Free speech has both responsibilities and consequences.

[John Coloccia]

Phil raises an important issue here about generalizations. Every tool maker is different and has dfferent circumstances. While Chris Schwarz has retracted his recommendation because of complaints, we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions or libel anyone. Remember that unsupported comments which lack provable facts are damaging so be careful about what you write. This is not a slam at anyone here or anything said so far, but rather a "heads up" about your personal responsibilities. I don't frequent Woodnet because of time issues, but I'll bet the thread was pulled because of a complaint or complaints about how and what was said by someone posting. They are probably worried about have Gabardi & Sons sue for libel. It does happen folks, and the time and effort expended by everyone involved including the owners of websites such as this who have to answer subpoenas and provide documentation is huge. Free speech.

Not to derail, but I've always wondered why website owners don't publicize these kinds of things more. It would give the market a chance to show what we thought of this kind of stuff.

[philip marcou]

I stand corrected: the Woodnet thread was not "pulled" , it was "locked" meaning we can still see what was said but no further posts are to be allowed. I believe there was good reason for this action as it was heading in the wrong direction (free for all/bun fight/ skirmishing resulting in needless casualties etc not to put too fine a point on it).....So it is stalled pending further investigations and we will most likely see more later.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I stand corrected: the Woodnet thread was not "pulled" , it was "locked" meaning we can still see what was said but no further posts are to be allowed. I believe there was good reason for this action as it was heading in the wrong direction (free for all/bun fight/ skirmishing resulting in needless casualties etc not to put too fine a point on it).....So it is stalled pending further investigations and we will most likely see more later.

It was probably a wise choice as the chance for things getting hostile in that thread was real. I'm not a member there, I just kept up with the thread. Still waiting for some news, though. We shall see.

[Derek Cohen]

The reason the WN thread was locked was probably a result of the posts I made at the end of the thread. Keep in mind that at the time I wrote, Christopher Schwarz has not put pen to paper, and only two individuals had come forward with a personal experience - all else was just a bunch of guys weighing in with schoolyard opinion.

I wrote: "... the reason I have stayed away from this thread until now - is that a trial-by-forum is most unfair. 99% of those responding here (myself included) would not know Matt Hodgson from Adam. We have no way of knowing what is going on. Now I am not saying that he is innocent. What I am saying is that, until the last few posts, and after a great many others, it appears that there were only one perhaps two affected parties. And even this is rumour. All others here are weighing in with criticism .. all without proof of guilt and possibly open to counter claims of slander..."

There was more, but I choose not to get into that at this point.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

It can often be difficult on runaway threads like that to figure out who has any personal connection to a deal, unless people state up front that they are or are not affected. I went and read that thread and got the sense that it was locked because it had served its purpose early on and then ran away into a "that guy's a bad guy, he needs to be harrassed" kind of thing.

Philip - I think half down is customary and appropriate in a lot of custom work. I think that is a good balance on things like infill planes and musical instruments where the materials are a fairly substantial cost and it can take some effort and loss to sell a product if the person making the order decides to back out. If they decide to back out and leave you with half the money and the plane, then I see that as fair compensation for them having backed out, even though in our society these days, lots of folks seem to think that because wal-mart lets you back out of whatever you bought for any reason, that such a thing should extend into customized multi-thousand dollar items made by individuals.

Anyway, half seems very fair to me, keeps the lights on in the interim and keeps everyone incentivized properly.

[george wilson]

As you read,David the words "maybe he's a crook" were used.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I wrote: "... the reason I have stayed away from this thread until now - is that a trial-by-forum is most unfair....

Well stated Derek!

[Chris Griggs]

Christopher Schwarz has not put pen to paper, and only two individuals had come forward with a personal experience - all else was just a bunch of guys weighing in with schoolyard opinion.

You make a good point Derek. I will also add that Chris Schwarz retracting his recommendation is to me very different then a bunch of uninvolved people just weighing in with what they think. I think Schwarz was careful not to bash the plane maker. He simply stated that he could no longer recommend his business, and gave his reason for it. He no doubt felt obligated to do this as a journalist. It seems like when that happened a ton of folks on woodnet jumped in an began their of "trial-by-forum". It is indeed probably a good thing that the thread was locked, but also that it wasn't erased.

Anyway, I have no involvement in the matter, and therefore won't make any comments on the issue/planemaker. As the administrator who locked the Woodnet thread said, "The general public has been warned by the OP and now it's up to the lawyers and other qualified parties to step in."

Now, I'm ready to get back to seeing and discussing all the cool tools George, Derek, David, et al. have made.... (which begs the question, why did I bother to post too this thread at all???)

[Mark Baldwin III]

Now, I'm ready to get back to seeing and discussing all the cool tools George, Derek, David, et al. have made.... (which begs the question, why did I bother to post too this thread at all???)

Maybe because it's always good to hear some level headed comments? Back to gawking at George's tools...

[bertrand challier]

My name is Bert.
I was a "friend" of Matt.
Matt has disappeared and the house where he used to live and to work is for sale.
I had a conversation about him last night with common acquaintance (whom is very well known in the woodworking world) who gave a lot of help to Matt.
I do not want to repeat what this person told me but I very strongly recommend that you do not send any money to Matt or that you do it with great precaution.
I am very sorry to have to write this but I feel that this is my responsibility to do it.
Bert

[Mark Baldwin III]

Thanks for the update, Bert. I did notice that Matt's website was taken down recently. Whatever issues that he has gone through, I hope he works them out. It seemed like he had a good reputation before all of this happened earlier in the year. I don't know how he'll ever be able to get a scrap of that reputation back. Which is too bad. Still wishin' I had my plane...or the money I paid for it!

[John Townsend]

What I fail to see is why anyone would pay $1100+ for an infill plane upfront. Secondly, even if they were to buy one with a deposit: why? As an example, a dovetailed Norris A6 smooth plane is not that hard to make -- and certainly not difficult enough to warrant $1000+. Nor is an Norris A1 panel plane. I can't imagine why anyone would pay such outlandish prices. And thirdly having watched Gabardi videos it was apparent that he didn't even think to cut out the waste of the dovetails with a fretsaw fitted with a metal cutting blade but instead tried to bang way at the mild steel waste with a cold chisel. Another thing that struck me in watching the video: if you make these all the time why didn't you make a dovetail gauge that will tell you when you have filed the tails and pins to the exact widths necessary? It almost seems he's a amateur down-in-the-cellar operation charging Sauer or Holtey prices. Not to mention he forgot (or never knew) a first principle of business (besides location): "word of mouth is your best marketing"

[Mark Baldwin III]

What I fail to see is why anyone would pay $1100+ for an infill plane upfront. Secondly, even if they were to buy one with a deposit: why? As an example, a dovetailed Norris A6 smooth plane is not that hard to make -- and certainly not difficult enough to warrant $1000+.

For the exact same reason I traded my Harley Sportster for an Aprilia super bike. Sure, the sporty is cheaper and more practical. But the Aprilia is rare (about 500 of the model I have), and faster than just about anything else on the street. You could buy a Porche boxter, or spend $10,000 less for an S2000 and have a better performing car. It's just one of those things, I guess. ;)

edit: thought of a better analogy. One of my coworkers is a former knifemaker. The other day he was telling me about selling a folding pocket knife for $600. I can go to any hardware store and get a decent enough folder for under $20. Again, it falls under the category of "just one of those things."

Anyway, maybe it's time to close down this thread. I don't need a constant reminder of the fact that I got taken for a fool, and had my pocket lightened by a few hundred bucks. Luckily I'm not one of the guys who lost $1000 or more in this drama.

[Charlie Stanford]

Does anyone know if Gabardi and Sons(infill plane makers)is still in business?

Why was a guy named Matt Hodgson doing business as "Gabardi & Sons?"

Sounds like warning sign number one to me.

[george wilson]

John,have you tried making a decent infill plane? For $1100.00 I'd be eating beans. It just takes too long to make a good one.

[Derek Cohen]

Right George.

John, if you go to this link you will see some of his work: http://www.handplane.com/Planemaker-Gallery/categories.php?cat_id=82

He built some really gorgeous planes. If the later work was as shoddy as some reported, then I wonder what happened. Rushing? Overworked? Heart no longer in it? Shepherd Planes overextended themselves with their combined aggressive marketing, work shops, and manufacturing methods. They eventually gave up. Most recall them fondly, nevertheless. Was this the case with Matt as well? Will we ever know the full story?

He was (or claimed to be) a luthier. I imagine (if this was so) that he would have returned to this area.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Metod Alif]

George,
I made me several infills of a very simple design. I did it in search for a better (for my hands) ergonomics. First some woodies, then I wanted to find out what it takes to make a decently performing infill (of the same design).
Being slow as I am, $1,100 would be below the poverty line. Even if I did not like beans, I would eat them to add something to the 'marketing aura'...
Having the same design/dimensions in metal and wood versions was a good way to compare their differences.
Best wishes,
Metod
Best wishes,
Metod

[george wilson]

As many tools as I have made,thankfully I was salaried by the museum to make them. I made many tools on my own,but could not have lived on what I was getting for infills. I mostly made them because I enjoyed doing it.