Which do you prefer LN HAF or 50 degree iron w/LA BU?

[Jim Paulson]

Just checking to see your take on one of two options for planing tiger maple for a table top. I'll either buy the LN 4 1/2 HAF @50 or 55 degrees or I'll buy the 50 degree iron for my LV LA BU. I'm game to invest in one or the other, but not both. Which do you suggest? Please know that I'm not interested in utilizing back bevels or resorting to micro grind approaches. I appreciate that those might have worked for others. I'm looking for an approach that I can use repeatedly and I prefer to focus on either a separate frog or dedicated iron.

Thanks,
Jim

[Mark Salomon]

Well, it's a bit of apples to oranges isn't it? The LN is at 50* or 55* and the LV is at 62* degrees (50* + 12* bedding angle). I have both planes and if I have very gnarly wood I get better results with the LV. In fact, I usually just sharpen it with an even higher angle than 50--up to 58* works for me. The LV is harder to sharpen if you use a honing jig than the LN but if you fiddle with it you can make it work. If you get the LV get it with the 25* and simply sharpen it at a 50 or higher angle--it's much easier than trying to hone that massive 50* across the entire bevel. Good luck

[David Weaver]

I can't really make much of a comment here (BD vs. BU) because they will both work if set up properly.

BUT

If you already have a common pitch bench plane / smoother, and the intent is to buy a smoother that will work difficult woods (and not necessarily white pine, too), then a BD plane should have a 55 degree frog.

There is not a significant difference in what you can handle with 50 degrees but can't with 45. It is more significant at 55 degrees vs. 45 by quite a bit.

With a sharp iron, smoothing curly/tiger maple shouldn't be too much of a challenge. With care, it should be doable with a common pitch bench plane unless there are parts of it where the grain runs back into the direction of planing pretty consistently. Thin shaving, tight mouth, sharp iron.

[Tri Hoang]

At 55+ degree cutting angle, the wear on the iron is pretty significant after some usage, especially on more abrasive woods. With BU planes, this wear occurs on the back of the iron. For me, it takes more effort to re-sharpen the BU iron vs a BD iron.

[Jim Paulson]

David,
I certainly appreciate your comment on the 55 degree LN frog offering more benefit on tough grain than the 50 degree one. It makes sense.

Thanks guys,
If it is basically a draw on the differences between using the HAF and using a high angle iron in a BU plane, I might try a replacement iron and use it with a higher bevel angle.

I was looking for a good reason to ignore the fact that the frog is not quite twice the price of another BU iron. I'm still listening.

But Tri's idea of expecting greater wear on the back side of the BU irons has got me thinking too.

Jim

[David Weaver]

The fact that you have to do a lot less cambering on the iron of the 55 degree frog is reason enough for me.

I haven't gotten a BU bench plane out away from the chute board since the last time I needed to trim a large span of end grain. At one time, i had a bunch of them. Now I have one, and only for trimming end grain.

Your thoughts may be different based on what you gravitate toward with more hours of use, but I would imagine you'll end up with a fairly strong personal preference one way or another.

[James Scheffler]

With a sharp iron, smoothing curly/tiger maple shouldn't be too much of a challenge. With care, it should be doable with a common pitch bench plane unless there are parts of it where the grain runs back into the direction of planing pretty consistently. Thin shaving, tight mouth, sharp iron.

I just got some curly maple for the first time, and found that my Stanley planes work fine with no back bevel - at least with the particular board I've used so far. Even my No. 6, which has a wide open mouth. I really expected to have all sorts of problems with it. So maybe try whatever planes you already have, and use a cabinet scraper for whatever spots of tear out you get? That's my plan....

Jim S.

[Jim R Edwards]

Lee Valley bevel up planes for me. I have sold most of my bevel down planes and the ones that I havent sold are going to be sold soon. I did use a bronze LN #4 with a 50 degree frog on some highly figured curly maple at their show in Tampa Florida and it worked superbly. I did not get any tear out and the plane is very well made so in my opinion you wont be disappointed with a LN but for my taste I like bevel up planes.

[Derek Cohen]

Just checking to see your take on one of two options for planing tiger maple for a table top. I'll either buy the LN 4 1/2 HAF @50 or 55 degrees or I'll buy the 50 degree iron for my LV LA BU. I'm game to invest in one or the other, but not both. Which do you suggest? Please know that I'm not interested in utilizing back bevels or resorting to micro grind approaches. I appreciate that those might have worked for others. I'm looking for an approach that I can use repeatedly and I prefer to focus on either a separate frog or dedicated iron.

Thanks,
Jim

Hi Jim

The wood I work is especially hard and high in interlocked grain. I have been using high cutting angles for many years. Indeed, (bevel down) HNT Gordon planes, with their 60 degree bed and cutting angles were designed especially for the Australian woods. In all, I probably have an equal number of BD and BU planes with high cutting angles. A fewpoints:

High cutting angles start at 55 degrees. Forget 50 degrees - it is not significantly greater than 45 degrees. 60 degrees is better for much of my work, and I will even go higher.

I have looked into the differences in effort of pushing BD and BU smoothers with equal high cutting angles. There should be no difference as the cutting angle is the same), but the BU planes are consistently easier to use. When the chips are down and I need to make the best shaving possible, I reach for a BU plane (LV BU Smoother, Marcou, amongst others). There are a number of BD smoothers I like. The HNT Gordon range are excellent. The little Brese smoother (mine is 60 degrees), and my bronze LN #4 1/2 with 55 degree frog. But they are not as sweet to use as a BU smoother when working hardwoods.

My sharpening style leads me to use BD planes more than BU planes, which may appear to contradict the above. The reason is simply that I freehand sharpen blades were I can, and BD blades are easy to do, since the bevel angle is not critical and I can work on a hollow grind, while BU blades require an accurate secondary bevel on a honing guide. This is not an issue for those that use honing guides anyway.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I would agree with Derek, although my experience with high angle BD planes is somewhat limited. I use a Muji 60* smoother, 55* LN 4 1/2, LN BU smoother, and a LV BU Jack. For most of my work I usually just reach for my BU planes and actually prefer the LV Jack. I typically have flat enough surfaces that it takes very little time to get my surfaces smooth with a 53* iron I have set up for this plane. Just a micro bevel on a 25* iron per Derek's advise. Easier to get the proper camber on the lower initial bevel iron. I love my LN 4 1/2 and use that a ton, but when it comes to difficult wood the BU planes get the call 9 times out of 10.

[Jim Paulson]

High cutting angles start at 55 degrees. Forget 50 degrees - it is not significantly greater than 45 degrees. 60 degrees is better for much of my work, and I will even go higher.

I have looked into the differences in effort of pushing BD and BU smoothers with equal high cutting angles. There should be no difference as the cutting angle is the same), but the BU planes are consistently easier to use. When the chips are down and I need to make the best shaving possible, I reach for a BU plane (LV BU Smoother, Marcou, amongst others). There are a number of BD smoothers I like. The HNT Gordon range are excellent. The little Brese smoother (mine is 60 degrees), and my bronze LN #4 1/2 with 55 degree frog. But they are not as sweet to use as a BU smoother when working hardwoods.

Derek

Derek and others, I am blessed by your input here. I confess that I'm leaning on investing more time with BU planes for now. But the honestly about your experiences of using one tool versus another is quite helpful, especially for someone who needs to spend more time in the shop:o. It is kinda embarassing that after all these years, I haven't invested in a high angle frog too. But that is what happens when you finally challenge yourself to work with tougher grain and then suddenly it matters which tool you opt to pick up for surfacing. I'm getting there on my next project of building a couple period pieces with irregular grain. God bless you guys.

Jim

[Matt Owen]

I'm a bit amazed at the consensus that 50 degrees isn't much different than 45 degrees. When I was at a LN Hand Tool Event, I spoke with Konrad Sauer for a while, and he said he's never had any wood that he couldn't smooth with a York Pitch. I tried one of his planes with with a 50 degree bed on some tiger maple, and I could plane in either direction with absolutely no tear out. Also, the blade had been used a fair amount since it's last sharpening. I'm sure the .004" mouth had something to do with it, and the fact that Konrad makes some pretty amazing planes, but I think there is definitely a difference between 45 and 50 degrees. I guess if we could all just use Konrad's planes for our work, tear out would just be a thing of the past.:)

[David Weaver]

50 degrees in a tightly made infill is different than 50 degrees on a cast plane where all of the parts move or an open woody. The mouth on an infill keeps the plane from prying anything appreciable up and keeps you out of trouble.

Burl and crotch wood would probably separate the men from the boys a little better.

If all of us can't afford konrad's planes, all of us could build something that is functionally the same with some time and not too many tools, including the .004" mouth.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Matt

That is testimony to the excellence of Konrad's workmanship. Similarly, I can use my Marcou at 55 degrees and it will still outperform most other planes at 60 degrees. But these are exceptional planes, and exceptions to the rule. On the woods I use I can easily tell the difference between a LN #4 1/2 with a 50 degree frog and 55 degree frog.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Paulson]

Thanks Derek!

I love the LV BU Jack with the 50 degree bevel for working tiger maple. I opted for the extra blade at 50 degrees and applied a heavy camber, about an eight inch radius, as one of your earlier posts recomended. It is sweet and tearout is neglectible.

I also opted to buy the 55 degree frog for my LN 4 1/2 and after scaling back my cut to what a smoother is really designed to do, take really thin shavings in the thousands of an inch, wow it is awesome too on the tiger maple.

I confess I couldn't go the route of buying the LV BU Jointer, but I added a 15 degree back bevel to a new IBC replacement iron on my Bailey #7 and it works great. I probably could have used a 10 degree back bevel, but my honing guide with my worksharp kinda limited me for now to a 15 degree bevel. It is better anyway. I'm embarrassed that I didn't try this technique a long time ago.

I am totally impressed with the BU planes, but this happened to be the most cost effective way for me to plane the tiger maple so I can build a couple 18th century reproduction tavern tables. Maybe down the road I'll venture to change out a couple planes to acquire the BU smoother and the Jointer, but wow the 4 1/2 with the 55 degree frog is pretty sweet when you get a handle on setting it up. The LN folks are great at helping you over the phone too.

God bless,
Jim