Did anyone catch the table saw safety piece on NPR this morning?

[Zach England]

It was sure dumb.

[Joe Angrisani]

Was it a replay of the one where they never mention the lack of use of the safety guards by the injured dolts?

[Zach England]

To their credit, they actually did mention safety guards. One of the rebuttals that manufacturers are making to the CPSC is that guards are now less inconvenient and better designed, causing consumers to be more likely to use them.

[Rod Sheridan]

In my opinion, we either adopt safety procedures and guards of our own free will, or someone (legislators) will adopt it for us.

Unfortunately, we've demonstrated that we won't adopt safety procedures and guards by ourselves, to the extent required. (Just read polls in this forum, or watch the "experts" on TV who don't use guards etc).

So, by our choice we're now at the point where someone is going to do it for us, whether it is the SS technology or a similar product.

It was only a matter of time, just like belt guards, riving knives, blade guards etc.

If I understand correctly, every time you go to use a SS saw, you have to manually disable the protection if you don't want it active. There will be people who do that out of spite, however unlike removing the guard once, the manual overide will be required every time.

Eventually it probably will be forgotten and then function as designed to provide an additional layer of protection.

The other missing item in my opinion, is for manufacturers to provide a set of guards, or a guard that can be used for both through, and non through cutting operations. Then there would be no excuse for not using safety devices.

Regards, Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Joe - No, this was a new one where they didn't mention it. The industry reps that got a smidgen of [read: insufficient] air time weren't exactly stellar - they need to roll out some communicators, if that's the best they've got. They accurately made their key points, but they didn't come across with the timbre or authoritative trustworthiness that they will need. I doubt Brian Williams shills for products - too bad.

One of the Feds they talked to pointed out that, in the 50 years since regulations were enacted to prohibit refridgerators that could lock someone inside, there has not been one single death because of that. That was actually impressive to me. Good job. But - that is an example of protecting people [in this case - our most valuable and vulnerable people - little kids] that simply are not capable of higher reasoning, or of controlling their actions or evaluating causal events. Food and drug safety, lead paint in toys, etc. fall into this category - I'm not capable of evaluating e coli in food before I eat it. Also - they referenced mandated seat belts. I'm all for those as well - an unknown impending catastrophic failure of a steering component or tire, or an unanticipated incoming drunk moron on a cell phone piloting 2 tons @ 60 mph. But - neither are relevant comparitive examples, IMO.

[Zach England]

The industry rep claimed that requiring SS-like safety features would eliminate the lower end of the market for table saws costing $1-200. I doubt anyone here would bemoan that.

Really, I just thought it had been too long since this forum had had a good sa****p argument! :)

I am sure there are plenty of hacks to permanently bypass the safety switch, anyway, for people who really want to. If SS has a simple dipole switch then all you need to do it break that circuit.

[Jim Rimmer]

[QUOTE=Rod Sheridan;1722523] The other missing item in my opinion, is for manufacturers to provide a set of guards, or a guard that can be used for both through, and non through cutting operations. Then there would be no excuse for not using safety devices.QUOTE]

+1 on this. I have a "newer" saw with a riving knife and blade guard that are easy to use in most cases. However, when doing a non-through cut I get concerned. Fortunately, I've been around power tools long enough I really examine the situation and do dry runs, use push sticks, look for what could go wrong, and try to determine if there is another way to do it. A non-through cut guard would be nice. I have no idea of how to do it, though.

I assume (shame on me) that the TV experts remove the guards for clarity but I sometimes wonder about them. I've seen them reach over a spinning TS blade after a cut. I've seen TWW use the gripper push tool and it seems to offer a great deal of protection from the blade. I just hope that as the Feds and lobbyists push for more protection that there are alternatives developed rather than having it all in one basket. I guess since I have what is probably my last TS I don't have to worry about it.

[Zach England]

I don't use the guard on my Jet. There. I said it.

[Bryan Morgan]

I use guards most of the time. What I won't tolerate is somebody telling me I HAVE to use one.

[Bruce Page]

Really, I just thought it had been too long since this forum had had a good sa****p argument! :)

A discussion on the Sawstop saw is OK...but the subject of its need or perceived politics behind it is not.

[Zach England]

A discussion on the Sawstop saw is OK...but the subject of its need or perceived politics behind it is not.

It's a little bit of levity.

[Bruce Page]

I'm just sayin'...:)

[glenn bradley]

It's a little bit of levity.

Oh man. Now Saw Stops levitate!?!:eek: That's it, I'm gettin' one :D:D:D

[Kent A Bathurst]

Oh man. Now Saw Stops levitate!?!:eek: That's it, I'm gettin' one :D:D:D

Be careful there, Glenn ol' pal...there's more to it than you might think. I was sitting here last evening, and read your post just as you posted it, and...Shazzam!!..the internet connection crashed followed immediately by the power going out followed immediately by a series of hellacious thunderclaps. :eek:

You might be punching above your weight class. :D :D

[Bob Riefer]

New guy here, with some new guy questions...

1)
Would you say that work with a dado stack of blades is the (most?) common "non-through cut" that would make it inconvenient (impossible?) to use the gaurd and splitter? If yes, for one-by-one work (i.e. non-mass production environment.. hobbyist level) couldn't the same objectives be achieved with a router, thus eliminating "working without safety features" issue? Or am I oversimplifying?

2)
What are some reasons anyone would ever want to work without a gaurd, splitter, and push tool? Is it lack of training, bad habits, being stubborn, being "tough", being lazy, or is there a true quality of work advantage? To date, I have done 99% of my work on my table saw using all three of these safety features - the only exceptions being a few instances where I was required to to lift the gaurd to accommodate the fence being set very close to the blade (but I still used the splitter and push tool). I can always see the cut very well, and have not felt limited in any way - in fact, I'd feel strange not using these safety features (that "this is wrong" buzzer would go off in the back of my mind). But perhaps I'm just a newbie?

[Zach England]

1)
Would you say that work with a dado stack of blades is the (most?) common "non-through cut" that would make it inconvenient (impossible?) to use the gaurd and splitter? If yes, for one-by-one work (i.e. non-mass production environment.. hobbyist level) couldn't the same objectives be achieved with a router, thus eliminating "working without safety features" issue? Or am I oversimplifying?

This may or may not be true depending on the work one does. I can think of a million reasons not to cut a dado with a router. For one, my router table or any sort of jig I could devise is not nearly as accurate as my table saw and its fence. I cannot adjust the width of the dado by tiny increments with a router unless I want to make multiple passes, thus increasing my chances of error. I am not convinced it would be any safer and I hate using routers. I think they are fiddly, noisy and generally blunt instruments.



2)
What are some reasons anyone would ever want to work without a gaurd, splitter, and push tool? Is it lack of training, bad habits, being stubborn, being "tough", being lazy, or is there a true quality of work advantage? To date, I have done 99% of my work on my table saw using all three of these safety features - the only exceptions being a few instances where I was required to to lift the gaurd to accommodate the fence being set very close to the blade (but I still used the splitter and push tool). I can always see the cut very well, and have not felt limited in any way - in fact, I'd feel strange not using these safety features (that "this is wrong" buzzer would go off in the back of my mind). But perhaps I'm just a newbie?


I depends on the saw. My Jet saw has a poorly designed guard and it is a pain to take it off and put it back on. It has anti-kickback pawls that catch on my miter gauge. The visibility is poor. The guard has to be mounted exactly right to not interfere with the off feed. I once tried to modify it to make it more convenient to use, but gave up. I should revisit that project. In short, it is what I would call convenience, but you could also call laziness. If I were buying a new saw I would probably have looked for one with a better guard system, but when I bought this saw used it was a good deal and in my budget. It actually did not come with a guard and I bought one from Jet and tried using it for a while, but it was just too much hassle.

I do always use a splitter when possible and generally use a push stick.

I frankly see the guard as unnecessary for making the cut. If my fingers are going to be anywhere near the blade I am doing something wrong. I have push sticks and a zero-clearance miter gauge for a reason. Where I do believe the guard would be beneficial is while the blade is still spinning after the cut--in the event that I drop a scrap over the blade or happen to have a part of my body in the wrong place.

[glenn bradley]

read your post just as you posted it, and...Shazzam!!..the internet connection crashed

Its a gift :D:D:D

[Bob Riefer]

Thanks for the reply Zach, I can definitely see your points about the dado topic. Follow up question on that:
- Since that cut would (unless you have an overarm guard) require removal of the guard, the remaining safety steps one could take would be to use a splitter that is shorter than the cut they're taking, and using a push tool. Is that right?

Also, you wrote:

I frankly see the guard as unnecessary for making the cut. If my fingers are going to be anywhere near the blade I am doing something wrong.

I see that as the entire point. When something unforeseen occurs, the guard can save the day. But, I'm not trying to be preachy or anything like that, just trying to learn. I hope my intent comes across alright. Thanks again! :)

[Chris Kennedy]

New guy here, with some new guy questions...

1)
Would you say that work with a dado stack of blades is the (most?) common "non-through cut" that would make it inconvenient (impossible?) to use the gaurd and splitter? If yes, for one-by-one work (i.e. non-mass production environment.. hobbyist level) couldn't the same objectives be achieved with a router, thus eliminating "working without safety features" issue? Or am I oversimplifying?

2)
What are some reasons anyone would ever want to work without a gaurd, splitter, and push tool? Is it lack of training, bad habits, being stubborn, being "tough", being lazy, or is there a true quality of work advantage? To date, I have done 99% of my work on my table saw using all three of these safety features - the only exceptions being a few instances where I was required to to lift the gaurd to accommodate the fence being set very close to the blade (but I still used the splitter and push tool). I can always see the cut very well, and have not felt limited in any way - in fact, I'd feel strange not using these safety features (that "this is wrong" buzzer would go off in the back of my mind). But perhaps I'm just a newbie?

I can cut dados more accurately and faster with my tablesaw than I could with my router. I tend to use my tablesaw for as much as possible, mainly because it is accurate and has the largest work surface.

I have a zip code saw, and I was raised around my dad who almost never used the guard and splitter unless he was doing a really long rip. So, I started with my guard on, and on about the second or third cut, the wood passing under the guard caught the front and pushed it laterally into the blade. Having a guard that hits the blade seemed counterproductive and so away it went.

Fast forward a couple of years, and I had an unforeseen circumstance (a bird flew into the shop) and realized that there was potentially some serious danger there. So, I now have an Excalibur guard. I have had a microjig splitter for years and wouldn't work without it.

As for working without guards and the like, my guess (and I stress, this is my guess) is that people find that they can work faster without them and that for most run of the mill operations, the increased danger (for lack of a better word) is negligible.

Cheers,

Chris

[Zach England]

Thanks for the reply Zach, I can definitely see your points about the dado topic. Follow up question on that:
- Since that cut would (unless you have an overarm guard) require removal of the guard, the remaining safety steps one could take would be to use a splitter that is shorter than the cut they're taking, and using a push tool. Is that right?


When cutting a dado the splitter does not really accomplish anything. the idea of the splitter is to prevent the work piece from getting skewed in relation to the blade, so unless one has a splitter the precise width of the dado being cut there isn't really anything to be gained.

[Joe Angrisani]

Plus...

When cutting a dado you aren't getting an off-cut piece that can kickback. In a through-cut, a splitter keeps the piece that's against the fence from drifting into the teeth as they come up out of the table and back towards you. Since the workpiece remains in one piece for a dado, it's different from a through-cut.

If you want to use a splitter, it would have to be slightly shorter than your dado, and even with the edge of the teeth closest to the fence. But I see no need for a dado splitter.

[Bob Riefer]

Gotcha, makes sense. Thanks again! I learn a bunch every day on this forum. :)

[Greg Peterson]

One safety feature of the guard not mentioned is DC. An over blade guard generally facilitates DC, or at least a good guard will.

I almost bought the Grippper but then I realized that on many cuts where its design excels I would have to forgo the blade guard, and thus DC.

I have a Shark Guard and while I generally like it, it is a bit wide so I have to pull it off frequently.

[Mike Henderson]

I can cut dados more accurately and faster with my tablesaw than I could with my router. I tend to use my tablesaw for as much as possible, mainly because it is accurate and has the largest work surface.

Cheers,

Chris
I'm just the opposite. I prefer to cut dados with a router. The reason is that when you cut them on the table saw, you have to be very careful to keep the wood pressed down on the table or the depth of your dado will vary over the length of the dado.

While this might sound easy, sometimes the panel may have a bit of bend in it which can cause the panel to be slightly higher in one or two places (usually middle or ends). You may not even notice the difference in the depth of the dado. Then, when you glue up, you're locking the bend in the wood into the final project.

With a router, the router follows any variation in the panel, cutting a consistent depth. Then, when you glue up, the clamping will straighten out the panel, rather than locking in the bend.

Mike

[Roy Turbett]

In answer to question #1, I find it easier to set up a stacked dado in my tablesaw because I can easily adjust the width to match the mating piece. I have a "story board" with multiple dado cuts on it that lists the cutter heads and shims I used to achieve each cut so I can easily match the mating piece to correct size dado.

In answer to question #2, I have a 4' x 8' outfeed table on my Unisaw and can't put the stock guard on or take if off without moving the table. I also don't like not being able to see the blade with the guard on and it gets in the way of narrow cuts. Instead, I use the Delta 78-431 splitter whenever possible. However, this won't work with a thin kerf blade. In this instance I make my own zero clearance insert for the particular blade and cut a slot in the back for a homemade splitter.

[John Coloccia]

re: dados

I do them with a router. It's trivially easy to do dados that aren't parallel to an edge. Think of how many design opportunities are missed because the table saw only conveniently makes straight, parallel lines.

re: everything else
I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable to require things like riving knives and guard be available for use, just like seat belts are required in cars. I don't like the idea of being forced to use either. I think that should be a personal choice. To that end, having them easily removable and replaceable is win-win for everyone. I have to say that SawStop really took the lead on this and designed a very simple and quick system for removing guards and riving knives. I'll say, though, that the stock guard that comes with the contractor and PCS is an absolutely piece of garbage, and when that's all I had I took off the guard and only used the riving knife. Then I upgraded to a Shark Guard, and then the SawStop dust collection guard (which is fabulous). Now I use the guard all the time. So convenience is not even enough...it needs to be convenient and work very well or people will simply leave them off their saw "for clarity" as well.

I don't believe for a minute that Norm's guard was off for the camera. I think it was off all the time because those old guards were pieces of junk, and a guy that works for a living doesn't have time to mess around with such things. He needs to crank out the projects and make money.

[Larry Edgerton]

I quit contributing to NPR when I realized I was financing my own demise.

I tried to make comment beyond this but it would be considered political, so I erased it.

Whats next? It is proven that motorcycles are less safe than cars, so perhaps we should out law that as well, you know, for the good of the people......

And ice cream, as good as it is is not really good for you. Obesity costs the general public far more than tablesaw injuries, and so I do believe that we should pass some regulations in regards to that!

Backup beepers on all cars should be good to my way of thinking, and while you are at it cars are just too darn fast. Let make it manditory that all cars top out at seventy five. That should be big plus for the greater good....

Heres a thought: If you don't want to ever take a chance of getting hurt, find a different hobby! Flower arrangement maybe?

Larry....

[Curt Harms]

I like the router for shorter dado cuts as well. I use a home-made jig where one side is aligned with one edge of the dado line and clamped. Put a piece of shelving or whatever against that clamped down half. Move the second half of the jig tight against the shelving and tighten the knobs to hold the halves of the jig together. Remove the shelf and route out the space between the jig halves using a top bearing pattern bearing. Perfect fit first time every time. The limitation is I can't do dados < 1/2" because I can't find a pattern bit < 1/2". I've seen similar jigs that use a router bushing-the woodwhisperer has one-but then you get into potential centering problems with bushing. As far as dust collection, the maligned PC 890 with grip vac handle works really well in this application because the base opening is covered, gets 90% + of the chips and dust.

[Greg Peterson]

I quit contributing to NPR when I realized I was financing my own demise.

Heres a thought: If you don't want to ever take a chance of getting hurt, find a different hobby! Flower arrangement maybe?

Larry....

There's always PRI. They produce some fantastic radio programming as well.

As for flower arrangement, what about those with allergies (pollen and bees)?

A few months ago I was sitting in the urgent care getting my thumb stitched up from a utility knife that went rogue for a split second. The doctor and I were having a nice conversation during the task. Unprompted he mentioned that I would be surprised at the number of 70 year olds that come in with a mangled hand from a table saw accident. He didn't go into much detail but he did say that those injuries are particularly nasty, lots of cut and torn flesh. Basically the affected area is hamburger. His words.

So I reciprocated and told him that I cut my thumb in the process of building my wood working shop so that when I'm 70 I can have a table saw accident. He grinned.

I think any discussion of tool safety is useful. It is easy to become task oriented and forget safety first.

Don't want to use a guard? Don't. Just don't ask me to pay for others negligence.