Frustrating Sharpening Session...Advise needed.

[Tony Shea]

I just received a couple new Japanese bench chisels from Hida tool. Some Imai chisels, which are have an awesome fit and finish and the backs have flattened up in no time.

My issue now is sharpening the bevels free hand. I am accustomed to sharpening most of my chisels free hand and occasionally run into the same issue from time to time but usually overcome it. I am getting some very annoying skipping or bouncing I guess you could say and just can't seem to stop it. Starting with my 1000 Shapton I just picked up all the way to the 8000 stone. Gets a tad better up in the higher grits but is not really ready for them as the skipping in the lower grits is throwing me off and not getting the job done. I gave it up and am going to try getting them done tomorrow. If all else fails I'll have to chuck in my honing guide it do it that way, which I don't want to do with Japanese chisels as I don't want any kind of micro-bevel. And matching up a bevel exactly is not easy for me.

What on earth am I doing wrong? Do others experience this same issue with their stones and free hand technique? Hopefully it is clear what I mean about skipping. Some sort of phenominon that I can't prevent. I've tried holding the blade sideways while sharpening and it doesn't seem to help.

[lowell holmes]

Norton has a video on this subject. They show using cross body strokes, moving laterally through the hips instead of back and forth with the arms.

I think Mike Dunbar's method is essentially the same as the Norton technique.

[David Weaver]

Side sharpen the chisel on the 1000 stone. That's a familiar term, right?

Shorter strokes will help with swarf plugging the stone if that becomes an issue - for a japanese chisel with an iron backing, it will lay down the black pretty fast on a 1k shapton. Little bit of water and shorter strokes will help push the swarf around if long strokes push the water off the stone and let it dry.

You'll get the touch with the stone and grow to like it, I would consider it a stone that's pretty easy to use and low stiction with japanese plane irons and chisels. I side sharpen on it exclusively and on the 5k stone, which allows you to get the bevel worked very fast and with the ability to bear down and not roll the edge.

With all of that, have your fingers close to the edge on the stone putting firm pressure on the edge, especially on the later stones when it's important to get the finest scratches all the way to the edge. Other fingers move the iron around and the fingers at the edge direct the pressure.

[David Weaver]

Oop...reading a second time, I see you say side sharpening didn't help ( presumably this is a chisel wide enough to side sharpen ).

Keep at it, you'll get the hang of it. Just make sure you keep the heavy pressure near the bevel as much as possible.

[David Weaver]

By the way, no worry about the microbeveling if you need to for a bit. Just don't make them steep - just a tiny bit steeper than the primary bevel and you should be good, and definitely don't be afraid to use the honing guide for the coarsest stones until you get the hang of things.

There's not still some lacquer on the bevel of those chisels is there? I usually knock the lacquer off with a diamond hone, but you're probably past that point already. It does make them a nuisance on the stones, though, because you don't get that real uniform "filing" feeling until it's all off.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...What on earth am I doing wrong? Do others experience this same issue with their stones and free hand technique? Hopefully it is clear what I mean about skipping. Some sort of phenominon that I can't prevent. I've tried holding the blade sideways while sharpening and it doesn't seem to help.

Sounds a lot like Shapton stiction to me. You're probably powering through it. Why not try the chisels on some sandpaper, just to verify it's the stone, not the chisel. That said, I doubt you need to go as low as 1000 grit for a brand new Imai/Fujihiro, might try a higher grit, like 5000. What other stones do you have besides Shaptons?

Pam

[Jim Neeley]

Tony,

To quote Derek Cohen's post on on this issue from Australia's Woodwork Forum...




Add a little liquid soap to the water you use to lubricate the Shaptons.
That will prevent stiction.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I forgot about derek's soap tip.

I'll mention something that a lot of people will probably find goofy, but the shapton stones do have a reputation for stiction, one that you can get past with technique pretty quickly even without soap, etc (I don't use soap or anything, though i did try it when derek mentioned it because I was moaning about stiction for something myself).

However, they have nothing to speak of for stiction on some of the really hard natural stones that I've used, which take so much skill to use that it's hard to imagine ever getting comfortable using them without a lot of concentration. One of the mid-size nakayama stones that I got from fujibato (ebay seller with all of the stones) is so hard that it takes a while to work up a slurry even with a diamond plate, and so fine that it's almost impractical to use.

When you get used to the shaptons, they will actually feel quite smooth to use, you'll just be using them differently than you might use a king or something of that sort.

[Jonas Baker]

can someone mention what side sharpening is, or should I just look it up in an old post as I'm sure it has been mentioned a bunch. I get a ton of stiction on my higher grit Norton, especialy the 8000 grit, and it's actually quite a bother. I do find that less water is helpful, but I also get a problem with the stone clogging, especially when polishing plane blade backs. Mind you, I'd love to use different stones, but for now they do the job, albeit slower.

Thank you,

Jonas

[David Weaver]

search
"side sharpening" in youtube

that should at least give you a video trailer that shows it. It's not going to help you on the blade backs because you're probably already doing it on the backs.

A little more water and shorter strokes working your way up the stone should keep you from having clogging problems when flattening backs. Keeping your finger pressure directed where you want it (as in closer to the edge, especially as the back is flattened and you are only polishing) will help make it so that you aren't putting pressure (and friction) on areas that don't need it.

[Tri Hoang]

I use soap with the Shaptons and it helps a little. As others mentioned, shorter strokes help. Try easing up the pressure and it may reduce rocking/skipping, too. I watched the side sharpening DVD and learned a few things from him. It's a worthwhile purchase.

[Tony Shea]

Thanks for the help. They did have some laquer on them but came off quickly. The side sharpening method does help some but takes a little getting used to. The bevels on these weren't perfectly flat so had to move over to some sandpaper real quick to flatten out the bevel. But it still was skipping a bit on the paper. The side sharpening method did work on the paper but somehow I ended up with an out of square edge on the wider 18mm chisel. I don't beleive this was caused by me though as I can't imagine that I took that much material off so quickly. I just ended up putting it in my honing guide, eclipse style, and re-established a fairly square and flat bevel.

My 3.5mm chisel is not able to use the side sharpening method without tipping but I was able to over come the skipping eventually. And I found the skipping to happen more with my Naniwa SS 1000 than my Shapton 1000. I sure have become fond of my Shapton compared to my Super Stone. Seems a bit more aggressive than the Super Stone too, which I do like. And it certainly stays flatter for much longer.

I have some how got the Japanese tool bug and just can't get enough of their tools. Very well designed and incredibly well made stuff. The only place I seem to not care much for their tools is in saws. I just can't get rid of my Western saws, they work too damn well. Thanks much for the help.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I agree that a bit of dish detergent in the water spray bottle helps, as does trying to keep the surface of the stone clean as the swarf does seem to make things worse.. Definitely the thing that helps the most is to use side sharpening technique, actually I find it much easier to sharpen freehand that way period no matter what the abrasive we are using to sharpen..

[James Owen]

Try getting the bevel set flat on the stone and then locking your wrists, elbows, and shoulders, and moving your entire upper torso (and arms) as a unit, by moving your belly button forward and backward 3 to 6 inches (depends on the length of your stone). Your legs need to be separated front to rear, as if you were ready to take a fairly long step. If you are right-handed, your right hand holds the handle of the chisel and your left hand the front end of the chisel, keeping the bevel flat on the stone. Right leg needs to be "back" and left leg "forward". Switch positions if you are left-handed.

I've found that this technique keeps the bevel flat on the stone, eliminates "skipping," and produces a very sharp freehand edge, with no dubbing, rolling, rounding, etc.