Which do you prefer? LN or Wenzloff Dovetail Saw? [Archive]

David Weaver

06-12-2011, 3:37 PM

I wish I'd ever have tried any of them to be able to give you an opinion, but I haven't, just rehabbed old saws and a few wenzloff kits.

Sight unseen, if I had to choose, I would go with a wenzloff dovetail saw if they have folded backs. A saw with a folded back just appeals to me more than does one with a slotted back. I see a lot of posts about people bunching up LN dovetail saws, and I haven't yet seen that with MW's saws.

But that's only a few anecdotal posts and a blog entry, and not like everyone who ever gets one is bunching up the saw.

They both use the same alloy of steel. If you don't mind the handle, flip a coin. I'm partial to the wenzloff saws, but there is something to be said for being able to go get an LN saw any time you want as a stock item.

Tony Shea

06-12-2011, 3:51 PM

Hey David,

What is meant by bunched up? And why would the folded back style not cause this? I have the LN DT, as well as their 16" tenon saw and absolutely love them both. Lots of people say that the LN DT saw is a tough saw to start due to the 0* rake angle. But after just a little bit of practise I never have issues starting a cut, becomes second nature.

I've actually been recently cutting dovetails in some Honduras Rosewood for a jewelry box and damn isnt that stuff hard. I had to stop mid way through and sharpen the saw for my first time. Was always affraid of the day I had to do this to my LN saws. But after watching some videos like Tom Lie Nielsen's and much advise from folks like David here I was able to build the courage. I was going to start a thread thanking everyone, especially David for the encouragemnet to do it myself. Was very easy to do and produced incredible results. What was I waiting for. Thanks David.

Joel Goodman

06-12-2011, 4:08 PM

I wouldn't worry about the durability of the LN slotted brass back -- the design been in production for quite a while, even before LN made the saws. I believe the Adria is also slotted. In any case LN really stands behind their products. The folded back is more traditional and some may find it more pleasing to the eye. The Gramercy saws that TWW sells are folded like Mike W's.

Zach England

06-12-2011, 4:59 PM

I did see many suggested the Adria saw in my research here. I have never handled one but does add to the difficult decision. I do like the looks of tha bubinga handles on the adria

I have both Adria and LN and much prefer the LN (thin plate). It cuts faster (a product of the thinner plate?) and smoother and the handle is more comfortable for me.

george wilson

06-12-2011, 5:37 PM

He means the LN blades slip,I'm pretty sure. We were talking about it the other day. I THINK I saw a picture somewhere not long ago of a folded back vs. slotted back. Might have been in Fine Woodworking now that I think of it. The slotted back was slotted only about 1/4" deep,it seemed. If I were to make a slotted back,I'd slot it as deep as a folded back so it would have the same area gripping as a folded back. I never did have a backsaw come back to me from the big bunch we made for the Historic Trades. They were all folded,though.

I could be wrong,but I think epoxy is relied upon to hold the blade in the slotted back. Apparently,it doesn't always hold well enough. I'd think Loctite would be a better choice.

Tony Zaffuto

06-12-2011, 6:23 PM

Some of Mike W.'s saws are folded (the ones sold at The Best Things, I think). I've never handled one of his DT saws, though I have 3 other ones he made.

I have 3 DT saws: Adria, a Freud I remade and a Gramercy. The Gramercy is my "go to" saw. It has a folded back and is a traditional style (whatever that is!).

David Weaver

06-12-2011, 6:39 PM

George is right, what I mean by that is that it sounds like the plate slips and gets bent or pushed back.

I don't know why it would be any different for a bent back saw, though, you're right, just haven't heard it on a bent back saw (but I have seen old saws that were abused or hammered on the toothline or something - presumably to fix a bend).

It may just be due to LN selling more saws so more people, especially newbies, to bust them.

Johnny Kleso

06-12-2011, 8:19 PM

I have never tried either but I remember when Mike made his first few saws and I have watched his business grow..
I think of Mike's saw more as hand made..

Archie England

06-12-2011, 8:29 PM

So the verdict's in::>>>>>Modern back saws, crafted by the genuine masters of today, are all good saws--with the biggest determining factor being fit, comfort, and preference--cause they're all sorta pricey!!!! I've got two good ones, a slew of rehabbed Disstons (Atkins, Simmonds, et al), yet still yearn for a LN, a Wenzloff. and a Bad Axe by Mark Harrell. Drats, this hobby is certainly getting expensive..., but oh what fun.

Cliff Ober

06-12-2011, 9:48 PM

There is not much of a difference in price but wondering for those who have purchased one or the other recently, which dovetail saw would you buy? I know its a matter of what I find fits me best but to be honest, they both felt good to me when I had a chance to take a few test cuts over the years. Just looking for others experience with each. Thanks!

I have both. They're both great saws with a great feel and terrific performance. Wenzloff has the edge for me though; they don't use that disgusting pink stain on their handles. ;^) ;^) ;^)

Matthew Hills

06-12-2011, 10:43 PM

I really, really like my Gramercy dovetail saw.

I've got some small crosscut LN's. They both work very well. I agree that I dislike the color that they currently finish to. (one of my crosscuts has an older, darker handle that is much more attractive)

I've got a Wenzloff tenon saw that I got through Lee-Valley. The saw is attractive, although among my hand saws, I've been least successful with this. I haven't tried other tenon saws to learn if it is the style of saw that I'm not used to or the specifics of this saw that give me trouble. I've also seen a number of threads with people waiting for backorders, although to all other accounts, Mike is a great guy who everyone wants to see succeed. If you're in a hurry for your saw, I'd confirm availability before ordering.

To all accounts, the Veritas dovetail saws are supposed to be very functional and a great value (if sacrificing something in the traditional aesthetics)

Matt

Pedder Petersen

06-13-2011, 1:33 AM

The slotted back was slotted only about 1/4" deep,it seemed. If I were to make a slotted back,I'd slot it as deep as a folded back so it would have the same area gripping as a folded back. I never did have a backsaw come back to me from the big bunch we made for the Historic Trades.

I could be wrong,but I think epoxy is relied upon to hold the blade in the slotted back. Apparently,it doesn't always hold well enough. I'd think Loctite would be a better choice.

Hi George,

Lie-Nielsen uses Locktite I think 270. They and Independent saws before make saws that way about 30 years. I yet have to hear about problems with the slotted back. But I've ssen a lot of saws where the bowed spine opens up.

The circular saw blades, that are used to cut the slot, can't cut as deep as you want. On folded spines I see, the blades are hold only by the lowest 3-5mm. So the slot will have more contact.

Cheers Pedder

Pedder Petersen

06-13-2011, 1:37 AM

I see a lot of posts about people bunching up LN dovetail saws, and I haven't yet seen that with MW's saws.

Hi David,

where did you see the posts? I follow the fora (SMC, woodnet, woodcentral and a few other) for 5 years now. And I don't remember one post. But that is my mind probably.:)

Cheers
Pedder

Chris Griggs

06-13-2011, 8:37 AM

I have the LN 15ppi rip carcass that I use as my dovetail saw. Two things to note.

1. I definitely love the extra length (11in). If you gang cut your tails (saw two tail boards at once), the extra length is quite nice

2. However, if I were to do it again I would get a saw with a folded back. The slotted backs are heavy and the folded back saws I've used seem better balanced especially if your like me and enjoy a longer dovetail saw.

But that's just me...

David Weaver

06-13-2011, 8:40 AM

There was just one here last week where someone mentioned they got one loose, but put it back. I had assumed it was the plate getting loose and pushing back in the spine. I could be wrong.

The one I recall most vividly was a schwartz blog article that came out around when the .015" plate became available (as well as the big .020 tenon saw), and the saw makers (and armchair pundits) were commenting on the fitness of a thin plate for general users. Chris mentioned that he had (or maybe that he occasionally has?) a ham handed user bunch one up at a seminar, and LN fixed it for him.

I don't think it would be an issue for a user with some experience or a light grip (and not most others, either) no matter what they were sawing in, and just so it's clear I'm not ripping on LN, I would probably order a plain 15 point .015" plate LN dovetail saw from LN these days if I were ordering a saw. it's cheap (in relative terms) and they have it to you right away and have as prompt of customer service as I have ever seen.

Also, as i mentioned, I think seeing these few stories and having them attached to LN might be just a matter of volume, probably likely even that it is.

(but i still like the folded spine, I will admit)

David Weaver

06-13-2011, 8:46 AM

I suspect that at some point in the near future, we're going to find out just how deeply a spine can be slotted!

Casey Gooding

06-13-2011, 8:51 AM

I owned an Adria prior to purchasing an original Independence Dovetail saw. I liked the Adria but preferred the longer length and slightly shorter height of the Independence. I also simply preferred the way it cut and felt. I sold the Adria pretty soon after and have not regretted it at all, though it is a fine saw.

Pedder Petersen

06-13-2011, 11:05 AM

Andrew Pitonyak

06-13-2011, 11:33 AM

still yearn for a LN, a Wenzloff. and a Bad Axe by Mark Harrell.

Love my LN and I have a Bad Axe on order. Paying for a bunch of pretty extras. I like pretty tools. I sometimes use them pretty hard, but I usually clean them up and store them well so they stay looking very nice. I have looked at the Wenzloff a few times. I keep thinking that I should try a kit.

David Weaver

06-13-2011, 12:07 PM

Hi David,

I remember the blog of Chris Schwarz quite well. It was a hymne on the well customer service of Lie-Nielsen. He mad it very clear, that the kinking was not a faugth of the saw but of the user. Rob Cosman has a good analogy of holding a dovetail saw like the hand of a baby.

I didn't found the other entry by now.

Cheers
Pedder

Pedder, maybe the person who said it here last week will come forward. I can't remember who it was.

I wasn't mentioning who was at fault (subjective), just that the saw was bunched up (objective).

Again, I'm not ripping on LN. I have more LN tools than any other type, and I would have one of their saws (i'm pretty confident that nothing I ever do with a dovetail saw would bunch any part of it up). Just made the comment that for reasons I may not understand (having built a few folded back saws and no slotted back saws) that I've seen discussion of this before.

Maybe it's due to the fact that thin plates are less common on the saws by makers who use folded backs?

george wilson

06-13-2011, 1:04 PM

I,too,have many LN tools. Between what I had at work,and what I have at home,I think I must have bought about 9 planes. Can't recall all the ones at work. Never bought their saw,though,as I have made plenty of my own. I personally haven't seen an LN bunch up. Just heard stories about them. When I got my old closed handle Groves back saw,it had a big wave in the blade from slipping. I jerked the wave out and the blade is now perfectly straight. It is an antique with a folded back. One of my very favorite saws,and certainly so from the beautiful handle on it.

I ran a little Loctite down the edge of the folded backs of my saws just for security,as all different skill level craftsmen would be using them,including some who use fairly wet wood. Never had one come back to the shop,except for sharpening. I had my own way of clenching the backs on them. I'd squeeze the backs down narrower than the blade thickness(made an accurate press to do that). Then,I made a bevel on the top side of the blades,so as to not shear the brass off as the blade was pressed in. This gave me a good,tight clench. The Loctite was extra insurance. I just ran the tip of the tube down the edge of the backs,and let it wick into the back. You could not see any Loctite on the blade or back.

I also squeezed both ends of my backs completely shut,then ground the backs on the belt grinder to give them the final finish. Some were then buffed. My personal ones were freehand ground with slightly tapering facets,and left with a fine ground finish.

Can LN clench their blades with a rather shallow slot that the blade goes into? Or,are they relying solely on the adhesive to hold the blade in?

Tony Shea

06-13-2011, 5:33 PM

Can LN clench their blades with a rather shallow slot that the blade goes into? Or,are they relying solely on the adhesive to hold the blade in?

That is a good question George. I'd be interested to know how they are held.

And David, understood that was not a rip on LN in any way, just was curious about what you meant. Even if they do have an issue such as you stated, their customer service will absolutely take care of this issue without any questions at all. I have had a couple deallings with their customer service and it's just top notch. I bought a used #5 locally for a very cheap price but was in real rough shape with an out of flat sole. Brought it to LN store personally and they completely rehauled it free of charge, including a freshly ground sole. I got the plane back in less than a week looking like it came off the shelf. The blade was the only telling factor that said it was the same plane. I've also had a block plane redone in the same fashion. Just an awesome company to deal with.

Frank Carnevale

06-14-2011, 5:29 PM

Great, now I see the Bad Axe dovetail saw and things are totally spiraling out of control. Now the question is do I become a tool snob and go with Bad Axe or go with the LN? I say tool snob because the bad axe is just a great looking saw also. ugh.Spend the extra 100 or no...hmmm

eric mah

06-14-2011, 5:54 PM

I purchased a LN dovetail and tenon saw off a guy who was downsizing. Kind of mentioned I may have to send it back for sharpening as he had no luck with them. Took it over to my buddies' place for a tryout session. We cut thru poplar and oak and neither of us had a problem. It seems that operator error was the issue.

Andrew Pitonyak

06-14-2011, 7:14 PM

I ordered a really really pretty saw!

Derek Cohen

06-15-2011, 7:48 AM

Let's see, I may be able to shed some like on some of the different dovetail saws.

I have a LN dovetail that is about 8 years old now. When I first got it, it was really difficult to start, and I did not master it. So it was put aside for some years. It was essentially replaced by a Independence Tools dovetail saw that I bought unused on eBay, the forerunner of the LN. It was promptly sharpened by Mike Wenzloff, so is to all intent and purposes a Wenzloff dovetail saw. Comparing these two saws (see my Website for the review) I loved the way the IT cut (smooth and controlled) but preferred the thicker handle of the LN. Skip forward some years. I returned to the LN. Deciding that the rough cutting was due to too much set, I filed off all the set. The saw starts easily enough for me (I've obviously learned something over the years :)), but now it cuts straight and with a fine, smooth kerf. It does need wax to prevent binding, but is a great saw to use. I like the thicker handle.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/LN%20vs%20Independence/Independence-LN.jpg

I have a Wenzloff dovetail, but it is a little harder to compare directly as it is a thinner plate (.18) and 20 ppi. It is a very smooth performer. It has the nicest handle of all my saws. The difference with the LN is that the Wenzloff has rounded edges, and just feels more comfortable.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Wenzloff%20tenon%20and%20dovetail/WSdovetailsaw.jpg

There is also an Eccentric Tools carcase saw. The handle was custom built for my hand (which is 10cm across the palm for those seeking a comparison). This is the best size and makes the others feel a touch pinched.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Eccentric%20Toolworks/EccentricToolssplitnuts1.jpg

All bar the Eccentric Tools are slotted.

The Wenzloff is 3/4" wide and slotted 5/16" deep.
The LN and IT are 3/4" wide and slotted 1/4" deep.
The Eccentric Tools is approximately 5/8" wide and the blade is impossible to see how deeply it is bedded.

Regards from Perth

Derek

David Weaver

06-15-2011, 8:29 AM

If any beginner on here (I know derek is not a beginner) ever gets a dovetail saw that's sharp but hard to start, get yourself a single small triangular file (you'll need it later when you learn to sharpen, anyway) and just put a bit of rake on the first inch and a half or two of teeth - maybe 10 degrees of rake. It'll not affect how fast the saw cuts speed-wise, and you'll be able to feel when the rake teeth catch, but you'll never have to set a saw aside (and a saw with no rake in the teeth in the middle of the plate really has a nice satisfying aggressive feel in the cut).

Mike does make a folded back dovetail saw, and a slotted back. His kits are now slotted backs, but you can get folded back parts (they are rough, though, but easily cheap enough that you can sand a finish on them and bevel them to make them look nice for the price).

I think mike's folded back saws at TBT are about $150, and the slotted saws are about $20 less at LV. Time no object (I don't know how mike is doing these days, I see he's back in business), assuming those are probably not in stock at TBT, that's what I would order for a "made" saw. Mike works awfully cheap, and a folded back saw is easy for a lunkhead like me to understand and adjust should something go slightly awry.

I would have to guess that lunn's plate is probably between 1/2 to 3/4ths of the way up that spine (derek, i'm sure you already know how they're usually put together, but other people might not). Not crazy about a porous common wood on a saw that expensive or that he didn't go to the trouble of trying to keep the facets on a saw where the handle was that square and flat sided, but that's just an opinion, and you know what they say about those. Likely it's better than anything I'll ever make for myself.

For the guys who know about slotted saws, are the slots cut with any tension on the plate (i.e., a tiny touch too small), or is the saw relying on adhesive? With an epoxy, I don't believe it makes a difference, but I am curious about this only because I guess I plan on continuing to try to make saws in the future for my own edification as a skill builder, even though right now I don't know if I enjoy doing it.

george wilson

06-15-2011, 8:35 PM

David,I hope you don't start making saws. I know you will charge too much for them. :)

David Weaver

06-15-2011, 10:18 PM

buy low, sell high! (I'm no threat to ever make any tools "for pay". Nobody would pay the cost of materials in them.)

Almost got an independence dovetail saw on ebay today, but didn't care enough to bid it past minimum bid and someone liked it a dollar more than the minimum. Proof that I'm not that biased against slotted saws!

Got some parts of the dovetail saw together tonight, got bevels on the bottom of the brass back, got it on the plate, cut the corner off the plate for the handle, got the handle roughed out, mortise for the back mostly cut (need to float it out to fit the spine snut) and slot cut for the plate. Thinking I might need to do the handle over because I didn't quite cut the blank big enough for a 10" plate with 2 1/2 inches below the spine, but we'll see how it turns out first. I shouldn't be wasting good wood!

If there's ever a wilson dovetail saw for $19.95, i might be interested. That's in my price range.

george wilson

06-15-2011, 11:38 PM

Well,you say it takes you about 5 hours to make a handle. Then,how much longer to do everything else? With all those hours invested,how much do you think you would have to charge for a back saw? Since I'm twice your age,it would probably take me twice as long..........

David Weaver

06-16-2011, 7:41 AM

These open handles are a lot faster, I think I could do one in three with a beeswax/oil burnished finish on the apple. Couldn't sell them like that, but that's how they feel the best as long as you don't leave excess beeswax on the surface. Maybe a little ugly with porous wood, but no pores on the apple.

Take you half the time!

So, here's my projection:
$10 for the piece of 1095
$10 for the wood (have to use nice wood -- *have* to - no sense in making a super fine saw and using a common american hardwood)
$15 for the brass for the back and two split nuts
$10 for consumables
$0 for your labor, call it charity work!!

$55 - I think maybe I could even afford a wilson backsaw at that price!

george wilson

06-16-2011, 9:10 AM

I KNOW you have paid a LOT more than that for some of your stuff!!!!!:) I do a fair amount of charity work,but let's NOT get carried away!!!:)

David Weaver

06-16-2011, 9:41 AM

Well, I suppose since it's already out of my price range, the bar has been set somewhere around $500 for a dovetail saw made by hand with a couple of little extra tricks on it.

I settled with the reality that for really nice tools, there are a lot of people willing to pay prices I wouldn't, so they'll always be out of my range. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to *make* really nice tools, so the quest to learn to continues.