Backsaws rehab project

[Zahid Naqvi]

So I got a few backsaws from one of the creekers (Jim Matthews) as a rehab project and I get to keep some as compensation :D
I have done rehabs and sharpening on some old saws before and have gotten the hang of the process. The two aspects I have not messed with yet are straightening a saw plate and removing/reinserting a spline, if needed. I figured this would be a good thread to start on the creek, I can ask for advice at needed and post my results and progress as it goes along. Without further ado here are the pictures.
197764 197763

The vital stats based on my initial inspection


Foot print:
* TPI=12
* Spline=Brass
* Handle= needs to be replaced, just look at the picture
* Saw plate= straight, not rust, needs sharpening, set is good but slightly loose for my taste, very minimal to no jointing needed
* Hardware=good shape, just minor cleanup needed

Diston:
* TPI=12
* Spline=steel
* Handle= Good, just needs some cleanup and new finish.
* Saw plate= waves, light stains, needs sharpening, set is good, needs minimal jointing
* Hardware=good shape, needs a good cleanup.

Diston:
* TPI=12-1/2
* Spline=Brass, has several major dents from a ball pein hammer, it is also showing gaps (between spline and saw plate) at a few locations.
* Handle= Good, just needs some cleanup and new finish.
* Saw plate= straight, light stains, needs sharpening, too much set, has a very pronounced dip through the middle not sure if it by design or just an accumulations of bad sharpening over the years
* Hardware=good shape, just minor cleanup needed

Spear and Jackson:
* TPI=12
* Spline=Brass
* Handle= needs to be replaced, looks a little goofy plus very boxy in feel
* Saw plate= straight, light stains, needs sharpening, set is just about perfect to what I like (i.e. very minimal), jointing needed
* Hardware=good shape, just minor cleanup needed


I have no idea what the model numbers of each are as there is no etch on the saw plate of any. The Diston with the brass spline is going to be most problematic. The spline has been subjected to some abuse and I am not sure whether to try and take the saw plate out of it or keep it as is. Besides that it has a pretty significant concave curve going through the middle which will require some serious jointing of the teeth. The saw plate is straight so I don't suspect it is due to the plate sliding out of the spline.

Anyway hopefully tomorrow I will have time to open up the saw handles and cleanup the saw plates and may be get a better idea of what I am looking at. Plus I need to find some wood for the handles all I have it Walnut and Maple, a trip to a local lumber yard perhaps.

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Zahid,

some very nice saws. I like the big Disston the most. What is the problem with the spine? Taking the plate off and replacing it is not a big deal (You can get some toothed saw plate from smc member Dominique Greco), but the brass spines from Disston don't love that. It may be it has opened itself and the former owner hat "closed" the spine with the hammer? I would try some Locktite 270 instead.

If your looking for templates, Ray Gardiners backsaw.net has a wonderful gallery of old saw handles scanned with a scale.

Cheers
Pedder

[Trevor Walsh]

I also like Gramercy's carcass and sash saw totes, you can find the templates in the instructions on their respective kit pages.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Hi Zahid,
I like the big Disston the most. What is the problem with the spine? Taking the plate off and replacing it is not a big deal (You can get some toothed saw plate from smc member Dominique Greco), but the brass spines from Disston don't love that. It may be it has opened itself and the former owner hat "closed" the spine with the hammer? I would try some Locktite 270 instead.


I really don't want to take off the spine, I don't have a camera to take good closeup pictures, hopefully the following shows what I am talking about. If you look at the first picture you can probably see the several hammer marks. These marks have deformed the spine so that it doesn't make a constant contact with the blade, you can see some of that in the second picture which shows several gaps between the spine and the blade. It seems the blade is being held in place at a few contact points. The second problem, the one I am concerned about more, is the slight dip in the middle of the saw plate. I don't know if you can catch that in the third picture, but the teeth in the middle are lower than the teeth at both ends. I don't think this could be by design, I suspect years of sharpening without jointing resulted in this. If I joint the teeth the ones at the two ends will have some significant flats on the top. But it has to be done to get a straight line.
197789 197790 197791

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Zahid,

wow, that are some heavy marks. Is the blade straight? I see the bow, but that won't hurt, but if there is any left right curve, I would leave that saw for a generous saw doctor. If you fill the wholes with locktite it will help with shattering.

Cheers
Pedder

[Zahid Naqvi]

Pedder, I opened the handle to start the cleanup process. The brass backed Diston was definitely clamped pretty tight, and the blade as well as the spine are very straight with no lateral (side ways) twist. For now I am going to leave it as is and not go the loctite route, let's see how it fares after sharpening.
Discovered another quirk in the blade geometry. Turns out the blade itself is of uniform width/height, the way it is clamped in the spine is what creates the angled saw plate. Due to the location of the screw holes the plate has to be in this exact position for the handle to fit and the holes to align, i.e. if I slide it up the spine the handle will not fit. I am not sure if the plate is a late addition by a previous owner (there is no etch on the plate) or this is how Diston made them. I remember seeing a blog article by Chris Schwarz about the benefits of having an inclines saw blade. Anyway here are some close up pictures of what I am talking about. The first one is the brass backed Diston the second is the steel backed. both looking at the heel end of the saw, the saw plate at the toe end goes all the way to the top of the spine.
197819 197820

Did some cleanup as well using "bar keeper's friend" as recommended by a creeker. The saws were in pretty clean state as after a vigorous rub down with 3M pads and a generous sprinkling of bar keepers friend the saws only improved slightly. I think the few black stains still remaining are there to stay. Here's the before and after

197822
I put some 3 in 1 oil on the plates to prevent any rust since BKF presumably has some acidic properties and these blades will be sitting in the shop for several days waiting on handles to be made.
197823

[Zahid Naqvi]

so is there any weight or structural consideration on open saw handles. The Diston steel back and the foot print can potentially be attached to an open handle but the spines on both are rather heavy and I am wondering if an open handle will be too much of a breakage risk. It'd look "purdy" though

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi Zahid,

one of the last handles before I met Klaus, I made open on a 14" saw with a very heavy spine. I liked it.

Cheers Pedder

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z4ZtNOMO56s/SPtWUgutXvI/AAAAAAAAAik/coCuqC4_w8c/s1600/carcase%2Bsaw%2Bspear%2Band%2Bjackson%2B1.jpg

[Zahid Naqvi]

thanks, I like the open handles for smaller tenon and dovetail type saws as well. Maybe I'll give that a shot.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I had bought this 2 maybe 3 yrs ago from woodcraft out of their discounted bin. This was labeled as a Cocobolo turning blank, 6"x6"x2", my initial thought was handle and totes for planes. Had almost forgot about it but found it last night lurking in the corner alongside a pile of sandpaper. I have never worked with cocobolo before and I can see with all the reversing grain that this will be splintery and a challenge to smooth, but is full of possibilities. So anything I should be aware of before I start working this lumber. I presume this will be a good choice for a saw handle due to its density.

Before resawing
198186

and after resawing through the middle.
198187

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Before resawing
198186

and after resawing through the middle.
198187

Very nice figure for sure. To my eye it doesn't look like Cocobolo since I'm missing the orange colours Cocobolo shows when being freshly resawed. But I may be wrong on that. In any case it's a beautiful figured wood.

If it is Cocobolo, I recommend strongly to work with breath protection. The wood causes very strong allergic reactions while working with it. Once the work is done and the workpiece is finished, there will be no more allergic reaction.

Klaus

[Pat Zabrocki]

Looks a lot like Bacote to me, which I think is every bit as cool looking as the Cocobolo
cheers
Pat

[george wilson]

Be very sure to protect yourself against breathing the wood dust. I heard about a turner going blind for 2 weeks after turning coco bolo. All those dense tropical woods are bad for you,and boxwood is carcinogenic. As I have gotten older,I have gotten MUCH more careful about having decent dust extraction.

[Zahid Naqvi]

the resawn blank certainly didn't look like Cocobolo, which I have only seen in pictures. I flattened it out last night and surprisingly it planed quiet nicely, certainly nothing like purple heart or other fibrous tropicals. I could certainly feel the high oily nature of the wood though, very different from anything local I have worked with before. Now if only I can figure out how to draw a pattern on this thing.

[David Weaver]

Hard to tell what it might be without smelling it.

Ziricote also has a light sapwood like that and is brown, but I don't know if the figure on it is that tight.

When you buy something in the US sold as cocobolo and it is a reddish board like klaus describes, you never know what you're going to get. Under wax, it can be really hard to tell.

But from my experience, everything that I've gotten that was called cocobolo but wasn't really cocobolo, I've liked it in the end better than I would've if it *were* cocobolo.

Hopefully it'll work nicely and not make you sneeze or itch, if it does, enjoy it. Saw handles and plane parts are a treat to work with good wood because they're small and you don't have to feel guilty about spending time on detail.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Short of doing serious research on the wood and its origin just assume it is cocobolo. I agree with everyone about respiratory protection. I'd also wear long sleeves since I've had dust get on my foreams while turning it and cause an irritation. I have seen cocobolo in the orange mixed with reddish brown, the color of your piece, and lots of other variations. The tree grows in a wide variety of climates and soils all the way from Mexico to central South American and can come in a wide variety of colors often including purples and deep reds along with the browns and oranges. I've also had it run from brittle and prone to tear out to stuff that handles nicely with a plane. YMMV

[Andrew Gibson]

Definitely some very nice wood. I would say that it could easily be some very fancy cocobolo. The grain looks right to me. The color is mild for sure for fresh resawn cocobolo that I have come across.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

the resawn blank certainly didn't look like Cocobolo, which I have only seen in pictures. I flattened it out last night and surprisingly it planed quiet nicely, certainly nothing like purple heart or other fibrous tropicals. I could certainly feel the high oily nature of the wood though, very different from anything local I have worked with before. Now if only I can figure out how to draw a pattern on this thing.

I've got a well sharpened white colored pencil for marking on dark woods. Works well on rosewood. I usually keep a piece of sandpaper or a knife nearby to keep the point sharp, though. I also have a "half pencil" (http://www.frets.com/fretspages/Luthier/Tools/HalfPencil/halfpencil.html) of the same white, for some marking jobs. (although right now, it's rounded a bit so I could trace a handle a bit better)

[Zahid Naqvi]

I was able to cut the handles this weekend, no shaping in the plans until I get the slot for the saw plates and the spine in place. So while I wait for my Japanese files to arrive from LV, I figured I'd clean up the two handles in this set which are still usable. I was watching Frank Kalus' DVD lst night about finishing and noticed he only used Tung oil on an antique dresser he was using as an example, he used about 6 coats and allowed each coat to cure for 24 hours before applying the next one. So is that acceptable for a saw handle, such as 3-4 coats of TO followed by a few coats of shellac, or is Shellac redundant if TO is used.

[Zahid Naqvi]

The Japanese files arrived last night. They certainly have an aggressive cut, but wow the wood is remarkably smooth for a tool that cuts so fast. I think this will need a little getting used to, I can already see how by modifying the downward pressure one can control the "bite". On the down side I did not read the description on the LV quiet attentively, they clearly state "they are available in double-sided flat and single-sided half-round patterns" I figured if I buy a half round I will also get a flat side, like you do on a half round rasp. These are in fact u shaped see pictures below, slightly out of focus but you will get the point. As you can see the inner/back side is smooth.

199941 199942 199943

Also sharpened saw #3 from the original list. The handle on this saw was in pretty good shape and after sanding and applying BLO on saw #2 I noticed it didn't look much different visually from what it was before cleanup, so I left this one alone. I filed it in a rip configuration, with a 4 degree fleam angle. Took a bit of time since the saw had a slight curve down the length (middle teeth were lower than the ends). By the time I was done jointing, the teeth at the toe end were almost gone, even then I was not able to eliminate all the curve, but I think functionally it will have no impact. I did a little test. Before sharpening 15 strokes could make a 1/2" deep cut after sharpening the same number of strokes resulted in a 2" deep cut. Tracks pretty straight, but the cut surface is not very smooth, I can still feel ridges. I am going to try and reduce the set as well. Now on to shaping the handles for the others.

[Zahid Naqvi]

was able to get some free time this weekend and made some progress. Finished shaping of one handle and have cut the outline and slots on the second one. In the picture below the wood has a light coat of mineral spirits applied to show the finished look. After some deliberation I am sticking with the tried and tested witches brew. Some quarters think shellac does not provide enough protection, while lacquer is something I prefer not to apply straight (old timer got to have some oil type penetrating substance). Made a little boo boo while cutting the slot for the back :mad: the slot turned out not to be very straight. So had to re-do the thing and insert a small shim to hide the off center cut, which is still visible on close inspection. But I'm a user not a displayer so as long as the grip is comfortable and lines up correctly all cosmetic enhancements are a bonus.

Also got to play with the curved tooth mill files. From someone who has previously used commodity (non cabinet makers) rasps as well as microplanes these things are the cats meow. Klaus/Peder recommended them in an earlier post so I got a couple from LV and one from eBay. Probably the best investment in rasps I ever made.

Since I decided to use open handles on the saw that originally came with closed grip the bolt holes did not align quiet right. I could only get one (the lower one) to stay within the handle. I had to drill the second one. What an exercise. I only have a HF drill and no specific bits for working in metal. The location of the hole required dirlling through the brass back, which wasn't that much of a problem. But the saw plate was a different story. The HF drill only goes so slow so I had to spend considerable time slowly drilling through the plate. It took some time but it got done. I had to drill the hole in 4 progressive holes of increasing dia. The final cleanup was done by a dremmel to remove any burrs or unevenness in the saw plate that got hidden under the brass back.

All in all a good learning experience. The second handle is going to come out much better. Although the first one, ergonomically speaking, is also perfectly functional. FYI the pattern is from the Gramercy open grip handle.

201863

[Zahid Naqvi]

just about done. The lone three corner file has gotten dull and the new ones ordered from TFWW are not here yet, so I finished up the handles. Probably not the most esthetically pleasing, but I was more inclined toward functionality rather than cosmetics as they are for personal use (well that's my excuse and I am sticking to it until I come up with a better one). The complete saw is the Spear and Jackson from the original list, as you saw its original handle was a closed grip one with three screws. The open handle only requires two, hence the visible "hang hole". The finish is shellac followed by Deft clear wood finish (Lacquer). I gave it a good rub down with pumice (via a leather patch loaded with the pumice powder). The resulting finish is more to my liking than the straight lacquer.
203524

the second saw handle is finished but waiting on files to arrive before it goes on to it's intended recipient, the footprint from the original list.
203525

The handles on the two Diston saws were in decent shape so they stayed, just got a good cleanup and a new coat of finish.

[David Keller NC]

Very nice work, Zahid, especially for a first attempt. You're to be commended for jumping in the deep end of the pool - most of us wouldn't think of choosing such a hard, unforgiving wood to hand-shape into our first tote.

BTW - if you ordered your shellac from TFWW and mixed it up from flakes with good quality 100% denatured alcohol, the laquer coat is unnecessary, and potentially troublesome when it comes time to re-finish (as it always will - no finish is 100% durable, even conversion varnish). As an example, consider Konrad Sauer's infill planes - they are all finished with french polish (shellac). And planes generally get more get considerably more use in a cabinetmaker's shop than saws.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I actually was inclining towards shellac, but the one I had had been sitting in the can for a couple years so I wasn't sure how well it would hold up if I built up multiple coats, and I didn't have any in flakes. I just did a couple thin coats to get the lacquer to stick. TFWW was out of blonde de-waxed when I ordered, but I have a woodcraft in town so I figured one of these days I will get a coupon or something and will venture that way to get me a pound or so of flakes.
I don't know if I will do another handle in a wood like this, it just takes too much time to refine the curves into an ergonomic shape. It's not like I am selling any tools so I don't see the value in making hand tools visually appealing at the cost of time. I'd rather spend that time on something I can keep inside the house.