Live Cartridge Engraving

[Neil Pabia]

I have been requested to laser etch some live cartridges for a local law enforcement agency, I told them no. I was wondering if this is even possible and would it be as foolish to try as it sounds. I have an extensive backround with ammunition and the thought of attempting to hit anything explosive with a laser seems like a bad idea to me. I'm not really willing to risk my laser on a test like this. But if I am wrong on this one, please let me know.

I did offer to etch the cartridges before they are loaded and even offered to do the reloading for them.

[Leo Graywacz]

Try it on some spent cartridges and see how hot it really gets.

It does sound foolish though, doesn't it.

[Neil Pabia]

I do a lot of empty new brass, but never tried a loaded cartridge.

[Bruce Clumpner]

Why not engrave an empty cartridge and re-load?

[Scott T Smith]

Why not use a bullet puller to unload it first, and then reassemble when complete?

[Bill Cunningham]

If a cartridge does go off, it will be like a firecraker in your machine, and a popping out bullet won't damage anything unless it's a freak hit to a mirror or something. An unchambered 30.06 cartridge and fired by whacking it on the primer, the bullet itself, can be contained in a cardboard box. Don't believe what you see in the movies. Bullets do not go whizzing around when cartridges go off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNhw5SCQNpc

[ray hampton]

the police dept, could get in trouble if you go ahead and engrave live round, I pick a misfire 22 round up and was filing on it close to the rim and the powder ignited, how much heat will a laser generation on brass ?

[Bill Cunningham]

the police dept, could get in trouble if you go ahead and engrave live round, I pick a misfire 22 round up and was filing on it close to the rim and the powder ignited, how much heat will a laser generation on brass ?
That would be a ignition of the primer compound in the rim. It's far more sensitive than powder. Police cartridges would be centerfire, and the heat would not be on the primer.. All the same, I would also much rather etch the empty brass. I don't want anything popping off in my cabinet, dangerous or not!

[Greg Bednar]

Neil, - I cannot believe that a Law Enforcement agency would want live ammunition etched!! As a retired police Lieutenant, I would NEVER - read that NEVER EVER have duty ammunition in any way deviating from standard issue without some special dispensation from the ammunition manufacturer. And even then I would walk, no RUN away. The reason; COURTS and LAWYERS! And if that ammunition is ever used in an officer involved shooting, you, whether you like it or not, are complicit in the event. Not to mention, although I will, you compromise the integrity of the casing. If anything, ANYTHING happens to even one of those rounds, you're going to hear about it in a not so nice way! RUN - FLEE - IT'S OVER - THE FAT LADY'S SINGING - TAKE THE DEPARTMENT OFF YOUR CHRISTMAS CARD LIST!!

And let me know who the firearms instructor is so I may personally recommend to his departmental therapist that he get his head examined. ( incidentally, I am a Permanently Certified Firearms Instructor through the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy, so I know of what I speak - Lots of years in Law Enforcement, years of knowledge in the area. )

Dumb dumb dumb dumb idea on the departments part - I'm passionate about this Neil. There are more issues than safety here. LIVE AMMUNITION?! My mother used to say, " I don't like the way this food smells, and I'm not going to eat it." I hope you don't either. - PM me if you want, or give me a all on the phone - I'll give you my number in the PM - but for a police department to even think about etching live ammunition is 24 Karat stupid!

My apologies for my passion on this matter - I love Law Enforcement and engravers too much to not speak my mind.

[Jason Roehl]

If a cartridge does go off, it will be like a firecraker in your machine, and a popping out bullet won't damage anything unless it's a freak hit to a mirror or something. An unchambered 30.06 cartridge and fired by whacking it on the primer, the bullet itself, can be contained in a cardboard box. Don't believe what you see in the movies. Bullets do not go whizzing around when cartridges go off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNhw5SCQNpc

The BULLET probably won't move much--the casing would move farther and faster than the bullet when an unchambered round goes off (a hammer would prevent the casing from moving, but heat setting off a round causes the casing to be the major projectile).

I once emptied a 12-gauge shotgun shell (no powder, wad or shot left--totally empty), then hit the primer (still in the shell) with a torch. It was every bit as loud as my .45 ACP, and the shell went flying.

[Kim Vellore]

I am no expert on ammunition but looking a a bullet it is propelled by expanding gases so when a bullet goes off on the outside the same amount of energy is expelled as firing it from a gun but nothing to focus it on pushing the bullet and the gas can expand in all directions, now if the bullet is a brass casing there is a possibility that one side could move at high enough velocity to cause some damage to your machine. As every one says why take a chance... one could also come up with a theory the engraving caused uneven air flow around the bullet which then caused to reach an unintended target.

Kim

[Frank Corker]

I'm not an expert in ammunition or firearms. I am pretty confident on a wide range of stupidity. This is very high up on the stupidity radar. Engrave it and you are an idiot.

[Tristan Ranatza]

I agree with Greg on this… my wife worked for lawyers for years and people have gotten sued for much MUCH less than this.
On the other hand if they just want to take and put it in a glass display box, you know the ones I am talking about, the ones with the fancy gun and ammo that they give to high ranking officers when they retire all sunk in a shadow box of blue or red velvet, you might be ok. You may not even need to have live rounds! You could just go to your local gun store and ask if you can get some 9mm ball ammo reloaded with no powder. I don’t think I would engrave a live round, even though the chance of it going off is slim the odds are still too high in my eyes. Like someone above said engrave spent and polished brass and then have someone reload it.

[Neil Pabia]

As I posted originally, I did say "NO" to the request. This seemed like a poor idea to me. While I am still new to the world of lasers, I am not new to ammunition and the results of a cartridge fired outside of a breach has shown me that there is a chance of the brass fragmenting and shrapnel flying. I was not sure if the laser could do this but did not want to be the one to experiment with this.
I do a lot of reloading and did offer to do the reloading for them but they were pretty much set on it being done with their ammo, so they can find someone else to take the risk.

Frank, please don't hold back, say what you really feel. It makes me feel safer. Thank you.....LOL

[Frank Corker]

Neil, Mike, apologies for being to forthright in my answer, not intended to be aggressive just doing my best to prevent a disaster for yourself. If it had done it (which I'm genuinely glad you have not) and the bullet had killed you or a member of your household I would never have forgiven myself for not having said something.

[Mike Null]

Frank

No apology necessary. Your point was right on target.

[David Fairfield]

I once deactivated some WW2 signal flare cartridges in my kitchen, with a pair of pliers a screwdriver and no prior experience. Its on my list of top ten incredibly stupid things I've done. There are stupider ones, but thankfully I'm still above ground with all limbs and digits. When I think about that now, I get sweaty palms and chills down my spine.

Somehow it often happens that dumb things don't seem dumb till after they are done, we all have moments. So its good to have a friend like Frank around to call you an idiot at the appropriate time. :)

Dave

[ray hampton]

what is the different between a solid-fuel rocket and a 30-06 brass full of powder that caught on fire ?
the 22 round that I fire in my hand dump the powder and bullet in my hand but the shell travel to the crack between the wall and floor, I wonder how much force a 30-06 cartridge would deliver at a distance of one foot if it were to hit a section of 1/4 inch thick lap board ,,for your safety enclose the shell in a section of pipe to guide it straight

[Neil Pabia]

Frank, I actually liked your answer, no apologies needed.

[Randy Digby]

Down here in the South, we have a "Last Words" saying that ends up being engraved on a few tombstones - "Hey ya'll, watch this!"

[Chuck Stone]

We have that up north, too.. but it is usually followed by
"here.. hold my beer..."

[Douglas J Miller]

Actually, Randy, I heard it was more like 'Here, hold my beer and watch this'. :)

[Neil Pabia]

We have that up north, too.. but it is usually followed by
"here.. hold my beer..."

That's the really stupid ones Chuck, most of the smarter ones would never hand off a beer......

[Chuck Stone]

Bah .. it's just a chaser .. and you need at least one hand to drive..

[Dan Hintz]

Bah .. it's just a chaser .. and you need at least one hand to drive..
Isn't the other holding a Marlboro?

[Chuck Stone]

No need. That's why they have two teeth.

[George D Gabert]

Not knowing much about the casing material itself. but the laser etching puts heat into the material, this heat may change the molecular properties if the casing and therefore the structural properties. It may also chang the dimensional properties enough to cause a fitment problem.

GDG

[Dan Hintz]

Not knowing much about the casing material itself. but the laser etching puts heat into the material, this heat may change the molecular properties if the casing and therefore the structural properties. It may also chang the dimensional properties enough to cause a fitment problem.
It's brass, so heat is basically going to expand it for a short time... it's not intense enough to change the molecular properties. There's more slop in the area of the chamber than would be taken up by a film of Cermark.

[Neil Pabia]

I spent a little while at the range today and tested some of the marked casings. The light load .38 were fine, the heavy loads .38 were fine, the overpacked .357 mags were fine, and the very heavily overpacked .44 mags were fine. I also tested some 10mm rounds that were loaded to factory specs and they worked fine as well. I'm not saying that the cases are unaffected by etching them with Cermark, I'm just saying there was no problem firing them. All the cartridges I fired were etched (empty new brass) and then loaded in my shop.

Almost forgot, I did get an order for 250 etched casings from the range owner while there.

[Dan Hintz]

Neil,

How much are you charging? By the caseload or per piece? :p

[Mark Ross]

In theory!?!? you could engrave live ammo with no problem as long as your laser was in an inert atmosphere of something like nitrogen.

[Neil Pabia]

Neil,

How much are you charging? By the caseload or per piece? :p

Hoping for a bigger order, I gave him a price of $1.00 a piece. It is just a name and same on every one. Took less than an hour to get 150 done already, I'll do the rest tomorrow.

[Rich Harman]

In theory!?!? you could engrave live ammo with no problem as long as your laser was in an inert atmosphere of something like nitrogen.

A cartridge contains both the fuel and oxidizer so an inert atmosphere would not prevent a discharge.

[Gary and Jessica Houghton]

Neil,

I have thought of etching a loaded piece of ammo. I wanted to try this for a completely different reason. After the thought hit me and I realized how silly this idea would be (the $$$$$ of damage I could expect), I thought of a different way to do what I wanted.

A big problem with etching and then reloading might be the scratching/rubbing of the mark you put on the ammo. I have a piece of ammo that is a dummy and am going to try to tempt this. I have had it for a while and have done nothing because I am still apprehensive of any residual powder that might still remain.

I agree with Greg in his assessment of a law enforcement agency that would want this done. It is not worth any headache with any lawyers.

Jessica

[Dan Hintz]

Took less than an hour to get 150 done already, I'll do the rest tomorrow.
Wow, you must be really fast at loading/unloading the rotary ;) :p

[Cindy Collins]

Hi Neil,

I also have a law enforcement background (nice response Lt. Greg!) and was just wondering.......what did they want you to engrave on the cartridges?

(By the way, LOVE the Reagan quote!)

[Neil Pabia]

Wow, you must be really fast at loading/unloading the rotary ;) :p


I was supposed to use a rotary?

[Neil Pabia]

Hi Neil,

I also have a law enforcement background (nice response Lt. Greg!) and was just wondering.......what did they want you to engrave on the cartridges?

After what the LT. said, I think posting that may be a bad idea. It could possibly identify the group and I don't want to do that.


(By the way, LOVE the Reagan quote!)

Thank you. My entire career in the Corps was due to his influence.

[ray hampton]

OH , BOY all of this talk about engraving cartridges and NOBODY mention that the cartridges are already engrave on the head with the caliber # and company name

[Dan Hintz]

OH , BOY all of this talk about engraving cartridges and NOBODY mention that the cartridges are already engrave on the head with the caliber # and company name
Stamped, I believe, and long before explosive materials gets near them...

[ray hampton]

the point were that the shell head are thick enough to take the stamping while the shell wall will fail after repeat firing

[Dan Hintz]

the point were that the shell head are thick enough to take the stamping while the shell wall will fail after repeat firing
The wall fails because you are stretching/compressing it during reloads, whereas the head doesn't see any of that... brass doesn't handle repeated flexure very well.