Help with tool grinding strategy

[ian maybury]

Hi all. I've used a Tormek and a collection of diamond 'stones' to sharpen everyday quality planes and chisels until recently, but having invested in some Veritas bevel up planes and a nice set of Japanese chisels the plan is to head for the best reasonably available standard. The need to grind lathe tools may move on to the agenda at some point in the future too.

The Tormek (a) doesn't really remove material fast enough for my taste, and (b) the Japanese chisels are i gather better not hollow ground. (it weakens the edge)

I bought a Worksharp 3000 a while ago in the hope of using it to both coarse grind and finish flat bevels, but haven't tried it yet as I've been busy on shop set up.

The issue is that the dust system and other installation jobs I'm in the middle of are throwing up the requirement to handle all sorts of everyday workshop grinding jobs (cleaning up cut bolt ends and the like), and I'm not sure what to buy.

This because if the Worksharp proves not to be a 100% solution for bevel grinding I should probably buy a decent quality Creuset or similar low speed tool grinder capable of taking a wide low heat producing (ruby?) wheel plus the right tool rests etc.

On the other hand if the WS does the business I guess a pretty basic workshop grinder would do the job.

So a range of grinding jobs:

Miscellaneous workshop tasks.
Chisel and plane bevel grinding.
Scrapers.
Possible lathe tools (future)

What are your thoughts on equipment selection and strategies to cover these bases given what I already have and with cost effectiveness in mind?

:) Thanks

ian

PS I haven't really thought too hard about honing just yet, but have some waterstones to try with a Veritas honing guide in due course as well as the Work Sharp. (with the angle setting gizmo) There's some nifty looking ceramic based stuff I think coming on the market now too....

[Chris Fournier]

Well scrapers only require a mill file for the primary shaping process so there you go. You need a mill file.

I am gonna take some heat for this but I'll tell you what I tell others when it comes to sharpening woodworking tools and grinding other tools etc. Get a good quality bench grinder with good quality wheels, I use 46 grit and 60 grit on my 7" bench grinder. You can sharpen just about anything with this machine and a decent tool rest. I use the Veritas tool rest because I am too lazy to make my dream rest. Oh yeah, a plant mister and cup with some water is useful too. Right I forgot, a single point diamond dresser with a shop built holder and a star wheel dresser if you like. This is a very cost effective set up compared to the other options out there.

I don't use guides for any of my sharpening, free hand is it. Of course it may take some time to get to this point but it's well worth it. Honestly the fancy holding and micro whatever tools will really just hold you back from developing the freehand touch. If you have a bevel gauge an a protractor, that is all the angle gizmos you need - period. Need a dedicated one to set up your rest? Use your tablesaw to make one. Buy a nice chisel with the money you've saved!

I think that so many of the sharpening machines and contraptions that are marketed today are really the product of consumer impatience and frustration with dry grinding. They are frustrated because they either didn't take the time or simply couldn't get the proper touch. Proper wheel preparation and a light consistent touch yield fast repeatable results that don't need much honing.

I sharpen all of my lathe tools freehand on the bench grinder and have never wanted a more refined or effective cutting edge.

Get a bench grinder with the proper wheels, learn to use it properly and you can sell all the other motorized sharpening contraptions that you may have in your shop.

Take a bit of time and research on the home machinist forums how they sharpen their tooling and check out some of the fixtures that can be made to do some very neat and somewhat complex grinding. It will help you get the most from the bench grinder.

[Curt Putnam]

My needs are similar to yours and my solutions evolve as my skills grow. For chisels and plane irons, the answer to is to always keep them sharp so that major grinding is seldom required. I'm experimenting now with the leather strop in the WS 3000. Power stropping is an amazingly quick way to achieve a superior edge. A few seconds on the strop, charged with LV green stuff, produces an edge that is second to none. The issue here is to keep the edge trailing with respect to strop rotation which creates a need to control the wear pattern (the outer edge of the strop goes faster than the inner.) I find that sliding the edge off, slowly, seems to work for me, for now. I'm also fond of my Norton 8000 grit stone and leather horsebutt strop from TFWW

I'm no expert at coarse grinding. If I had a Tormek, I'd stick with it. I have a Delta 23-710 wet wheel grinder but the wheel is lumpy and it is real messy to use. There is also a no name (HF quality) 6" grinder that I have used for lawn mower blade type applications. I use diamond stones or the WS 3000 for the mid range chores.

[John TenEyck]

A slow speed bench grinder with white Al2O3 wheels handles my lathe tools and gets knicked chisels and plane irons back in shape. I use Japanese water stones for honing of chisels, plane irons, and my planer knives. They sharpen better for me than Arkansas type stones. If I were starting over, I'd probably just use a piece of plate glass with various grades of sandpaper for honing. I really don't think it matters which approach you take, and you don't need to throw much money at it. Practice and patience is the key with any of them.

[george wilson]

I have always sharpened freehand on a bench grinder for most of my life. I hate the edges that a power strop gives. I tried the one at Woodcraft several times,and it always screws up my razor sharp pocket knife. Of course,I know HOW to grind and strop,which helps.

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. I've just noticed I made an error in that a bench grinder isn't going to produce the flat bevel I had in mind for the Japanese chisels. Which means that the purchase of a general purpose workshop grinder becomes a separate matter.

Somebody has just suggested to me that if the Work Sharp doesn't remove material fast enough when grinding bevels that a belt/linisher type grinder does a good job without putting in much heat. e.g. the Robert Sorby Pro-Edge. This is quite pricey, but as it happens I have a Bosch belt sander and inversion stand which I think should do a similar job with a bit of DIY set-up - especially since I already have pretty much the full range of Tormek tool holding accessories to hand.

It's a separate issue, but if the Work Sharp proves problematical for honing i think I'll probably continue down the waterstone road. The WS has a stropping wheel too....

Thanks for the help guys

ian

[Chris Fournier]

The belt sander route is tricky. I think that you'll really have to keep the speed down to prevent overheating your Japanese chisels. Another concern is the flatness of the platen and how closely the belt conforms to the platen as you are putting pressure on one small spot with your tools not pushing down on the entire belt with the machine and force. Take a look at these issues and perhaps try a test piece of metal to make sure that the belt sander gives you a flat bevel.

[Mike Henderson]

Don't try to get a grinder that will do everything. For your Japanese chisels, use the diamond stones to sharpen them when the edge gets chipped. Otherwise, just use your water stones on them. You already have a WorkSharp so that can be used for some things, such as rough flattening the backs of chisels and plane blades and even establishing the bevel on those. For fine sharpening of those tools, use your waterstones. Also for honing between sharpenings.

For more aggressive grinding, I have an 8" grinder and find it works well for those tasks. I don't do a lot of turning but have some commercial jigs that allow me to sharpen my turning tools on the 8" grinder.

I have the setup described above and it meets all my sharpening needs. [Carving tools are different and I have something else to sharpen those.]

Mike

[ian maybury]

Testing before spending sounds like good advice that Chris. I took a look at my Bosch GBS 75AE sander (UK model) this morning and thought the same. It for example has a graphite coated anti friction pad under the belt which might be best removed. It's clear too that a top quality abrasive belt is needed - no bumps or steps, right and well graded abrasive etc.

One question I don't have an answer to is whether or not the Bosch sander belt speed (it's got variable speed) is anywhere in the same ball park as the purpose made tool grinding linishers like the Sorby. Bosch specify a belt sped of 200 - 330m/min for the sander. Which sounds promising as a quick dig suggests linishers run around 240m/min for fine finishing, around 500m/min for general metal removal and way above that for hogging off. The purpose made low speed model of Creusen tool grinder runs a white 150mm wheel at around 650m/min, while a DIY belt type tool grinder plan I found specifies around 450m/min.

'Bow wave' may well be an issue with a belt, but hopefully the Bosch puts on enough tension to avoid the worst of this. The light grinding pressure needed to avoid heating should help too. If the worst comes to the worst the belt is only needed for coarse grinding - the Work Sharp with a coarse disc in should flatten out any ripple in the bevel.

Here's links to the sander details, and to a nice looking grinding jig and tool rest done by Lee Valley/Veritas which if the sander proves suitable would make set up pretty easy. Click on the 'accessories' tab well down the Bosch page to see the mounting stand and graphite pad accessories.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.a ... 3072,45938 (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32975&cat=1,43072,45938)
http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en ... 75-ae-set/ (http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en/ocs/tools/101284/5825/belt-sander/gbs-75-ae-set/)

To ask another question. It's clear that good quality sanding belts are advisable for sharpening (smooth joint, right abrasive etc), and there's a lot of cheap junk about. Can any of you guys advise a good maker???

It seems like it's good advice too Mike to not try to do everything on one grinding set up. Changing a bevel angle for example isn't at all the same job as a mild clean up. Frustratingly I dropped one of my nice Japanese chisels on a concrete floor, it needs a chipped corner fixed which will need quite a lot of material removed.

I think I'll do a bit of experimentation with the belt sander to start with for two reasons - (a) IF it grinds flat and true it avoids the hollow grind of a wheel, and (b) belts reputedly run cool - although that I'm sure depends as you say on speed, abrasive abrasive and on going very cautiously when grinding to avoid putting heat in.

Sorby offer zirconium, aluminium oxide and ceramic abrasive belts for their pro-edge system. I've not idea and can't seem to find info on these. Does anybody have any idea of the merits or otherwise of these and other abrasive types, and whether or not they are likely to be available in sizes to suit the Bosch sander? (I found a mention saying that some of the Sorby belts use 3M abrasive stock)

ian

[george wilson]

Blue zirconia belts are what I have used for some time. They cut a LOT better,and cooler than the brown aluminum oxide belts. Cost a bit more,but are worth it as they also last longer.

I have been able to "sharpen" my COARSE 36 grit belts a bit by dragging a single point diamond dresser across them to re fracture the grit. Don't bear down too hard,to avoid cutting the cloth belt,or scouring the grit off.

[Prashun Patel]

You have a Tormek, a Worksharp, and some stones. I submit that you should be able to sharpen well with these.

Do you have a good honing guide for yr flat blades? Give the Worksharp a spin. I like working above the table with a honing guide.

If you get into turning, then I do think it makes sense to get a slow speed grinder with a Wolverine Varigrind jig.

[Bill Haumann]

Larry Williams's video on sharpening profiled irons I found to be very helpful - including cambered irons.

[Rod Sheridan]

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44884&cat=1,43072
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=66268&cat=1,43072
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=48040&cat=1,43072

Hi, I have the LV belt sander linked above, and use the Blue Zirconia belts for grinding tools.

It works very well.

I also have an 8" slow speed grinder that is used for turning tools...........Regards, Rod.

[ian maybury]

Helpful stuff guys. The issue Prashun that I perceive is that (a) my waterstones are all pretty fine (nothing suitable for e.g. changing a bevel angle), (b) the Tormek seems from my experience with it to shift material rather slowly, and anyway gives a hollow grind not suited to Japanese chisels, and (c) the Work Sharp from what I read isn't really oriented towards removal of significant amounts of metal either - e.g. as in grinding a new bevel angle.

I could buy some very coarse waterstones, but haven't seen them work and am a little sceptical as to their likely speed. (dead safe from a heating point of view though)

I'm only finding my way into this territory (and won't be doing much hands on about it for a few weeks until the shop is finished - this you could say is an advance reconnaissance mission aimed at having what's needed to hand when the time comes to get some tools set up. It can take a week or two to get stuff by mail from the US or the UK here and little is available locally) - so please feel free/don't heistate to point out if I've got something wrong.

The gap in capability that I seem to have is for a method of fairly rapid removal of metal to coarse grind flat bevels on hand tools without over heating. I'm seeing the Worksharp as a option to flatten any ripples etc in a bevel before honing. Finishing will either be by waterstone, or using the Work Sharp depending on how they perform.

Belt sharpeners sounded to me like the plan for this task, and the Bosch sander looked like it could do the job at no further cost/minimal cost since I already have one - so hence these questions.

Thanks for the input on belt types George and Rod. Blue zirconia looks it's the plan for both high carbon and alloy steels. A bit of research shows that Norton do 75 x 533mm zirconia belts in 80 and a few other grits, and not too expensive either.

I'm not yet at the stage of doing profiled blades Bill, but thank for the steer on Larry Williams - I've made a note of a source for the DVD.

PS I've just found a write up by Robert Sorby that says the Pro-Edge runs at 220m/min - so the 200 - 330m/min belt speed range on the Bosch sander seems right in the ball park.

ian

[Greg Portland]

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44884&cat=1,43072
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=66268&cat=1,43072
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=48040&cat=1,43072

Hi, I have the LV belt sander linked above, and use the Blue Zirconia belts for grinding tools.

It works very well.

I also have an 8" slow speed grinder that is used for turning tools...........Regards, Rod.
There are more commercial offerings similar to this made for metalworking (Baldor, etc.). The best setup that I've seen (using sanding belts) was a DIY project where the guy had 3-4 belts spinning at once (each has to be individually tensioned of course). This allowed him to move from grit to grit very quickly and maintain a flat face.

If you are looking for a bench grinder with round wheels I've been very pleased with my Grizzly G0596 + Norton stones. My review --> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?124434-Grizzly-G0596-Industrial-grinder-review I use this for establishing initial bevels + general grinding.

[ian maybury]

Ta Greg. There seem to be lots of linishers at all sorts of spec levels about, but I'm going to try the sander first as I already have one. We don't get Grizzly over here in Ireland, but I'm trying to avoid the hollow grind you get with vertical round wheels...

ian

[Bill White]

Why does everyone overlook the tried and true Makita horizontal sharpener? Mine is a zillion yrs old, still works like a champ, and did not cost an arm and leg.
Bill

[ian maybury]

I'd have to say Bill that I didn't know such a device existed until you posted, and I ran a search. It didn't surface when I was digging around last year before buying a WorkSharp. it's a bit more expensive than that, especially since it needs several stones but presuming it's got the right features it sounds like (given Makita's usually excellent quality) that it's very much a professional level tool and could be a very good buy.

It uses a horizontally mounted waterstone/wet wheel so you sharpen on the side. Which gives the flat bevel I'm after.

Do you know if it shifts enough metal with coarser stones to remove significant amounts of metal fairly quickly? As in e.g. re-angling chisel or planer blade bevels. It looks very promising in that Highland do a coarse 120 grit 'green' stone for it...

ian