Tablesawless shop?

[John Coloccia]

I'm seriously considering selling my SawStop and replacing it with Mini Max MM16. Anyone do this?

For those who have a world class bandsaw, can it replace a planer? For anything I need to have absolutely perfect, it goes through my Jet drum sander anyhow, but just how good a cut quality can you get off the MM16 or similar. Can you just resaw your way through life or do you really need to have the planer?

So I guess I'm seriously considering dumping my SS AND my Jointer/Planer and replacing that with a MM16 and much smaller jointer just for edge jointing.

I do very little work with sheet goods...I occasionally make shelves and the like. I don't make any large furniture. I'm trying to think out of the box to get rid of equipment I don't really think I need and replace it with something much smaller and more versatile for my uses.

Someone talk me out of this. :)

[Bobby O'Neal]

Ooooooooooooo. You make some good points. I don't know that I can counter them. But, c'mon. Its a table saw. You know. A table saw. Wouldn't it feel weird? This is a thread I'll be watching.

[Tom McMahon]

John, I don't know what you should do, but I know I could easily get by without a table saw. The only time I use the table saw is to rip material wider than 14". I use my band saw almost every day and the table saw goes unused for months at a time. I think if I was only to have a band saw I would want one with more rip capacity, 18" or 24" maybe.

[Carl Beckett]

My brother does this. He 'has' a table saw, but it sits in another building with piles of junk (err.... I mean other stuff) on top. Does all the work on the bandsaw (and nothing particularly fancy about it either.

He does a lot of antique restoration and hand tool work, and doesnt do big cabinet projects (rips sheets up with the hand circ).

So it depends on the projects you do. For a while I thought I could never do without my table saw, but after watching my brother I realized I use the tablesaw for things just because I have a table saw (vs some other method - ie bandsaw)

My suggestion - just try it out for a while. Put the tablesaw in a building and pile junk (err... I mean other stuff) on it for a few months and see how you like it.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

But John, don't you use your tablesaw as your primary work surface like the rest of us? I guess a Sawstop is an expensive table, though...

[Cary Falk]

You will get my table saw when you pry it out of my cold dead hands. I use it on every project. I use it every week. I would sell all my other tools before I would sell my table saw.

[John Coloccia]

But John, don't you use your tablesaw as your primary work surface like the rest of us? I guess a Sawstop is an expensive table, though...

I would but there's too much junk in the way...

Actually, I keep it fairly neat. I do use the table saw but I always have to clean up the edges anyhow if I need them dead flat, so I'm thinking to myself what the heck is the point if I don't need the capacity? I build small things...instruments, the occasional chair, and do almost nothing with sheet goods other than various jigs. The only time I ever have to go larger than a few inches is when I'm building shop furniture. For those occasions, I can just have the local mill cut to a cut list and just bring home a "kit"....and they do it cheap too!

[doug faist]

John-It's something I'm considered several times over the last couple years. The TS takes up a lot of space in my shop(it's a slider) and since I don't really work with sheet goods much, it doesn't get used often. Thinking seriously, with just a good bandsaw, a jointer and a planer, I can create a hole in my shop that an assembly table/tool cabinet would nicely fit into.
As was suggested, pile a bunch of stuff on your TS and try it for a few months. Results might surprise you.
Doug

[Bobby O'Neal]

I think the most interesting part of this equation is that you mentioned it could also possibly free you up from your J/P combo. That's where it gets me thinking. And that does make sense. If you can resaw 16" and then finish it off with your drum sander....that's not bad. But does the small jointer you'd get take up the added floor space you just gained? And do you trust the edges off the jointer %100? What about a rip on the band saw followed by a few passes with a #7?

[Rod Sheridan]

John, the sander isn't a replacement for a jointer and planer, a few good hand planes are.

I don't have a sander, don't need one, I have a J/P, a good assortment of hand planes, and a few cabinet scrapers.

So yes I could replace my tablesaw with a bandsaw for the solid wood furniture I build, it wouldn't be as fast or convenient, however obviously it's possible.

Furniture was made before the sander, planer, bandsaw, tablesaw etc, were invented.

As Doug suggested, try not using it for a few months..........Rod.

[ed vitanovec]

Do you have access to a friend with a tablesaw? If you do you may be okay without a table saw, I could not be without one.

[John Coloccia]

I think the most interesting part of this equation is that you mentioned it could also possibly free you up from your J/P combo. That's where it gets me thinking. And that does make sense. If you can resaw 16" and then finish it off with your drum sander....that's not bad. But does the small jointer you'd get take up the added floor space you just gained? And do you trust the edges off the jointer %100? What about a rip on the band saw followed by a few passes with a #7?

I usually clean everything up with a hand plane anyhow, though I suspect that it would be much easier to tune a small jointer to give me a perfect edge than my 12" combo machine. If the J/P and table saw are gone and replaced with a small jointer that can sit in a corner and another bandsaw, it would definitely make all sorts of room and also greatly simplify my normal work routine. It all hinges on:

1) can I really get THAT good of a cut quality off a bandsaw

2) economics...will I be spending insane amounts of money on bandsaw blades because I'm wearing them out so quickly?

What got me thinking about this is I had to make a jig with kind of small blocks of wood....much too small to safely use anything but a bandsaw on. I was able to square the wood with the bandsw and the cut quality was pretty darn good. That got me thinking that if I get a very nice bandsaw, as opposed to my Grizzly 514X2, and use a better blade than my Woodslicer, maybe the cut quality and precision will get good enough to simply dispense with TS and planer all together.

[John Tallyn]

I've often thought about getting rid of my T/S. I do build some quality "plywood" furniture, and that is about the only thing I use my T/S for. I rip all my hardwoods on the B/S, then joint with a hand plane. I have yet to figure out how to joint plywood or MDF with a plane or a jointer. I do cross cut with the T/S, but it would be easy to use the miter saw, or hand saw for any of my cross cuts, or miter cuts. If you don't use sheet goods, I really don't see a T/S as being necessary.

[Scot Ferraro]

I have also been considering this for some time...I have a track saw which takes care of cross-cuts and working with sheet goods when the need arises. I think that having a jointer and planer is a necessity. Getting perfectly square, flat and parallel pieces would be tedious and a lot of work with hand tools only and a sander. Can it be done? Yes...but I guess for me it would take too much time to get consistent results.

With a good resaw blade you can get cuts that rival a table saw for smoothness. As others have said, the biggest limiting factor I see with a bandsaw is the throat depth. If I were buying again I would opt for a 24 inch machine to get more width between the spline and the blade.

I think the advice of trying it for awhile and seeing if it works for you is a good way to test it with no risk. You are already invested in the saw and it would be a bummer to sell it and regret it later. I have made plenty of big projects without using the tablesaw and my J/P has allowed me to gang plane stock on edge to get perfectly parallel pieces.

Scot

[John Coloccia]

I think that having a jointer and planer is a necessity. Getting perfectly square, flat and parallel pieces would be tedious and a lot of work with hand tools only and a sander. \

Actually, the point was more that I'm starting to think the BS can take over for the planer, with the sander just taking out the BS blade marks if any. Why pass multiple times through a planer when you can cut once on a BS?

I was playing around tonight trying to see just how precise I can get if I really want to (I've never considered the BS a precision tool so I never bothered). With decent technique and setup, I was seeing variations measured in thousandths. I think most of that is do to some vibration because of the cheap blade and the generally lighter duty construction of the BS compared to a heavy duty Mini Max or Agazanni. I'm starting to feel good that a high quality saw with a high quality blade will perform as I need it to.

Definitely food for thought over the next couple of months.

[Scot Ferraro]

Actually, the point was more that I'm starting to think the BS can take over for the planer, with the sander just taking out the BS blade marks if any. Why pass multiple times through a planer when you can cut once on a BS?


You can definitely get pretty close, it is just more fussy IMHO. It is absolutely doable, though. I would still not want to be without both in my shop, but that is just how I like to work. I think that a wide jointer is critical to face joint wide stock. I would think that you would want at least one flat face and square edge to use this technique with some consistency. Since you already have a J/P then you have that part of the equation. I have a Laguna Driftmaster fence and Laguna guides on my saw and I am able to get parallel edges on ripped boards to be within .001" of each other and consistent, repeatable thickness veneers within a few thousandths of an inch too. So you might consider these components to whatever brand bandsaw you acquire. I love my 18 inch machine and as I said before, I wish I had a 24 inch machine instead or in addition to my current set-up. The Bandsaw is the heart of my shop and I think I can make just about anything using it.

Thanks for starting this thread...I am interested in hearing what others have to say on this topic too.

Scot

[johnny means]

A well tuned bandsaw will cut consistently thick sheets of veneer. I imagine there is no reason why it wouldn't do a pretty good job of thicknessing. The problem with using a bandsaw like this is that band saws are not nearly as predictable as a planer after changing settings, at least not the class your talking about. Also, referencing off of the edge of a wider board is surely not the best way to get parallel surfaces.

That being said, there are a lot of master craftsmen out there who only have a band saw and do amazing work.

[Rick Potter]

If you only need to joint edges, why not just use a router table?

Rick Potter

[Rick Fisher]

Wow, i agree with your thinking John.. If your going to get rid of a Saw Stop, think of going bigger than an MM-16 ..

I have an old SCM-600, 24" Bandsaw with a 5hp motor. It runs a 1" Carbide, 3tpi blade .. It will rip lumber faster than my cabinet saw, safer too..

I use it for thicknessing all the time.. 7/8" thick boards will become 1/2", leaving a nice veneer .. ( which pile up ) ..

I am not in favor of being rid of the jointer.. I work primarily with solid wood and use the jointer and Bandsaw the most.. As far as sanding goes, I always run resawn wood through the planer first.. I find running bandsawn wood through the sander tedious.. Tend to get greedy and burn the belt.. lol

In my shop.. if I had to lose a tool, it would be the table saw.. probably replace it with a track saw.. Ya got me thinking now..

I sold off a 1.5hp x 18" Delta bandsaw when I got this old SCM 24" .. I gotta say, its like a whole different world of capability.. Its the most used machine in my shop .. followed by the jointer..

[John Coloccia]

Further musings:

Just for fun, I went downstairs this morning, grabbed a piece of rough Walnut and squared it using the BS and some hand planes. I don't think I was much faster than doing it by machine, but I wasn't any slower either. The final result was a surface ready for finish or glueup. The entire process was a lot more pleasant. I ended up with a left over walnut veneer, instead of chips in my dust collector. I could easily do this process with a piece as small as I wish....I often have a lot of waste because I need to run large pieces through my machines to keep it safe. I could do this with a cubic inch of wood if I wanted to. With the addition of a resaw sled, I can see where a bandsaw can easily replace a jointer and planer for squaring rough wood, and put a more than adequate straight edge on a piece that would only require minimal cleanup with a hand plane or small jointer, at least on pieces that are less than a two or three feet long.

For a handful of pieces at a time, especially when they're all different thicknesses and widths (which mine normally are), I think the traditional jointer/planer/tablesaw route would struggle to keep up with me. If I had to make 30 pieces, all the same width and thickness, machinery would bury me.

Anyhow, as others have suggested I don't plan on doing anything right this second. I need to give it some thought and do some experimenting.

If I did keep a planer around, it would be of the small, benchtop variety...maybe the General with the helical head. The BS easily gives a surface flat enough to go either right into the drum sander for final cleanup, a couple minutes of attacking with a handplane, or as the reference surface for a planer, making the wide jointer completely unnecessary for the kind of work I do.

[Chris Fournier]

I started out woodworking building guitars. My first 5 machine tools did not include a TS. After 1 1/2 years like this I bought a TS. I would not entertain the idea of living without one even if I was dedicated to guitars as my sole enterprise.

I think that the idea that a bandsaw can repeatably be used to create square objects is pretty optomistic. I would not be without a BS but it is primarily a breakout tool that can do some joinery work as well. Of course a clever and dedicated WWker can likely press it into many services that I don't but it can't replace a TS.

A well fixtured and jigged tablesaw is a tour de force for a guitar maker and I simply can't imagine being without one.

Perhaps you should mothball the machines that you are contemplating doing without and try to get on like that for a while before you sell them. Hand building guitars is enjoyable but I quickly found out that it is best to make a small run of instruments rather than one at a time; well this is how I found that I could make more money anyways. These small runs suited machine tools for the grunt work.

When it comes to finely crafted guitars, even with a shop full of machine tools, there's plenty of time for hand tool work.

[Joe Angrisani]

....The BS easily gives a surface flat enough to go either right into the drum sander for final cleanup.....

John... Interesting thread. Certainly wouldn't give up my table saw, but if it works for you, yee ha. Can you comment a little on what the drum sander goes through, sandpaper-wise, for a certain amount of wood? Just in general, looking back.

[John Coloccia]

John... Interesting thread. Certainly wouldn't give up my table saw, but if it works for you, yee ha. Can you comment a little on what the drum sander goes through, sandpaper-wise, for a certain amount of wood? Just in general, looking back.

Not sure. The sandpaper lasts a very long time if I don't abuse it. It wears out quickly on thin, exotic veneers like Ebony but I don't know how else you would do those other than by hand (which I do also). I don't generally use it to thickness, except guitar sides, backs and tops where I use it to precisely thickness. Usually, I use it after glueup to get a perfect surface, and things like that. I often use it after the planer because the figured woods I tend to work with tear out and respond better to sanding or hand work. The large glueups don't fit through my planer anyway, so that's not even an option. I find myself using the planer to get a rough dimension and then working from there.

Unlike Chris, I have very few table saw fixtures. The one I have that I use most is for slotting fingerboards and that one lives on a dedicated table saw (no fence, no wings), which I would keep. I have a "fixture" for making kerfed linings, but I can easily do that on the smaller table saw as well. I have a tapering fixture that would work just as well on any bandsaw. The only process I can think of that would require a completely different methodology is the mortise in an acoustic neck block. I would normally make that on a table saw. I can easily make it with a simple router jig, or just cut the cheeks on the BS and chop the rest with a chisel. I have a chop saw that I can use for making accurate miters if nescessary.

[Chip Lindley]

I have always thought of the TS as one of the most primary machines in the shop. The BS is very secondary to me. YMMV, since each man's shop is his Castle, and He is King.

But if you are already having troubles with resaw cuts bowing in thickness, I suggest that replacement BS blades may eat you alive, instead of the wood! If a BS blade loses it's set it is useless. If a planer/jointer blade gets a nick in it, it can quickly be shifted, OR the ridge can easily be sanded or scraped off.

I love my machine tools! Each has a job it does best, fastest. IMO, less is NEVER more!

[Andrew Gibson]

John when I got my BS a few months ago and started using it, I was surprised how much I like using it over the table saw. I wanted it to be able to cut curved pieces for chairs and such and to resaw. Then I found I could saw veneer down to about 1/16" with decent blade... as you probably know I have sense started making ukuleles out of scrap, and it is getting really addictive. It is quite easy to take a piece off the bandsaw and hit it with a hand plane and bring it to a consistent thickness.

I have surfaced the tops sides and backs for the 2 ukes I have made by hand, they may not be 100% perfect thickness but so far I am really happy with the results.
I think in your situation I would not hesitate to much to dump the table saw. the joiner/planer I would think hard about, but then again I do large work as well and long for a wide joiner to allow me to quickly face joint any wide stock I come across. At the moment I surface most my hand. I think it is an important skill to have because you never find boards that are to wide for you to surface.

[Jim Foster]

I can't imagine not having a TS. As an alternative to completely getting rid of one, a friend of mine had a small, very nice table saw, can't remember the brand (15 years ago) but it was expensive and pretty petite and could easily be rolled into a corner.

[Von Bickley]

Everybody has different needs and everybody does different types of woodworking. I have always loved having a TS and have built 2 shops around a TS.

I am in the TS group and will always want to have a TS as the main tool in the shop.

[Prashun Patel]

I like ripping on the bandsaw as much as the next guy, but how do you all do dados, rabbets, and non-thru cuts? Is yr whole experiment predicated on having a router table?

If I were you, I'd get the MM, and KEEP your Sawstop permanently loaded with a dado stack.

[Jim Matthews]

There are several aftermarket jigs to make repetitive cuts of the same thickness with the BS.
If the blade cuts straight, and the workpiece is advanced perpendicular to the blade - the pieces could be fairly uniform.
One of the devices indexes from the blade toward the open side of the throat, so the column is not the limit for width of the piece to be cut.

I suppose the finish will depend largely on blade sharpness and feed rate. If you have a thickness sander, that could be done quickly.
The Gizmo that caught my attention (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9d85MPu9wU&feature=related)

[John Coloccia]

I like ripping on the bandsaw as much as the next guy, but how do you all do dados, rabbets, and non-thru cuts? Is yr whole experiment predicated on having a router table?

If I were you, I'd get the MM, and KEEP your Sawstop permanently loaded with a dado stack.

I never use the dado cutter. I have a nice Dial a Dado sitting here that has exactly one experimental use on it, and will be in the classifieds soon actually. I've zero use for it and honestly I'm not even really sure why I bought it other than I wanted to update my old wobbler, which also never gets used. For dados, I use a router...I find it far easier and quicker. Ditto for rabbets.

Anyhow, I don't make a lot of dados, rabbets and through cuts...hardly ever, actually.

I'm liking that there are a lot of you making some very powerful arguments for keeping everything the way it is. It's giving me a lot to think about. So far, though, I'm not really finding a lot of it all that compelling for my particular situation but it's all extremely helpful.

[scott spencer]

...but just how good a cut quality can you get off the MM16 or similar. Can you just resaw your way through life or do you really need to have the planer?

...

I sure wouldn't want to be without my TS, but it can and does work for lots of people. I suspect you can get the dimensions close with a BS, but I've never witnessed a BS (MM16 or other) cut smooth enough for a glue ready edge straight off the BS, which is something a TS does pretty easily with a moderately good blade. The cut edges from a BS would almost certainly need to be smoothed prior to gluing .

[Tom Winship]

This type of thinking could result in a high unemployment rate in China, just like ours. We can't have that, can we?

[Tony Bilello]

The type of work we do usually determines the tools we use. The tools we use are sometimes determined by the space we have available. A tablesaw is usually the most important tool in most shops. I would suggest you hang onto the table saw for a few more months and just don't use it. If you don't need it or miss it, then go ahead and sell it.

[David Keller NC]

John - A different take from a fellow neander:

You don't really need the TS since you know how to cut joinery by hand (or router), and you have the handplanes, knowledge (and I assume) the workbench necessary to get a perfect edge on a board - far better than you can ever get on a TS. Personally, I always thought the "glue line rip" marketing phrase was ridiculous - I would never glue up boards off of a TS, no matter how well tuned.

For sheet goods, you can take the approach that I usually take. Since my TS has an outfeed restricted to 7 feet, I rip sheet goods with a circular saw, a sheet-goods blade, and an 9' long guide for along-the-length, and a 54" guide for across-the-width.

However, I would recommend not getting rid of your planer. Like you, I use hand planes to finish boards, and also rough-square boards that are too big to fit through the planer or go across the joiner. However, the planer takes up very little room, and I'd go nuts if I had to finish-surface every single board that I resaw, as it's a lot of work.

But you could easily do without the jointer, and mostly my DJ-20 sits gathering dust.

Finally, before you do this, consider your current workbench. If you're going to build another one, you might want to hang on to your stationary tools for a little while longer. It's a lot of work to hand-surface everything for a bench (which I'm currently doing - a 24" wide slab won't fit on my machines).

Finally, (and I think you've already come to this conclusion), almost any BS can easily substitute for a TS for ripping anything, so long as you know how to use a handplane to joint the edge.

[Art Mulder]

But... But... But... I LIKE having a shop full of tools! :D;):p








ps: I just scored a (2nd hand) G0513X the other month, which is not even hooked up yet, so I am rather looking forward to what it can do for me in the shop!

[scott spencer]

David - I've never found it necessary to buy a special "Glue Line Rip" blade, but I've never had trouble with a glue joint made right off the saw that had a decent blade on it. The TS can leave a better gluing edge than the jointer, which can leave a scalloped edge if you're not careful. A hand plane can leave a better edge than either, but you don't need a shiny edge to glue it up, just has to be a little smooth....most good 30T, 40T, 50T, and 60T blades do well, and some 24T blades are sufficient.

[John Coloccia]

David - I've never found it necessary to buy a special "Glue Line Rip" blade, but I've never had trouble with a glue joint made right off the saw that had a decent blade on it. The TS can leave a better gluing edge than the jointer, which can leave a scalloped edge if you're not careful. A hand plane can leave a better edge than either, but you don't need a shiny edge to glue it up, just has to be a little smooth....most good 30T, 40T, 50T, and 60T blades do well, and some 24T blades are sufficient.

You candle your joints off the table saw and see NO light?

[scott spencer]

You candle your joints off the table saw and see NO light?

Absolutely, but I flatten and straighten the stock on a jointer first, then rip it to final width.

[michael case]

John,
I don't glue off the saw. But, I use a Freud glue line rip because I can rip pieces and they are ready to install. I just ripped 8/4 maple legs with a Freud glue line rip. It was an easy and quick one-step operation and they are ready to install right off the saw. We both have the same saw so I know yours has this kind of precision and power. I think you would regret giving up your table saw. For the rest of your life, do really want to be jointing every edge then ripping on a band saw and then have to either joint or drum sand the sawn edge on every leg, rail and stile you produce? Also think about all the other processes, such as dadoing, precise crosscuting etc. that your saw can perform with more ease and precision than any other machine. Its also not hard to imagine that some day you may want or need to mill up sheet goods quickly and precisely. You will really be kicking yourself then. I know the Jet combo thing is a drag, and has you thinking out of the box, but why shoot yourself in the foot and end up with less capability and convenience. I don't know what your finances are looking like, but maybe you could dump the jet and get something decent. I believe Hammer is currently having a sale on jointer/planer combos. Best Wishes

[John Coloccia]

John,
I don't glue off the saw. But, I use a Freud glue line rip because I can rip pieces and they are ready to install. I just ripped 8/4 maple legs with a Freud glue line rip. It was an easy and quick one-step operation and they are ready to install right off the saw. We both have the same saw so I know yours has this kind of precision and power. I think you would regret giving up your table saw. For the rest of your life, do really want to be jointing every edge then ripping on a band saw and then have to either joint or drum sand the sawn edge on every leg, rail and stile you produce? Also think about all the other processes, such as dadoing, precise crosscuting etc. that your saw can perform with more ease and precision than any other machine. Its also not hard to imagine that some day you may want or need to mill up sheet goods quickly and precisely. You will really be kicking yourself then. I know the Jet combo thing is a drag, and has you thinking out of the box, but why shoot yourself in the foot and end up with less capability and convenience. I don't know what your finances are looking like, but maybe you could dump the jet and get something decent. I believe Hammer is currently having a sale on jointer/planer combos. Best Wishes

It's less for getting rid of the combo than it is for clearing out room. The TS and JP take up enormous amounts of room, especially when you consider the clearances required to actually use them.

[Chris Fournier]

Most useful router jigs that allow you to cut joinery start with stock prepared on the TS!

I've rip glued off the table saw for many years using rip glue blades. While there may be an element of adspeak to the phrase I can say that 9 times out of 10 I get beautiful glue ups right off the TS. The 1 time out of 10 where I don't get a great joint comes down to the frisky nature of the wood being prepared and it would give me fits if I was using a handplane or power jointer as well.

I use the table saw and a very simple jig to cut my neck scarf joints. A couple swipes with a handplane and I'm gluing the joint up. Just advocating for the TS I guess!

[michael case]

They do take up room John sure enough. In an ideal world (Hey! Pedroia just hit a two run homer) Oh where was I? In an ideal world you have 10' all round the blade. That is a Lot of space! I barely have 8' on my ts outfeed and I have to do my cross cuts on the right side since I don't have the left hand clearance. Big Papi just hit a three run homer - got to go watch the end of the Sox game! By the way John, I see your in Conn. I'm in Boston. Are a baseball fan? and if so are you the side of the Angels or the recently-swept Evil Empire in the Big Apple?

[Mike Archambeau]

John;

I have the MM16 BS. I have had it for a little over one year. I have been using it a lot, and my TS is sitting quietly now. I do have an 8 inch jonter, and a 13 inch planer, both get a lot of use. For the few times I need to cut sheet goods, I reach for my track saw. During the last year I used about 400 board feet of oak to makes some pieces of furniture. The carbide blade on the band saw shows no signs of slowing down. It cuts that oak like butter. During that same time the knives on my jointer and planer needed to be sharpened, but the band saw carbide blade is going strong. I have a Tri-master carbide blade on the MM16. The cut quality is superb.

I don't think there is a table saw anywhere in the world that can cut as fast as a good bandsaw. And the kerf is narrower than the table saw, so less dust and less waste. I have a little work cell setup in my basement shop. A compund sliding miter saw to cut to rough length, then the jointer, next the band saw, then the planer to get final thickness. Very little walking required to move between the machines, and it makes the dust collection easy.

Like you I use my router for dados. I did recently use my table saw to cut the dados for drawer bottoms, since I had twelve drawers. But I am finding all kinds of ways to avoid using the table saw.

If you see the shops of the boat builders up in Maine, they have their band saw at the center of the action instead of a table saw like a cabinet shop would have. This makes sense because of the kind of parts they are making. Since you are making instruements, I think your band saw idea is great. And if you enjoy using your hand planes, it all adds up.

The MM16 that I bought was lightly used. I paid $1800 for it and it had the Tri-master carbide blade on it. I have no way of knowing how much it was used, but the machine looked like new, and so did the other tools in the shop of the guy I bought it from. I made the trip from CT down to Hershey, PA and brought it home in U-haul box trailer, with the saw on its spine. The saw travelled really well this way. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. It is the finest tool in my workshop.

[John Coloccia]

They do take up room John sure enough. In an ideal world (Hey! Pedroia just hit a two run homer) Oh where was I? In an ideal world you have 10' all round the blade. That is a Lot of space! I barely have 8' on my ts outfeed and I have to do my cross cuts on the right side since I don't have the left hand clearance. Big Papi just hit a three run homer - got to go watch the end of the Sox game! By the way John, I see your in Conn. I'm in Boston. Are a baseball fan? and if so are you the side of the Angels or the recently-swept Evil Empire in the Big Apple?

If forced to choose, I would say I'm a Yankees fan. Having grown up in New York, it's more accurate to say I really disliked the Red Sox for a long time. These days, I don't really watch baseball anymore. They lost me at the strike and never really got me back.

[John Coloccia]

John;

I have the MM16 BS. I have had it for a little over one year. I have been using it a lot, and my TS is sitting quietly now. I do have an 8 inch jonter, and a 13 inch planer, both get a lot of use. For the few times I need to cut sheet goods, I reach for my track saw. During the last year I used about 400 board feet of oak to makes some pieces of furniture. The carbide blade on the band saw shows no signs of slowing down. It cuts that oak like butter. During that same time the knives on my jointer and planer needed to be sharpened, but the band saw carbide blade is going strong. I have a Tri-master carbide blade on the MM16. The cut quality is superb.

I don't think there is a table saw anywhere in the world that can cut as fast as a good bandsaw. And the kerf is narrower than the table saw, so less dust and less waste. I have a little work cell setup in my basement shop. A compund sliding miter saw to cut to rough length, then the jointer, next the band saw, then the planer to get final thickness. Very little walking required to move between the machines, and it makes the dust collection easy.

Like you I use my router for dados. I did recently use my table saw to cut the dados for drawer bottoms, since I had twelve drawers. But I am finding all kinds of ways to avoid using the table saw.

If you see the shops of the boat builders up in Maine, they have their band saw at the center of the action instead of a table saw like a cabinet shop would have. This makes sense because of the kind of parts they are making. Since you are making instruements, I think your band saw idea is great. And if you enjoy using your hand planes, it all adds up.

The MM16 that I bought was lightly used. I paid $1800 for it and it had the Tri-master carbide blade on it. I have no way of knowing how much it was used, but the machine looked like new, and so did the other tools in the shop of the guy I bought it from. I made the trip from CT down to Hershey, PA and brought it home in U-haul box trailer, with the saw on its spine. The saw travelled really well this way. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. It is the finest tool in my workshop.

Now we're talking. I think I will almost certainly bring in a smaller jointer and a smaller helical head planer. That, the MM16, my 514X2, 22-44 drum sander and chop saw should really do it for me.

[Tony Bilello]

You candle your joints off the table saw and see NO light?

Is this that surprising to you?
I have an 8" joiner that is rarely ever used.

[Jim Becker]

You might be able to get away without a table saw, using a band saw for many cutting operations and complimenting that with a track-saw, such as the Festool system, for when you need to do precision cuts in sheet goods. But that drum sander is NOT going to replace your J/P in any way, shape or form. Unless you plan on also working a lot with hand planes, you'll want to have that J/P to clean up, joint flat and thickness any solid stock you cut with the bandsaw. Even with a very nice carbide blade, the surface you get with the bandsaw isn't "glue line" smooth. A small jointer isn't going to get you parallel surfaces, so you'd also need a small planer, too. Personally, I wouldn't give up my J/P combo unless I was forced to consolidate space for some tragic reason. I also wouldn't like to lose my table saw (happens to be a slider) but can imagine making do with my MM bandsaw, J/P and my Festool setup if I had to.

[Rick Fisher]

I often work with both the Bandsaw and jointer running at the same time.. Rip on the bandsaw, and immediately joint the edge.. Much of it is due to a shortage of space.. Eliminates a pile to be jointed..

I have cut drawer bottoms of baltic birch on my bandsaw, rather than use the table saw.. Where the table saw comes in handy is dado's .. I can do them other ways, but a table saw and dado blade is a tough combination to beat for dado's ..

[jim mills]

Sooner or later, you'll need a table saw. Why not sell the SS, get the MMxx, and look for a nice used artisan saw. Use it as a table, tool stand, catch all, whatever....sooner or later, you'll find a use for it.

[John Coloccia]

Is this that surprising to you?
I have an 8" joiner that is rarely ever used.

Yes, it surprises me. I see things come off the table saw ready for glue up, depending on your tolerance for gaps and clamping pressure. I don't usually see them come off perfect.

[Bill Huber]

Yes, it surprises me. I see things come off the table saw ready for glue up, depending on your tolerance for gaps and clamping pressure. I don't usually see them come off perfect.

I can see if you are ripping boards for a panel and you don't turn the boards I can see that they may not be perfect. But I think if you turn the boards over I would say they are just as perfect as a jointer can do. I can not believe how smooth my glue line blade can cut a board.

I see no difference then with a planner, if the fence is not exactly 90° and you do not turn the board face to the fence the joint will not be perfect.

I have done jointing with the router table, my little jointer and the table saw and I can not see any difference in them at all. the table saw is so much faster, you cut the board to size and that's it.

[Brian Kincaid]

Sooner or later, you'll need a table saw. Why not sell the SS, get the MMxx, and look for a nice used artisan saw. Use it as a table, tool stand, catch all, whatever....sooner or later, you'll find a use for it.

I respectfully disagree. I have made large pieces of furniture (beds, etc) in a tablesaw-less shop for years now. I use a bandsaw, tracksaw, jointer, planer, router, and hand tools. I don't miss the table saw at all. Haven't seen a table saw cut yet that couldn't be made with a bandsaw, tracksaw, or trackrouter. Have MADE many cuts that would have been unsafe or impossible on a table saw.

I see lots of jigs to make table saws do interesting things (tenon jig, sliding tables, auxiliary fences, etc) but if a bandsaw or tracksaw is not perfectly suited out of the box many folks pipe in 'you need a table saw!'

John, I don't build instruments, but you are a hand-tool user. Go for it!

-Brian

[Peter Quinn]

Sure you can get by without a TS, especially if you buy THIS BS......http://www.lagunatools.com/bandsaws/bandsaw-swing

[Ben West]

A great read from an old post about this very issue....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?56074-Band-Saw-vs.-Table-Saw…-heart-of-the-shop.

[Karl Card]

I dont know, a shop without a table saw is almost like having a wife without sex organs... But I do understand about room. I just had to redo my whole layout because I added a RAS. I think the others had a good thought, kind of like try without before you sell....lol

[Kirk Poore]

I use my TS for ripping about 90% of the time, and a bandsaw would work for much of those cuts. The rest of the time I use it to make tenons using a tenoning jig. I get good, consistent results with the jig, which I have never been able to get with a fence and stops on a bandsaw.

Kirk

[Brian Tymchak]

I'm seriously considering selling my SawStop and replacing it with Mini Max MM16. Anyone do this?
......
Someone talk me out of this. :)

John, get some counseling quick! Or sit down and watch a full weekend marathon of NYW reruns.. Pretty soon, we'll be seeing your posts over in the Neander forum.. ;)

[Greg Portland]

I'm seriously considering selling my SawStop and replacing it with Mini Max MM16. Anyone do this?

For those who have a world class bandsaw, can it replace a planer? For anything I need to have absolutely perfect, it goes through my Jet drum sander anyhow, but just how good a cut quality can you get off the MM16 or similar. Can you just resaw your way through life or do you really need to have the planer?

So I guess I'm seriously considering dumping my SS AND my Jointer/Planer and replacing that with a MM16 and much smaller jointer just for edge jointing.

I do very little work with sheet goods...I occasionally make shelves and the like. I don't make any large furniture. I'm trying to think out of the box to get rid of equipment I don't really think I need and replace it with something much smaller and more versatile for my uses.

Someone talk me out of this. :)You will need something to thickness the boards as they come off the bandsaw... they are not going to be perfect. A good wide belt or drum sander -can- do this work but your problem is going to happen when you need to take off 1/16" of wood. This is a big cut on a drum sander and a pain to do on a bandsaw (much slower than a planer). IMO you're going to need to keep the planer. If space is a problem then consider selling the drum sander and planer and get a Woodmaster 4-in-1 (planer/sander/moulder/ripsaw).

I worked for a few months without a table saw during a move. I used a 18" bandsaw, Festool TS55 and a chopsaw and was able to maintain the same quality (made a large built-in bookshelf with trim). Some things to remember:

- Cutting speed between the bandsaw and table saw are about the same
- Bandsaw blades are typically not resharpened so blade costs will be more expensive (definitely go carbide for longevity)
- Cut quality will be better on the table saw ("glue ready" edges, etc.).
- The TS55 will give you glue-ready cuts but it's not ideal for ripping narrow boards. You can fix this by putting a similar thickness board under the rail for support (still not as optimal as a TS or bandsaw).

If you are dealing with small workpieces then some quick plane or sanding work to smooth out any rough surfaces is not a big deal. Depending on your projects, I think your idea is feasible.

Do you own a small bandsaw or know someone locally who does? I would recommend that you try a project with just the tools you're considering to really see the problems that might come up.

[Greg Portland]

OK, I see you already are working with the handtools and BS. Do a few projects and see if it works for you.

You could always get this bandsaw with the sliding table :eek:: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaTTGP0nqVc

[Nick Cook]

You should totally get rid of that crappy Sawstop. How much you want for it :D

[Nick Cook]

You should totally get rid of that crappy Sawstop. How much you want for it :D

[Zahid Naqvi]

about a couple years ago I was forced to give up my TS due to relocation. As you can tell from my inclinations I am more hand tools oriented, have no aspirations to be productive and enjoy the process as much as the end result. Having said that I have been TS less for the last several weeks while building the bench I recently completed. Here's my opinion, some of which may have already been stated above

1. A solid TS will make rip cut which can be taken straight to glue up without any further cleanup required. A solid BS will rip nicely but never to this level, you may have to take a few passes with a hand plane to be sure.
2. A solid TS will cut a variety of joints with help from appropriate jigs. A BS will allow you to cut some joints but not all (angled miters, dados, tenons etc.) and may need some fitting with planes/chisels.
3. The big advantage of a TS is repeatability, if you are cutting multiples of the same size/kind the TS will fly through it.

Technically speaking a BS and a good set of handtools can do everything a TS can and then some. At the end of the day if your projects are well defined in scope (which it seems they are) you can easily determine if a TS is something you can live without. Put it aside through a few projects and see how it pans out. I sold mine and have not missed it so far. Shooting boards and shoulder planes can do wonders.

[Jim Laumann]

Do you have access to a friend with a tablesaw? If you do you may be okay without a table saw, I could not be without one.

+1 on this idea. When I lived in the Twinn Cities, I had the table saw, my neighbor had the band saw - we used each others saws as needed.

Jim

[Mike Archambeau]

After making a strong case that the band saw is capable of doing most of what a table saw can do and then some, my worst fear happened. After finishing a basic cut on my band saw, I turned to place the cut piece on my bench. I heard the band saw motor cut out and the blade coast to a stop. I hit the stop button, then tried to restart the saw. No luck it would not start. I looked at all the ripping and resawing that I still needed to do, and glanced over to the table saw to consider setting up that tool instead. After thinking about this for a few minutes, I decided to take a coffee break. As I thought about the prospect of returning to the tablesaw or getting on with the trouble shooting of the band saw, I decided to get the band saw running. Luckily it was simple to get the band saw back up and running. I happily went back to my woodworking, thankful that my prefered tool was once again aailable. Alas the table saw sat quietly in the dark corner.

Once a person shifts over to the band saw, I think it is natural to be reluctant to return to the table saw. That mule can kick and that still makes me wary.

[Carl Beckett]

One consideration: I have seen more band saw accidents than table saw accidents. I read an article once reinforcing this safety issue that normalized for hours used and showed a much higher accident rate on the band saw than a table saw.

Dont know if safety is a consideration, but if so you might investigate the difference in accident rates.

[Monte Milanuk]

Interesting... the general impression that I have always gotten from everything I've read/seen is that the majority of woodshop accidents anymore usually involve the tablesaw - usually with the guard removed. I've seen the bandsaw recommended by a number of writers and other 'experts' as being less accident-prone.

I can see how a BS could still be problematic, depending mainly on the use - not lowering the guide blocks and leaving excess exposed blade area, people getting a little too close and familiar with the tool and not respecting it... but given that it can't pick the work piece up and spit it back at you seems to be a point in favor of the BS.

[Mike Schuch]

I had a tablesawless shop for many years. My father had one for many many years before that. We both did all our work on Delta turret arm radial arm saws (Ok, mine is actually a Redstar). I now have Powermatic 65 and 71 table saws. I really have no need for two. I had a nice Jet 18" bandsaw. I gave it to my dad. He later sold it. I found no use for a bandsaw in my shop. It couldn't do anything that I couldn't do with a RAS or jigsaw. I once resawed a really nice walnut burl. After spending a weekend in the shop for a couple boards I decided I would BUY my lumber.

I would never give up my cheap little reliable well functioning 6" harbor freight jointer... well except to upgrade to a bigger one but I have never been able to justify the expense. I love my Taiwanese 15" planer but I don't think I have ever used more than 6" of it at any one time... well maybe I have a couple of times.

It all comes down to the type of work you do, how you learned to accomplish particular tasks and how you prefer to work.

[Carl Beckett]

The two really serious injuries I saw on the bandsaw were both when the operator pushed his hand through the blade. One was trying to go too fast (believe it or not, it was cutting up chickens where there was a quota to hit). The other incident was a guy that had his hand slip off the top of a piece he was feeding and the hand went through.

All very fast.

I did have a piece of pipe I was cutting once twist out on me (I usually use a vice, upside down, when cutting round stock). This was plastic pvc and grabbed and rolled. The good news is that I had my fingers well away.

Most of the statistics show bandsaw accidents at a much lower occurance. But they dont normalize for time used:

from tablesawaccidents dot com:

n 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that “93,880 saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms”. Of these 52,000 (55%) involved stationary saws (table saw 38,000 (73%), miter saw 7,640 (15%), band saw 4060 (8%), and radial arm saw 2,300 (4%).

[Bobby O'Neal]

John, did you ever wind up going one way or the other?

[John Coloccia]

John, did you ever wind up going one way or the other?

The table saw is still in the shop, but it rarely gets used. I use it to slot fingerboards and to break down stock. I don't really use it for anything else. I just brought a CNC machine into the shop and soon that will be doing all of my fingerboards and things like that. I even took the router out of the extension because I just don't use a router table for anything anymore. I'm seriously considering cutting the rails to give me exactly 2' (I NEVER go wider than that), and then building an assembly table/bench around it. I'm also seriously considering just finding a place to store it for a few months and see how I REALLY do without it. Bottom line, though, is that if it wasn't for the occasional bit of plywood that I have to cut for jigs and fixtures, I think I would pretty much have 0 use for the TS at this point. If I were starting again from scratch, I would have a nice MM20 for resawing/straight cuts, my Grizzly G0514X2 for curve cutting, and a track saw for breaking down sheet goods.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I like the idea of the short rails and a table surround. But it really sounds like you've basically negated it.

[John Coloccia]

Well, the decision is made. A friend has been wanting my SawStop for a while. I called him tonight and let him know he can have it. We have to negotiate price, but that's that. If it falls through with him, it will go for sale here and on Craigslist. I will be a tablesawless shop. In my future is a nice Minimax at some point. For now, just clearing out room and reclaiming my shop space will suit me.

[Jim Foster]

How big is your shop? Two years ago, I could never imagine living without a TS. Now, I think it would be fun to try for a while. Of course I need to get a BS first. :)



Well, the decision is made. A friend has been wanting my SawStop for a while. I called him tonight and let him know he can have it. We have to negotiate price, but that's that. If it falls through with him, it will go for sale here and on Craigslist. I will be a tablesawless shop. In my future is a nice Minimax at some point. For now, just clearing out room and reclaiming my shop space will suit me.

[John Coloccia]

How big is your shop? Two years ago, I could never imagine living without a TS. Now, I think it would be fun to try for a while. Of course I need to get a BS first. :)

It's about 500 sq. ft. Basically...well, literally....it's a converted 2 car garage. It seems like a lot of room, but my spray booth took up a big corner, and an oil tank makes another corner useless. Dust collection and a door take up the other two corners. Two posts right down the center mess up the rest. When people come to see it, they think it's huge, but the reality is that it requires some serious thought to make usable.

[phil harold]

It will still be a table saw
just a different type of saw

I like the idea but I would want more than one bandsaw
changing blades could be a pain

[Denny Rice]

I sure wouldn't want to be without my TS, but it can and does work for lots of people. I suspect you can get the dimensions close with a BS, but I've never witnessed a BS (MM16 or other) cut smooth enough for a glue ready edge straight off the BS, which is something a TS does pretty easily with a moderately good blade. The cut edges from a BS would almost certainly need to be smoothed prior to gluing .

I agree with Scott completely.

[Erik Loza]

...I've never witnessed a BS (MM16 or other) cut smooth enough for a glue ready edge straight off the BS... The cut edges from a BS would almost certainly need to be smoothed prior to gluing .


I agree with Scott completely.

Just sayin'.....

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samfeedingbandsaw2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/Samwithnewlaminatestrips.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SeparatingstripsofLyptus.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Bandsaw%20Works/SamplestripsofLyptus.jpg

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jim German]

If you've ditched the table saw and the router table, what are you using to make dado's?

[Brian Brightwell]

I find this thread very interesting. I would never dream of a shop without a tablesaw. I have and use three. This is my band saw. I don't think I am getting the performance from it that some of you are getting from yours.

http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/075_zps86413777.jpg

[John Coloccia]

If you've ditched the table saw and the router table, what are you using to make dado's?

I don't make dados. I don't run a cabinet shop. I build guitars. Occasionally, I'll make something furniture-like. If I had to, I would either use a router or I would follow my layout lines with a saw and finish off the dado with chisels. I never make dados, though, and even if I did, I wouldn't make them on the table saw anyway.

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

John, unplug your SawStop, and planer, put them in a corner and don't use them for 2 or 3 months, then, make your decision. Hope you make the right one.

[Erik Loza]

If you've ditched the table saw and the router table, what are you using to make dado's?

Jim, I don't believe everyone should go out and ditch their table saws tomorrow but there are lots of things you can do on a good bandsaw, better and more safely, than you can on a standard table saw: Tenons, ripping strips or long stock, etc. Personally, I would prefer to use the BS whenever possible because I find it safer (I am not a especially great woodworker, so will take as much help as I can get, LOL...). No chance of kickback, don't need ear protection, basically unlimited height for ripping stock, etc.

Just my 2-cents,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Holbrook]

I just got a notice from Laguna. They say they are clearing out demo models for a warehouse move. They claim to be offering a substantial discount on floor/demo bandsaw....might be something to check out.

I almost never use my TS. I do sheet goods and smaller cuts that need to be very accurate with a Festool Track saw (with attached vac system) or a Millers Falls/Langdon 74C Miter box I restored. A 27" backsaw in a MF miter box is no slouch at cutting small/medium boards! The hand miter saw is much faster to set up and makes SOOO much less mess. I use my Laguna LT14 SUV for resawing or long rips I don't want to tackle with a hand saw. For the last year or two my TS table has had sticky sandpaper all over the surface for flattening plane bodies...I could/have totally lived without it. I find a Festool table/saw, MF Miter box and bandsaw much more versatile tools for the work I do. I hate to crank up the TS, one cut tends to leave my underground shop in a purple haze for hours. I feel much safer using the retractable Festool saw or the MF miter box too. Most important to me is I just enjoy a more hands on feel vs "machining". Building hands on musical instruments with more hands-on tools seems only natural to me.

[John Coloccia]

Jim, I don't believe everyone should go out and ditch their table saws tomorrow but there are lots of things you can do on a good bandsaw, better and more safely, than you can on a standard table saw: Tenons, ripping strips or long stock, etc. Personally, I would prefer to use the BS whenever possible because I find it safer (I am not a especially great woodworker, so will take as much help as I can get, LOL...). No chance of kickback, don't need ear protection, basically unlimited height for ripping stock, etc.

Just my 2-cents,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

People also need to understand that I'm not your typical woodworker. I don't really make furniture. I don't use plywood other than to make shelves and jigs. I just brought a CNC machine into the shop so if I get REALLY desperate, I can always cut something out on that, but this decision came WAY before bringing that in, anyhow. The key is having a good bandsaw. My G0514X2 is a good bandsaw, and with the ResawKing blade on it, it's a really good bandsaw. What I want is an MM16, which is a world class bandsaw, and I'd turn my 514X2 into a dedicated curve cutting machine. I have a 555 for curve cutting, but it's a little underpowered and not anywhere near as smooth as the 514x2. THEN, I would be extremely very happy!

[Jeff Duncan]

Obviously your the best judge for what you need to work in your space. My thought is, (if your friend doesn't take the saw), put a plywood top on it and use it as an assembly bench for a while, at least several months. You may find you don't use it at all, or you may find you need it for something you hadn't thought of? My first though is not musical instruments, but actual projects around the house. Having the tablesaw can be invaluable there.

I personally feel the table saw is THE most flexible tool in a small shop. With a handful of jigs there are so many things you can do easily that would take a lot more effort with any other tool. But again that's just me;)

good luck,
jeffD

[John Coloccia]

Just FYI for everyone that thinks I should unplug the table saw for a couple of weeks: I started this thread almost two years ago :) It's a done deal. The TS is the least useful tool in my shop for what I do. If I ever where to have another TS, it would be in the form of a European Slider combo machine, with a shaper and a Jointer/Planer.

What I MIGHT do is bring a Festool MFT and track saw into the shop if I find myself working with sheet goods. Even just the MFT on it's own make a great assembly and work table.

[Pat Barry]

Interesting John, Why did you buy the Sawstop in the first place?

[John Coloccia]

Interesting John, Why did you buy the Sawstop in the first place?

Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you have a wood shop? :) Sawstop wasn't my first table saw. It was just the latest.

Also, I was nowhere near as skilled with a bandsaw then as I am now, and I wasn't running a dedicated resaw blade. Don't know what you have in your shop, but running a decent bandsaw with something like a Resaw King in it is a completely different experience than a 1/4" Olson blade in a Craftsman bandsaw. Once I saw the performance I could get, it became an easy decision. The clincher was bringing the CNC into the shop. I can no longer simply ignore this monster tablesaw in the middle of shop. It now took up space that I desperately needed, so something had to be done.

[Pat Barry]

My bandsaw is a pretty old unidentified cast iron 14 inch model with a small table and under powered motor. I was able to modify it so a craftsman blade from sears would fit. It cost me $35 bucks several years ago and I hardly use it - wonder why?? Maybe it would be a good move to upgrade to something better because the idea of making bookmatched parts interests me. Right now, by the time I get the two pieces flat after resawing them, they don't look bookmatched anymore.

[Ryan Mooney]

If I ever where to have another TS, it would be in the form of a European Slider combo machine, with a shaper and a Jointer/Planer.

Another alternative TS type device that might be a useful addition to your type of workflow would be a Hammond Glider Trim-O saw (especially if you can either find one converted to a standard arbor get it converted). It has the precision of a slider - since it is one, just a very small one (and the weight/stability of old iron) but takes up VASTLY less room.

Not trying to convince you to go back to the dark side of course :D Just thought it might be an interesting option to consider given the type of work you do.

[John Coloccia]

Another alternative TS type device that might be a useful addition to your type of workflow would be a Hammond Glider Trim-O saw (especially if you can either find one converted to a standard arbor get it converted). It has the precision of a slider - since it is one, just a very small one (and the weight/stability of old iron) but takes up VASTLY less room.

Not trying to convince you to go back to the dark side of course :D Just thought it might be an interesting option to consider given the type of work you do.

I'm always looking out for one, actually. I have several friends how have them. What a cool little saw.

[Jim German]

Does your bandsaw cut at a similar speed to the sawstop?

[John Coloccia]

Does your bandsaw cut at a similar speed to the sawstop?

Oh, much faster for most cuts. I just have a contractor SS. The PCS wasn't available at the time, so it was either this or the ICS, and the ICS was just not in the budget. For most thing, my bandsaw cuts as fast as I dare push. It's really incredible what a good BS will do with a good blade. It's like a hot knife through butter except gnarly wood never binds. It moves, and it looks ugly on the other side, but the BS just slices right through it.